MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

It sounds to me like you're not really listening. Macs have a terrible
reputation. Having seen several of them around, seen them "sail" or
"motor," and talked to a few owners, I wouldn't consider getting any
of them. There are better boats for the same money. Several people
have said basically the same thing over and over.

Are you really that thick?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

This note concerns the issue of intellectual honesty.

As a follow-up to and summary of the many responses generated by this
question, several hundreds of usually negative, usually dogmatic
statements were posted regarding the MacGregor 26M, but none were posted
by anyone who had actually sailed the 26M. Also, as far as I can
determine, none were posted by anyone who had even spoken to someone who
had actually sailed the boat. (Correct me if I missed one.)
Additionally, there was a long string of comments by posters who had
obviousaly confused various previous MacGregor boats with the current
26M (which incorporates major, substantive changes from the previous
models). Additionally, most writers were not willing, even when
corrected by knowledgeable members of the group, to admit that they were
talking about another boat and didn't actually know what the 26M entailed.

In other words, as a summary of this long and convoluted series of
pontifications, few participants had the intellectual honesty to admit
that they really didn't know what the hell they were talking about in
the first place. - Of course, this doesn't meant that the 26M is a great
boat. - But it does say something about the character and (lack of)
intellectual honesty of many who posted under this subject string.

Jim


Jim Cate wrote:


I'm considering the new MacGregor 26M for use in the Galveston-Houston
area and would like to get comments from anyone who has seen or sailed
on the boat. Or, anyone else.

For sailing and motoring in this area, the MacGregor seems to have some
advantages. - I'm aware of the largely negative comments on this ng
regarding the MacGregor line. However, for the intended use, e.g.,
sailing and motoring with small kids (grandchildren), fishing, and doing
some limited coastal cruising, the Mac 26M has the advantage that it
will motor to a desired destination at around 24 mph and can therefore
get to a desired sail or fishing area, and return, much more quickly
than a fixed keel boat. This tends to minimize the "are we home yet"
issue with small kids and non-sail-type guests. Also, in view of the
hundreds of square miles of shallow bay waters in our area, the boat's
ability to anchor in 15 inches of water, or to beach at one of the
islands, would be an obvious advantage. (The 40-foot Valiant, although
a great boat under sail offshore, was limited to around 8-10 knots under
motor or sail. So, it took us five hours to get from the Kemah marina to
the gulf, and we had to be careful to keep a sharp watch on the depth
finder.)

OK, the comparison is admittedly somewhat ludicrous. For the uses
anticipated, however, the Mac may be a practical and fun choice. Also,
the new "M" model seems to include some substantive improvements. - It
now has both lead and the removable water ballast, has a fin keel (which
I'm assuming may help in pointing), and a structural keel housing
extending vertically from the deck to the ballast area. The boat
reportedly includes additional fiberglass layers and other structural
and ergonomic improvements derived from their experience over the years.
As to it's sailing abilities, there is a video on the Mac web site
comparing the 26M and the 26X under sail, and the new model is clearly
much faster. (Assuming they didn't stage the race or doctor the video.)
With a large genoa, it looks like it might be a fast sailing boat; it
can reportedly plane under sail.

A further consideration is that, if I bought the MacGregor, I would
still have the opportunity to charter a wide variety of heavier boats
kept under charter in our area. Conversely, I couldn't purchase a
conventional fixed-keel boat and also charter a boat similar to the Mac.
(I'm not into motor boats, or staying out in the Texas sun for hours on
a powered fishing boat.) A negative factor is that the new Mac is
fairly expensive when fully equiped, comparable in price to many used 30
- 32-foot boats.

Comments from anyone regarding the sailing and motoring characteristics
of the new 26M would be appreciated.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

jim, buy the Mac and motor it to your heart's content. HOWEVER, you are
forbidden from buying an EPIRB. That would be unethetical on your part and
would doom you to Hell for eternity.



This note concerns the issue of intellectual honesty.

