BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

DSK wrote:

Also, be prepared to explain why _your_ explanation disagrees with the
explanation of the professional naval architects who devised this measure.

MC wrote:
Oh but it does. It is closely related to the definition of the
metacentric radius. Do you know what that is?


No but I know several different ways of calculating, and few methods of
approximating with less rigorous measurements, metacentric height. If you
calculate metacentric height for a series of all angles through 180, you would
get a sort of radius. And it is a very very different thing from the capsize
screen. Let's make sure we're talking about the same thing...

Well that explasins everything. The metacentric radius is really basic
naval architecture -look it up and then you'll understand the most
common capsize screen formula -which is not what you've posted below.


CSR==(Beam / Disp ) ^ 0.333

with a lower result being more desirable when comparing similar vessels. Ring
any bells?


Yes, but you got the equation wrong. LOL The correct equation is
directly proprtional to the metacentric radius (the formula of which I
gave you before and which defines the initial stability) with the
assumption that the boat is quite slab sided (tumblehome is small). The
idea of the screen was to try to give a simple estimate (from numbers
that most people have readily to hand) of how stable the boat might be
upside down with the assumption that the water plane lateral moment
would not be very different from that expected from just the beam and
typical prismatics and sections. Empirical tests showed that this
assumption was reasonable for a rough and ready estimate -but only as a
guide. It's not an estimate acceptable here for offshore certificates.
In fact, if one were to follow the logic of this formula there would be
almost no difference between the initial stability inverted and the
right way up as it does not take any account of the VCG or coach roof.
For example, it predicts some inverted stability for a vessel with a 180
lps -e.g. a life boat -and that's clearly wrong! That anyone would
seriously use this formular in trying to decide seaworthiness is a most
unwise practice -naval architects don't!

OK?


Cheers

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. jaxineering
 

dougies, I never used the term "order of magnitude" in this context. It just
is not appropriate, and if you knew what one is you would know that as well.

btw, look up the term "asymptote" -- AND frickin' understand its meaning --
before you use it again.

Last week, in a discussion on another newsgroup, he said "Hull speed doesn't
have an
asymptote, unless it gets up to within the order of magnitude of infinity."
Cost a
fortune in spilled coffee, that one did.

DSK

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

.... Ring
any bells?



MC wrote:
Yes, but you got the equation wrong.

No, that's the right equation. I see the problem... you don't know WTF
you're talking about.

The correct equation is
directly proprtional to the metacentric radius

Instead of blabbing about the metacentric radius, how about looking at a
well known and widely used formula, and taking the time to understand it?

But no, you'd rather babble, that way you can continue to feel smart.

.. That anyone would
seriously use this formular in trying to decide seaworthiness is a most
unwise practice -naval architects don't!

In the absence of more detailed measurements, it's better than nothing.
And it is a useful measure when comparing vessels of similar size and form.

BTW the CSR is not used anywhere I know of for an offshore rating
certificate, but it is occasionally used as a screen for allowing
vessels to enter a particular race.

DSK

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

MC wrote:

Well if you know the answer then post it.

I may or may not know the answer, but at least I know the question.

... I'll be impressed

Impressing you is not among my concerns.

.... if you can
correctly state the boundary conditions for vortex shedding.

Are you talking about a starting vortex, a tip vortex, or trailing edge
turbulence?

DSK

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. jaxineering
 

MC wrote:
He had a good point but his argument became unglued.

That's not all that has come unglued

DSK

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

dougies, the capsize ratio is widely discredited as a predictor of anything but
being the capsize ratio. You can find some pretty horrible boats with ratio's
as low as 1.75 and far better boats with 1.95+.

the capsize ratio takes too little into consideration to be much more than a
quite guide.

.... Ring
any bells?



MC wrote:
Yes, but you got the equation wrong.

No, that's the right equation. I see the problem... you don't know WTF
you're talking about.

The correct equation is
directly proprtional to the metacentric radius

Instead of blabbing about the metacentric radius, how about looking at a
well known and widely used formula, and taking the time to understand it?

But no, you'd rather babble, that way you can continue to feel smart.

.. That anyone would
seriously use this formular in trying to decide seaworthiness is a most
unwise practice -naval architects don't!

In the absence of more detailed measurements, it's better than nothing.
And it is a useful measure when comparing vessels of similar size and form.

BTW the CSR is not used anywhere I know of for an offshore rating
certificate, but it is occasionally used as a screen for allowing
vessels to enter a particular race.