As a follow-up to and summary of the many responses generated by this
question, several hundreds of usually negative, usually dogmatic
statements were posted regarding the MacGregor 26M, but none were posted
by anyone who had actually sailed the 26M. Also, as far as I can
determine, none were posted by anyone who had even spoken to someone who
had actually sailed the boat. (Correct me if I missed one.)
Additionally, there was a long string of comments by posters who had
obviousaly confused various previous MacGregor boats with the current
26M (which incorporates major, substantive changes from the previous
models). Additionally, most writers were not willing, even when
corrected by knowledgeable members of the group, to admit that they were
talking about another boat and didn't actually know what the 26M entailed.

In other words, as a summary of this long and convoluted series of
pontifications, few participants had the intellectual honesty to admit
that they really didn't know what the hell they were talking about in
the first place. - Of course, this doesn't meant that the 26M is a great
boat. - But it does say something about the character and (lack of)
intellectual honesty of many who posted under this subject string.

Jim


Jim Cate wrote:


I'm considering the new MacGregor 26M for use in the Galveston-Houston
area and would like to get comments from anyone who has seen or sailed
on the boat. Or, anyone else.

For sailing and motoring in this area, the MacGregor seems to have some
advantages. - I'm aware of the largely negative comments on this ng
regarding the MacGregor line. However, for the intended use, e.g.,
sailing and motoring with small kids (grandchildren), fishing, and doing
some limited coastal cruising, the Mac 26M has the advantage that it
will motor to a desired destination at around 24 mph and can therefore
get to a desired sail or fishing area, and return, much more quickly
than a fixed keel boat. This tends to minimize the "are we home yet"
issue with small kids and non-sail-type guests. Also, in view of the
hundreds of square miles of shallow bay waters in our area, the boat's
ability to anchor in 15 inches of water, or to beach at one of the
islands, would be an obvious advantage. (The 40-foot Valiant, although
a great boat under sail offshore, was limited to around 8-10 knots under
motor or sail. So, it took us five hours to get from the Kemah marina to
the gulf, and we had to be careful to keep a sharp watch on the depth
finder.)

OK, the comparison is admittedly somewhat ludicrous. For the uses
anticipated, however, the Mac may be a practical and fun choice. Also,
the new "M" model seems to include some substantive improvements. - It
now has both lead and the removable water ballast, has a fin keel (which
I'm assuming may help in pointing), and a structural keel housing
extending vertically from the deck to the ballast area. The boat
reportedly includes additional fiberglass layers and other structural
and ergonomic improvements derived from their experience over the years.
As to it's sailing abilities, there is a video on the Mac web site
comparing the 26M and the 26X under sail, and the new model is clearly
much faster. (Assuming they didn't stage the race or doctor the video.)
With a large genoa, it looks like it might be a fast sailing boat; it
can reportedly plane under sail.

A further consideration is that, if I bought the MacGregor, I would
still have the opportunity to charter a wide variety of heavier boats
kept under charter in our area. Conversely, I couldn't purchase a
conventional fixed-keel boat and also charter a boat similar to the Mac.
(I'm not into motor boats, or staying out in the Texas sun for hours on
a powered fishing boat.) A negative factor is that the new Mac is
fairly expensive when fully equiped, comparable in price to many used 30
- 32-foot boats.

Comments from anyone regarding the sailing and motoring characteristics
of the new 26M would be appreciated.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

heey, katies. way to go. dead bang on center.

Jim...MacGregor's have a poor reputation. They have made some very bad
boats. Most of us here have experience sailing many different brands of
boats and have been around sailors and sailboats for years and years. Your
analogy about intellectual honesty is bunkum. Fact of the matter is, if a
product gets negative brand recognition because of lack of quality, it will
take 75% more effort to convince the knowledgeable that that company might
then, out of the blue, produce a good product. If you were in the market
for a subcompact car, and you read the history of the Yugo, spoke with
people who had purchased Yugo's, and seen the statistics about their rate of
repair and other problems, would you then include Yugo in the cars you are
planning to test drive? I think not. Time is money, and wating time is
wasting money. Yes, there are flukes...once in a while a company with a bad
reputation comes up with a single good item...Hunter comes to mind
here...but for the most part, Hunter's are crap, and that is based on
comparison of facts. macGregor's , for the most part, are crap. Now quit
wasting everyone's time with your specious arguments and go learn how to
sail.

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Jim, this troll is all used up. Move on.


"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

This note concerns the issue of intellectual honesty.

As a follow-up to and summary of the many responses generated by this
question, several hundreds of usually negative, usually dogmatic
statements were posted regarding the MacGregor 26M, but none were posted
by anyone who had actually sailed the 26M. Also, as far as I can
determine, none were posted by anyone who had even spoken to someone who
had actually sailed the boat. (Correct me if I missed one.)
Additionally, there was a long string of comments by posters who had
obviousaly confused various previous MacGregor boats with the current
26M (which incorporates major, substantive changes from the previous
models). Additionally, most writers were not willing, even when
corrected by knowledgeable members of the group, to admit that they were
talking about another boat and didn't actually know what the 26M entailed.

In other words, as a summary of this long and convoluted series of
pontifications, few participants had the intellectual honesty to admit
that they really didn't know what the hell they were talking about in
the first place. - Of course, this doesn't meant that the 26M is a great
boat. - But it does say something about the character and (lack of)
intellectual honesty of many who posted under this subject string.

Jim


Jim Cate wrote:


I'm considering the new MacGregor 26M for use in the Galveston-Houston
area and would like to get comments from anyone who has seen or sailed
on the boat. Or, anyone else.

For sailing and motoring in this area, the MacGregor seems to have some
advantages. - I'm aware of the largely negative comments on this ng
regarding the MacGregor line. However, for the intended use, e.g.,
sailing and motoring with small kids (grandchildren), fishing, and doing
some limited coastal cruising, the Mac 26M has the advantage that it
will motor to a desired destination at around 24 mph and can therefore
get to a desired sail or fishing area, and return, much more quickly
than a fixed keel boat. This tends to minimize the "are we home yet"
issue with small kids and non-sail-type guests. Also, in view of the
hundreds of square miles of shallow bay waters in our area, the boat's
ability to anchor in 15 inches of water, or to beach at one of the
islands, would be an obvious advantage. (The 40-foot Valiant, although
a great boat under sail offshore, was limited to around 8-10 knots under
motor or sail. So, it took us five hours to get from the Kemah marina to
the gulf, and we had to be careful to keep a sharp watch on the depth
finder.)

OK, the comparison is admittedly somewhat ludicrous. For the uses
anticipated, however, the Mac may be a practical and fun choice. Also,
the new "M" model seems to include some substantive improvements. - It
now has both lead and the removable water ballast, has a fin keel (which
I'm assuming may help in pointing), and a structural keel housing
extending vertically from the deck to the ballast area. The boat
reportedly includes additional fiberglass layers and other structural
and ergonomic improvements derived from their experience over the years.
As to it's sailing abilities, there is a video on the Mac web site
comparing the 26M and the 26X under sail, and the new model is clearly
much faster. (Assuming they didn't stage the race or doctor the video.)
With a large genoa, it looks like it might be a fast sailing boat; it
can reportedly plane under sail.

A further consideration is that, if I bought the MacGregor, I would
still have the opportunity to charter a wide variety of heavier boats
kept under charter in our area. Conversely, I couldn't purchase a
conventional fixed-keel boat and also charter a boat similar to the Mac.
(I'm not into motor boats, or staying out in the Texas sun for hours on
a powered fishing boat.) A negative factor is that the new Mac is
fairly expensive when fully equiped, comparable in price to many used 30
- 32-foot boats.

Comments from anyone regarding the sailing and motoring characteristics
of the new 26M would be appreciated.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Scott, you certainly don't have to read or respond to my notes.
It's rather easy to click the down arrow and move on to another topic.

Jim

Scott Vernon wrote:

Jim, this troll is all used up. Move on.


"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

This note concerns the issue of intellectual honesty.