DSK

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

a tip vortex, or trailing edge
turbulence?

a tip vortex is not th same thing as trailing edge tubulence, though each
orginates for the same reason. Different dynamics, different effects.

go read another Popular Mechanix article.

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

JAXAshby wrote:

dougies, the capsize ratio is widely discredited as a predictor of anything but
being the capsize ratio.

"Discredited"? By whom? Please explain... as of the fall of 2003, there
were a number of offshore races around here that required a certain CSR
for certain classes.


... You can find some pretty horrible boats with ratio's
as low as 1.75 and far better boats with 1.95+.

Well, that's very true given the wide lattitude in defining "horrible"
and "better."


the capsize ratio takes too little into consideration to be much more than a
quite guide.

Kind of like your posts, huh?

DSK

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

a tip vortex, or trailing edge
turbulence?


JAXAshby wrote:
a tip vortex is not th same thing as trailing edge tubulence,

Very good Jax! I can see why MC refers to you for these difficult
questions.... a tip vortex forms at the tip, and a vortex formed by
trailing edge turbulence is at the trailing edge... shucks why didn't I
think of that!

... though each
orginates for the same reason.

Which is? (sound of Jeapordy music)

.. Different dynamics, different effects.

Wait a minute, I thought you said they formed for the same reason?


go read another Popular Mechanix article.

Is that where you get your technical info?

DSK

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

... You can find some pretty horrible boats with ratio's
as low as 1.75 and far better boats with 1.95+.

Well, that's very true given the wide lattitude in defining "horrible"
and "better."

I'm afraid he's correct. Quite a bit of junk out there with good capsize
ratings. And quite a few nice boats on the margin or outside of it.

RB

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

JAXAshby wrote:

dougies, the capsize ratio is widely discredited as a predictor of anything
but
being the capsize ratio.

"Discredited"? By whom?

everyone, dougies, but you.

Please explain... as of the fall of 2003, there
were a number of offshore races around here that required a certain CSR
for certain classes.

and some races won't allow a Westsail 32 in (too small) but will allow a Hunter
33 (big enough). idiots abound, dougies.


... You can find some pretty horrible boats with ratio's
as low as 1.75 and far better boats with 1.95+.

Well, that's very true given the wide lattitude in defining "horrible"
and "better."

many truly horrible Hunter boats have c/r below 2.00, even down to about 1.75
IIRC.

Any, dougies, should you have taken care to learn what capsize ratio is ou
would have learned that is is nothing but the ratio of the displacement to beam
times some unnatural acts. It says not a thing about where that displacement
is in relation to the buoyancy. It is the kind of thing that makes a
non-too-good sailor like a Cabo Rico 38 look good in the telling.



the capsize ratio takes too little into consideration to be much more than
a
quite guide.

Kind of like your posts, huh?

DSK

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

a vortex formed by
trailing edge turbulence is at the trailing edge.

you don't understand the meaning of the word, "vortex", for there is no vortex
at the trailing edge. check the dictionary.

.. Different dynamics, different effects.

Wait a minute, I thought you said they formed for the same reason?


they do, but the **dynamics** AND the **effects** are different. which word
didn't you understand?

DSK

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

many truly horrible Hunter boats have c/r below 2.00, even down to about 1.75
IIRC.

And don't forget the well respected J Boats which off have a bad ratio rating.

RB

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

a vortex formed by
trailing edge turbulence is at the trailing edge.



JAXAshby wrote:
you don't understand the meaning of the word, "vortex", for there is no vortex
at the trailing edge. check the dictionary.

The one that said you were wrong about "vortices"?

Anyway, a vortex can certainly form at a trailing edge. In general, ones
that do are temporary.... but then MC asked about shedding and he wasn't
(I assume) talking about dogs.

One way to suppress a tip vortex is to deliberately induce a vortex
slightly inboard along the trailing edge. That is part of what makes
wing keels work.



.. Different dynamics, different effects.

Wait a minute, I thought you said they formed for the same reason?



they do, but the **dynamics** AND the **effects** are different. which word
didn't you understand?

Oh, I understand the words just fine. Your explanation is a little bit
fuzzy, though. Would you clarify?

DSK

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

jesus h. crhist dougies! knock it off! that was the worst bull**** I have
EVER seen you come up with!

a vortex formed by
trailing edge turbulence is at the trailing edge.



JAXAshby wrote:
you don't understand the meaning of the word, "vortex", for there is no
vortex
at the trailing edge. check the dictionary.