As a follow-up to and summary of the many responses generated by this
question, several hundreds of usually negative, usually dogmatic
statements were posted regarding the MacGregor 26M, but none were posted
by anyone who had actually sailed the 26M. Also, as far as I can
determine, none were posted by anyone who had even spoken to someone who
had actually sailed the boat. (Correct me if I missed one.)
Additionally, there was a long string of comments by posters who had
obviousaly confused various previous MacGregor boats with the current
26M (which incorporates major, substantive changes from the previous
models). Additionally, most writers were not willing, even when
corrected by knowledgeable members of the group, to admit that they were
talking about another boat and didn't actually know what the 26M entailed.

In other words, as a summary of this long and convoluted series of
pontifications, few participants had the intellectual honesty to admit
that they really didn't know what the hell they were talking about in
the first place. - Of course, this doesn't meant that the 26M is a great
boat. - But it does say something about the character and (lack of)
intellectual honesty of many who posted under this subject string.

Jim


Jim Cate wrote:


I'm considering the new MacGregor 26M for use in the Galveston-Houston
area and would like to get comments from anyone who has seen or sailed
on the boat. Or, anyone else.

For sailing and motoring in this area, the MacGregor seems to have some
advantages. - I'm aware of the largely negative comments on this ng
regarding the MacGregor line. However, for the intended use, e.g.,
sailing and motoring with small kids (grandchildren), fishing, and doing
some limited coastal cruising, the Mac 26M has the advantage that it
will motor to a desired destination at around 24 mph and can therefore
get to a desired sail or fishing area, and return, much more quickly
than a fixed keel boat. This tends to minimize the "are we home yet"
issue with small kids and non-sail-type guests. Also, in view of the
hundreds of square miles of shallow bay waters in our area, the boat's
ability to anchor in 15 inches of water, or to beach at one of the
islands, would be an obvious advantage. (The 40-foot Valiant, although
a great boat under sail offshore, was limited to around 8-10 knots under
motor or sail. So, it took us five hours to get from the Kemah marina to
the gulf, and we had to be careful to keep a sharp watch on the depth
finder.)

OK, the comparison is admittedly somewhat ludicrous. For the uses
anticipated, however, the Mac may be a practical and fun choice. Also,
the new "M" model seems to include some substantive improvements. - It
now has both lead and the removable water ballast, has a fin keel (which
I'm assuming may help in pointing), and a structural keel housing
extending vertically from the deck to the ballast area. The boat
reportedly includes additional fiberglass layers and other structural
and ergonomic improvements derived from their experience over the years.
As to it's sailing abilities, there is a video on the Mac web site
comparing the 26M and the 26X under sail, and the new model is clearly
much faster. (Assuming they didn't stage the race or doctor the video.)
With a large genoa, it looks like it might be a fast sailing boat; it
can reportedly plane under sail.

A further consideration is that, if I bought the MacGregor, I would
still have the opportunity to charter a wide variety of heavier boats
kept under charter in our area. Conversely, I couldn't purchase a
conventional fixed-keel boat and also charter a boat similar to the Mac.
(I'm not into motor boats, or staying out in the Texas sun for hours on
a powered fishing boat.) A negative factor is that the new Mac is
fairly expensive when fully equiped, comparable in price to many used 30
- 32-foot boats.

Comments from anyone regarding the sailing and motoring characteristics
of the new 26M would be appreciated.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

katysails wrote:
Jim...MacGregor's have a poor reputation. They have made some very bad
boats. Most of us here have experience sailing many different brands of
boats and have been around sailors and sailboats for years and years. Your
analogy about intellectual honesty is bunkum. Fact of the matter is, if a
product gets negative brand recognition because of lack of quality, it will
take 75% more effort to convince the knowledgeable that that company might
then, out of the blue, produce a good product. If you were in the market
for a subcompact car, and you read the history of the Yugo, spoke with
people who had purchased Yugo's, and seen the statistics about their rate of
repair and other problems, would you then include Yugo in the cars you are
planning to test drive? I think not. Time is money, and wating time is
wasting money. Yes, there are flukes...once in a while a company with a bad
reputation comes up with a single good item...Hunter comes to mind
here...but for the most part, Hunter's are crap, and that is based on
comparison of facts. macGregor's , for the most part, are crap. Now quit
wasting everyone's time with your specious arguments and go learn how to
sail.

Katy, first regarding your comment that I need to go learn to sail, as
previously mentioned, I have sailed a 37-ft O'Day, 40-ft Valiant (weeks
charter), Cal 34, Cat 30 Endeavor 32, etc., etc. I'm seeking to extend
my sailing experience.

Regarding the reputation of the MacGregors, I realize that it isn't the
same type of boat as fixed keel boats such as the Valiant and the O'Day.
However, they entail certain obvious advantages for sailing in bay
areas and with respect to their ability to get to a desired sailing area
quickly, and to return quickly, and to getting through marginal channels
and limited deep water sailing areas such as we have in he Galveston bay
area. My note concerned the new model, in which the hull is
significantly different from previous models, as previously described. I
don't see news reports of hundreds of MacGregor sailors killed or
injured, actually. If someone who has actually sailed the 26M under
differing weather conditions tells me that it has minimal sailing
capability, or that it is likely to fall apart in a force three wind, or
that MacGregor owners are being routinely lost at sea because of defects
in the boat, then that information would be meaningful and relevant. But
so far I haven't seen such a report, and, from speaking with several who
have sailed it, the boat seems to be faster and more responsive and more
stable in chop under power than the previous models.

Whether or not the Valiant is a "better" boat depends on your particular
criteria, however. With respect to safety for coastal cruising, the Mac
seems to have several advantages. - If the lower hull is compromised,
the inner hull remains. If both hulls are compromised, or if the side
hull is penetrated as in a collision, the integrated flotation keeps the
Mac afloat. By contrast, if the hull of the Valiant (or other keep
boats) is compromised, or if the through-hulls leak, or if substantial
water enters the boat for some other reason, the keel of the Valiant
will quickly pull it to the bottom. In this respect, the MacGregor is a
"better" boat. (Galveston-Houston has its share of drunk red-necks
racing around the bays at 60 mph while downing another six-pack.)

Regarding access to good sailing areas, the MacGregor can plane out to
the desired sailing are at around 15-18 knots, whereas the Valiant,
while considered relatively fast, only make around 7-8 knots under
power. So, with respect to convenience, and ability to get to a
preferred sailing area within a given day or weekend, the MacGregor is a
"better" boat. The ability to return to port quickly, ahead of impending
weather, is also a safety factor in the Mac. When we sailed the Valiant,
there were several channels in the Galveston area that weren't clearly
marked and in which we could not maneuver safely at low tide. So, we
had to turn back from a preferred anchorage we were trying to reach. In
contrast, the dagger board of the MacGregor can be raised incrementally
as desired, with a minimum draft of around 18 inches. Again, with
respect to its ability to maneuver in shallow or unmarked channels, or
to anchor in shallow water, or beach on shore to permit grandkids to
play on the sand, the MacGregor is a "better" boat, since the Valiant
must be kept in much deeper water and doesn't have the versatility of
the Mac for such shallow water activities.

I have no doubt that the Valiant has better sailing characteristics,
will point higher, and would be more comfortable in heavy weather. - In
that sense, it is a "better" boat than the MacGregor (although I
understand that the MacGregor can actually plane under sail and may
therefore be faster under sail in some conditions). However, if I can't
get out to the blue water on weekends because of the requisite hours of
motoring time it takes to get from our area to the blue water, then the
fine sailing characteristics of the Valiant wouldn't be of much benefit
to me. (With the exception of being able to talk about it on the
newsgroup.) Under those circumstances, if I could only get out once or
twice a year, it may make more sense to charter a larger boat for
extended cruising when I can time off for a week or so.

Again, an evaluation of the quality of the boat depends on the criteria
used in the evaluation, and how the boat will be used.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

It sounds to me like you're not really listening.


It sounds to me like you're not really listening.

Jim




Macs have a terrible
reputation. Having seen several of them around, seen them "sail" or
"motor," and talked to a few owners, I wouldn't consider getting any
of them. There are better boats for the same money. Several people
have said basically the same thing over and over.

Are you really that thick?