The one that said you were wrong about "vortices"?

Anyway, a vortex can certainly form at a trailing edge. In general, ones
that do are temporary.... but then MC asked about shedding and he wasn't
(I assume) talking about dogs.

One way to suppress a tip vortex is to deliberately induce a vortex
slightly inboard along the trailing edge. That is part of what makes
wing keels work.



.. Different dynamics, different effects.

Wait a minute, I thought you said they formed for the same reason?



they do, but the **dynamics** AND the **effects** are different. which
word
didn't you understand?

Oh, I understand the words just fine. Your explanation is a little bit
fuzzy, though. Would you clarify?

DSK

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

JAXAshby wrote:
jesus h. crhist dougies! knock it off! that was the worst bull**** I have
EVER seen you come up with!

Considering that I don't need to "come up with bull****" that wouldn't
be hard.

DSK

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

DSK wrote:

.... Ring
any bells?



MC wrote:
Yes, but you got the equation wrong.


No, that's the right equation. I see the problem... you don't know WTF
you're talking about.


So you really aren't very good at maths are you? Fancy not seeing that
the equation you posted is wrong even after I pointed it out. Do you
really want to be further humiliated by my spelling out our error? Think
carefully Doug, the position of the parentheses are important.



The correct equation is directly proprtional to the metacentric radius


Instead of blabbing about the metacentric radius, how about looking at a
well known and widely used formula, and taking the time to understand it?

But no, you'd rather babble, that way you can continue to feel smart.



Babble? I think it's you that's babbling. Look up the word.


.. That anyone would seriously use this formular in trying to decide
seaworthiness is a most unwise practice -naval architects don't!


In the absence of more detailed measurements, it's better than nothing.
And it is a useful measure when comparing vessels of similar size and form.

BTW the CSR is not used anywhere I know of for an offshore rating
certificate, but it is occasionally used as a screen for allowing
vessels to enter a particular race.

So, we agree on the first but I know of no race there the capsize screen
is used in that way. Can you give an example?

Cheers

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

DSK wrote:


MC wrote:


Well if you know the answer then post it.


I may or may not know the answer, but at least I know the question.

... I'll be impressed


Impressing you is not among my concerns.

.... if you can correctly state the boundary conditions for vortex
shedding.


Are you talking about a starting vortex, a tip vortex, or trailing edge
turbulence?


Good lord.

Cheers

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

DSK wrote:

JAXAshby wrote:

dougies, the capsize ratio is widely discredited as a predictor of
anything but
being the capsize ratio.


"Discredited"? By whom? Please explain... as of the fall of 2003, there
were a number of offshore races around here that required a certain CSR
for certain classes.


Really? Such as?

Cheers

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

"Discredited"? By whom? Please explain... as of the fall of 2003,
there were a number of offshore races around here that required a
certain CSR for certain classes.



MC wrote:
Really? Such as?

The Annapolis-Bermuda race, for one. There are a couple of
point-to-point SAYRA races where the phrase "CSR will be used as an
indicator of acceptability" but I haven't heard of them booting any
applicants. Of course, nobody has entered a J-30 either.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

DSK wrote:

"Discredited"? By whom? Please explain... as of the fall of 2003,
there were a number of offshore races around here that required a
certain CSR for certain classes.



MC wrote:
Really? Such as?


The Annapolis-Bermuda race, for one. There are a couple of
point-to-point SAYRA races where the phrase "CSR will be used as an
indicator of acceptability" but I haven't heard of them booting any
applicants. Of course, nobody has entered a J-30 either.



I was surprised at you assertion so I downloaded a race entry form for
Annapolis-Bermuda but could see the CSR rquirement. Can you find it?
The SAYRA seems to be mostly concerned with inshore dinghy racing.

http://www.sayra-sailing.org/pages/safety.htm

Are you sure about this?


Cheers

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

MC wrote
I was surprised at you assertion so I downloaded a race entry form for
Annapolis-Bermuda but could see the CSR rquirement. Can you find it?

Please post the link for the race entry form.

... The
SAYRA seems to be mostly concerned with inshore dinghy racing.

http://www.sayra-sailing.org/pages/safety.htm

Are you sure about this?

Yep... does posting an irrelevant link prove anything? Why not email Bob
Bowden and ask him? Shucks, ask him if he knows me while you're at it.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

DSK wrote:

MC wrote



... The SAYRA seems to be mostly concerned with inshore dinghy racing.

http://www.sayra-sailing.org/pages/safety.htm

Are you sure about this?