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

JAXAshby wrote:

jim, buy the Mac and motor it to your heart's content. HOWEVER, you are
forbidden from buying an EPIRB. That would be unethetical on your part and
would doom you to Hell for eternity.





Would I be permitted to buy a chart plotter, depth-knot, autosteering,
or VHF?

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

As the NG moderator, I do.

SV

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
Scott, you certainly don't have to read or respond to my notes.
It's rather easy to click the down arrow and move on to another topic.

Jim

Scott Vernon wrote:

Jim, this troll is all used up. Move on.


"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

This note concerns the issue of intellectual honesty.

As a follow-up to and summary of the many responses generated by this
question, several hundreds of usually negative, usually dogmatic
statements were posted regarding the MacGregor 26M, but none were posted
by anyone who had actually sailed the 26M. Also, as far as I can
determine, none were posted by anyone who had even spoken to someone who
had actually sailed the boat. (Correct me if I missed one.)
Additionally, there was a long string of comments by posters who had
obviousaly confused various previous MacGregor boats with the current
26M (which incorporates major, substantive changes from the previous
models). Additionally, most writers were not willing, even when
corrected by knowledgeable members of the group, to admit that they were
talking about another boat and didn't actually know what the 26M
entailed.

In other words, as a summary of this long and convoluted series of
pontifications, few participants had the intellectual honesty to admit
that they really didn't know what the hell they were talking about in
the first place. - Of course, this doesn't meant that the 26M is a great
boat. - But it does say something about the character and (lack of)
intellectual honesty of many who posted under this subject string.

Jim


Jim Cate wrote:


I'm considering the new MacGregor 26M for use in the Galveston-Houston
area and would like to get comments from anyone who has seen or sailed
on the boat. Or, anyone else.

For sailing and motoring in this area, the MacGregor seems to have some
advantages. - I'm aware of the largely negative comments on this ng
regarding the MacGregor line. However, for the intended use, e.g.,
sailing and motoring with small kids (grandchildren), fishing, and
doing
some limited coastal cruising, the Mac 26M has the advantage that it
will motor to a desired destination at around 24 mph and can therefore
get to a desired sail or fishing area, and return, much more quickly
than a fixed keel boat. This tends to minimize the "are we home yet"
issue with small kids and non-sail-type guests. Also, in view of the
hundreds of square miles of shallow bay waters in our area, the boat's
ability to anchor in 15 inches of water, or to beach at one of the
islands, would be an obvious advantage. (The 40-foot Valiant, although
a great boat under sail offshore, was limited to around 8-10 knots
under
motor or sail. So, it took us five hours to get from the Kemah marina
to
the gulf, and we had to be careful to keep a sharp watch on the depth
finder.)

OK, the comparison is admittedly somewhat ludicrous. For the uses
anticipated, however, the Mac may be a practical and fun choice. Also,
the new "M" model seems to include some substantive improvements. - It
now has both lead and the removable water ballast, has a fin keel
(which
I'm assuming may help in pointing), and a structural keel housing
extending vertically from the deck to the ballast area. The boat
reportedly includes additional fiberglass layers and other structural
and ergonomic improvements derived from their experience over the
years.
As to it's sailing abilities, there is a video on the Mac web site
comparing the 26M and the 26X under sail, and the new model is clearly
much faster. (Assuming they didn't stage the race or doctor the video.)
With a large genoa, it looks like it might be a fast sailing boat; it
can reportedly plane under sail.

A further consideration is that, if I bought the MacGregor, I would
still have the opportunity to charter a wide variety of heavier boats
kept under charter in our area. Conversely, I couldn't purchase a
conventional fixed-keel boat and also charter a boat similar to the
Mac.
(I'm not into motor boats, or staying out in the Texas sun for hours on
a powered fishing boat.) A negative factor is that the new Mac is
fairly expensive when fully equiped, comparable in price to many used
30
- 32-foot boats.

Comments from anyone regarding the sailing and motoring characteristics
of the new 26M would be appreciated.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

However, they (mac 26's) entail certain obvious advantages for sailing

not that anyone but you can see.