Yep... does posting an irrelevant link prove anything? Why not email Bob
Bowden and ask him? Shucks, ask him if he knows me while you're at it.

Well that's all the info I could find. OK, I'll ask him what's his email
and position in the association?

Cheers

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

MC wrote:
Well that's all the info I could find. OK, I'll ask him what's his email
and position in the association?

His email is at the bottom of the page you posted a link to, his
position was as SAYRA Safety Officer which is why he posted the
article... didn't you read the page?

At any rate, he was Vice Commodore of SAYRA at one point. He may not
remember me but I bet he remembers two of my boats... ask about a purple
Lightning and a Johnson 18.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

cray zee you are, dougies. cray zee.

jesus h. crhist dougies! knock it off! that was the worst bull**** I have
EVER seen you come up with!

Considering that I don't need to "come up with bull****" that wouldn't
be hard.

DSK

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

ask about a purple
Lightning and a Johnson 18.

boy, *those* are boats for which the capsize ratio is IMPORTANT!! in
determining whether they are allowed to race or not.

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. jaxineering
 

"MC" wrote in message
...


DSK wrote:

JAXAshby wrote:


so, making a transom (that doesn't break) 10 times stronger is a
*benefit*?

Sounds like a disadvantage to me. Extra cost, extra weight, slower boat
speed,
all to fix a problem that doesn't exist.


That must explain why there's no such thing as hull speed... structural
strength
can be zero because they never break... that means boats can be
weightless!


Good lord! It's like a discussion with an imbecile.

It was! He was talking to Jax!


Regards


Donal
--

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
bye-bye, idgit.

That is the first time that I have ever seen Jax completely TROUNCED.


Congratulations, Doug!


Regards


Donal
--

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

"MC" wrote in message
...


Good lord.

Very "Bobesque".

Offensive, and yet totally devoid of any real information.




Regards


Donal
--

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
ask about a purple
Lightning and a Johnson 18.

boy, *those* are boats for which the capsize ratio is IMPORTANT!! in
determining whether they are allowed to race or not.

You are so boring that I'm wondering if I should get myself a killfile.



Regards


Donal
--

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. jaxineering
 

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
dougie, engineering genius that youare what with all the reading of
college
physics and engineering textbooks you read, should know that the end of
planks
are under some considerable stress and strain as the hull works in the
seas.

There you have it folks! Jax displays his "genius".

Read his post again, if you don't understand what I mean.



Regards

Donal
--

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

you are on HARD drugs, dude. Talking to dougies about anything technical is
like talking with a mangy cur about international economics.

bye-bye, idgit.

That is the first time that I have ever seen Jax completely TROUNCED.


Congratulations, Doug!


Regards


Donal
--

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

please do. that way we won't have to see your pathetic responses to everything
I post.


ask about a purple
Lightning and a Johnson 18.

boy, *those* are boats for which the capsize ratio is IMPORTANT!! in
determining whether they are allowed to race or not.

You are so boring that I'm wondering if I should get myself a killfile.



Regards


Donal
--

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

Don't do it Donal. Don't. The horror, the horror...

"Donal" wrote in message
...

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
ask about a purple
Lightning and a Johnson 18.

boy, *those* are boats for which the capsize ratio is IMPORTANT!! in
determining whether they are allowed to race or not.

You are so boring that I'm wondering if I should get myself a killfile.



Regards


Donal
--

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

Donal wrote:
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...

bye-bye, idgit.


That is the first time that I have ever seen Jax completely TROUNCED.


Congratulations, Doug!

Jax is "TROUNCED", more often than not.
One must realize, that most of his responses are designed to initiate a
negative response from someone, who has misread or misunderstood all of
the potential answers that could apply.
In this way, he can come back with a response designed to boost his own
ego and belittle the others.
In truth, anyone who has watched this total ass, soon realizes that he
is a totally incompetent, inexperienced amateur, who relies heavily on
"Google" for any answers.

G Nuff said .... don't waste your time with a reply, Jax.

BTW, since your enforced absence and return, I've noticed that on some
rare post your knowledge has improved slightly .... been doing a lot of
"googling" and reading, have we? .... don't answer.....

otn

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

does it help?

"JAXAshby" wrote ...

I like talking with a mangy cur about international economics.

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

what a ****in' idgit you are.

Donal wrote:
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...

bye-bye, idgit.


That is the first time that I have ever seen Jax completely TROUNCED.


Congratulations, Doug!

Jax is "TROUNCED", more often than not.
One must realize, that most of his responses are designed to initiate a
negative response from someone, who has misread or misunderstood all of
the potential answers that could apply.
In this way, he can come back with a response designed to boost his own
ego and belittle the others.
In truth, anyone who has watched this total ass, soon realizes that he
is a totally incompetent, inexperienced amateur, who relies heavily on
"Google" for any answers.

G Nuff said .... don't waste your time with a reply, Jax.

BTW, since your enforced absence and return, I've noticed that on some
rare post your knowledge has improved slightly .... been doing a lot of
"googling" and reading, have we? .... don't answer.....

otn

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

Well, that confirms it. Jax is trounced again!

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
what a ****in' idgit you are.

Donal wrote:
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...

bye-bye, idgit.


That is the first time that I have ever seen Jax completely TROUNCED.


Congratulations, Doug!

Jax is "TROUNCED", more often than not.
One must realize, that most of his responses are designed to initiate a
negative response from someone, who has misread or misunderstood all of
the potential answers that could apply.
In this way, he can come back with a response designed to boost his own
ego and belittle the others.
In truth, anyone who has watched this total ass, soon realizes that he
is a totally incompetent, inexperienced amateur, who relies heavily on
"Google" for any answers.

G Nuff said .... don't waste your time with a reply, Jax.

BTW, since your enforced absence and return, I've noticed that on some
rare post your knowledge has improved slightly .... been doing a lot of
"googling" and reading, have we? .... don't answer.....

otn

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

Subject: BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 01/30/2004 19:40 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

what a ****in' idgit you are.

ROFLMAO ....talk about "idgits".... the guy tells you not to waste you time
with an answer and you come up with this, errrrrr, "zinger".
You've always claimed to be an individual with a very high IQ .... this
response is a prime example as to why a high IQ is only an indication of
someone's potential.
In truth, you may have a high IQ, but in reality, your ability to make use of
and/or apply that IQ, ranks you as a "stupid" individual ..... you "TROUNCED"
yourself again....... ROFLMAO

Shen

PS .... EG Don't waste our time answering.



Donal wrote:
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...

bye-bye, idgit.


That is the first time that I have ever seen Jax completely TROUNCED.


Congratulations, Doug!

Jax is "TROUNCED", more often than not.
One must realize, that most of his responses are designed to initiate a
negative response from someone, who has misread or misunderstood all of
the potential answers that could apply.
In this way, he can come back with a response designed to boost his own
ego and belittle the others.
In truth, anyone who has watched this total ass, soon realizes that he
is a totally incompetent, inexperienced amateur, who relies heavily on
"Google" for any answers.

G Nuff said .... don't waste your time with a reply, Jax.

BTW, since your enforced absence and return, I've noticed that on some
rare post your knowledge has improved slightly .... been doing a lot of
"googling" and reading, have we? .... don't answer.....

otn

BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
 

yuk

Subject: BOAT SHOW REPORT.. MC & capsize screen
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 01/30/2004 19:40 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

what a ****in' idgit you are.

ROFLMAO ....talk about "idgits".... the guy tells you not to waste you time
with an answer and you come up with this, errrrrr, "zinger".
You've always claimed to be an individual with a very high IQ .... this
response is a prime example as to why a high IQ is only an indication of
someone's potential.
In truth, you may have a high IQ, but in reality, your ability to make use of
and/or apply that IQ, ranks you as a "stupid" individual ..... you
"TROUNCED"
yourself again....... ROFLMAO

Shen

PS .... EG Don't waste our time answering.



Donal wrote:
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...

bye-bye, idgit.


That is the first time that I have ever seen Jax completely TROUNCED.


Congratulations, Doug!

Jax is "TROUNCED", more often than not.
One must realize, that most of his responses are designed to initiate a
negative response from someone, who has misread or misunderstood all of
the potential answers that could apply.
In this way, he can come back with a response designed to boost his own
ego and belittle the others.
In truth, anyone who has watched this total ass, soon realizes that he
is a totally incompetent, inexperienced amateur, who relies heavily on
"Google" for any answers.

G Nuff said .... don't waste your time with a reply, Jax.

BTW, since your enforced absence and return, I've noticed that on some
rare post your knowledge has improved slightly .... been doing a lot of
"googling" and reading, have we? .... don't answer.....

otn