"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"Donal" wrote in message
...
Are you claiming that you can maintain a proper lookout with radar
alone?


Thats what I'm claiming Donal. I would not suggest it running a
strange river for the first time, but if you have navigated the same
area many times and you know it like the back of your hand then you
can safely run it with a quality fine tuned radar.

Emmmm... Aren't we discussing the Coll Regs? The International Rules for
the avoidance of Collisions??

I don't see how "familiarity" with a particular stretch of water can help
you avoid a collision.



So where in the Colregs does it say you can't run on radar alone? Of course,
one should always have a visual (and sound) watch, but that is moot if there is
effectively zero visibility. And yet many vessels maintain their normal
schedule in thick fog.

Or are you claiming that local knowledge is not an advantage in the fog? Such
knowledge would certainly help one to keep the boat on a proper course, in its
proper place in a channel.

The problem is that small boats without radar, that are not good reflectors,
will be invisible. They have no business being out in fog.


--
-jeff
"Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information" ColRegs,
Rule 7(c)

Jeff Morris wrote:

The problem is that small boats without radar, that are not good reflectors,
will be invisible. They have no business being out in fog.

The operator of that small boat without radar may be foolish or even
foolhardy, or not, but the fact is that boat and operator have as much
"business" being there as you or the QE2.

The problem is with those who think that some another vessel has no
business being there and act as if it is not their responsibility to
take into account the possibility of meeting such a vessel in dense fog.

Rick

"Rick" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Jeff Morris wrote:

The problem is that small boats without radar, that are not good reflectors,
will be invisible. They have no business being out in fog.

The operator of that small boat without radar may be foolish or even
foolhardy, or not, but the fact is that boat and operator have as much
"business" being there as you or the QE2.

The problem is with those who think that some another vessel has no
business being there and act as if it is not their responsibility to
take into account the possibility of meeting such a vessel in dense fog.

So you claim that a plastic kayak with stealth coating, no radar or reflector,
has every right to travel in shipping channels in pea soup fog? That sounds
like stupidity to me. Or are you simply claiming that everyone has a right to
commit suicide?

Jeff Morris wrote:

So you claim that a plastic kayak with stealth coating, no radar or reflector,
has every right to travel in shipping channels in pea soup fog? That sounds
like stupidity to me. Or are you simply claiming that everyone has a right to
commit suicide?

Regardless of what you think about the mental capacity of the operator,
that kayak has every right to be there. It might sound like stupidity
but stupidity is legal. If you run down the kayak you will be held at
least partially responsible for the collision. Like it or not.

Be careful when you start asking for pecking order rights to use the
waterways. You might end up further down the list than you would prefer.

Rick

"Rick" wrote in message
link.net...
Jeff Morris wrote:

So you claim that a plastic kayak with stealth coating, no radar or
reflector,
has every right to travel in shipping channels in pea soup fog? That sounds
like stupidity to me. Or are you simply claiming that everyone has a right
to
commit suicide?

Regardless of what you think about the mental capacity of the operator,
that kayak has every right to be there.

I'm not so sure of that. Rule 19 is pretty clear that any movement may be
inappropriate, and vessels have been held completely at fault for leaving the
dock without radar.

It might sound like stupidity
but stupidity is legal. If you run down the kayak you will be held at
least partially responsible for the collision. Like it or not.


If the kayak crosses paths with a tanker in the fog, I doubt the tanker would be
assigned any fault.

Be careful when you start asking for pecking order rights to use the
waterways. You might end up further down the list than you would prefer.

I haven't asked for any rights. There are no rights in the ColRegs, only
responsibilities. And the kayak isn't in any pecking order. And the pecking
order doesn't apply in the fog. The pecking order only applies "when in
sight" - if a vessel choses to be invisible, it doesn't have "pecking order
rights."

Jeff Morris wrote:

I'm not so sure of that. Rule 19 is pretty clear that any movement may be
inappropriate, and vessels have been held completely at fault for leaving the
dock without radar.

Well, I am not going to get into a Nilesque ****ing match over how many
angels can dance on a copy of the COLREGS but if you run over the
kayaker, chances are extemely high you will not be a happy boater.

The kayaker was using all his resources. Were you? Why didn't you have a
lookout on the bow? Why were you going so fast? Only a half knot?, well,
since you didn't have time to turn you were going too fast then weren't
you? You will hear that at the hearing and the lawsuits later. So would
that tanker captain if he or she ran over a kayaker in those conditions.

Rick

"Rick" wrote in message
hlink.net...

Well, I am not going to get into a Nilesque ****ing match over how many
angels can dance on a copy of the COLREGS but if you run over the
kayaker, chances are extemely high you will not be a happy boater.

Yes, and if the family of a fool that runs across a highway at night in black
clothes has a good lawyer, I'd be an unhappy driver, also. That doesn't change
who's right.



The kayaker was using all his resources. Were you? Why didn't you have a
lookout on the bow? Why were you going so fast? Only a half knot?, well,
since you didn't have time to turn you were going too fast then weren't
you? You will hear that at the hearing and the lawsuits later. So would
that tanker captain if he or she ran over a kayaker in those conditions.


So, are you claiming that because a kayak could be found anywhere, its illegal
for any vessel to ever proceed in the fog? Are you saying the kayak has the
right to cross in front of a tanker? You're trying to apply a relative standard
in an absolute way.

And remember, I'm no trying to defend the sportfisherman doing 40 knots in the
fog; I'm just saying there are places the kayak doesn't belong. You're claiming
the kayak has the right to go anywhere and do anything he pleases. "Using all
his resources" is not an excuse for not using his brain.

-jeff

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...

"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"Donal" wrote in message
...
Are you claiming that you can maintain a proper lookout with radar
alone?


Thats what I'm claiming Donal. I would not suggest it running a
strange river for the first time, but if you have navigated the same
area many times and you know it like the back of your hand then you
can safely run it with a quality fine tuned radar.

Emmmm... Aren't we discussing the Coll Regs? The International Rules
for
the avoidance of Collisions??

I don't see how "familiarity" with a particular stretch of water can
help
you avoid a collision.



So where in the Colregs does it say you can't run on radar alone? Of
course,
one should always have a visual (and sound) watch, but that is moot if
there is
effectively zero visibility. And yet many vessels maintain their normal
schedule in thick fog.

Or are you claiming that local knowledge is not an advantage in the fog?
Such
knowledge would certainly help one to keep the boat on a proper course, in
its
proper place in a channel.

No! I'm claiming that "local knowledge" does not mean that you may travel
at anything more than a safe speed!

25 kts in thick fog is NOT safe, if there is even the slightest possiblity
of an encounter with another craft.



The problem is that small boats without radar, that are not good
reflectors,
will be invisible. They have no business being out in fog.

Wow! I'm almost speechless (but not completely)!

Jeff, I would like to ask if the Coll Regs place any duty on a boat to be a
good reflector?

Do the Coll Regs place any duty on a vessel to keep a look out for other
vessels?




"Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information"
ColRegs,
Rule 7(c)


I think that is what I was saying!!




Regards


Donal
--

"Donal" wrote in message
...
So where in the Colregs does it say you can't run on radar alone? Of
course,
one should always have a visual (and sound) watch, but that is moot if
there is
effectively zero visibility. And yet many vessels maintain their normal
schedule in thick fog.

Or are you claiming that local knowledge is not an advantage in the fog?
Such
knowledge would certainly help one to keep the boat on a proper course, in
its
proper place in a channel.

No! I'm claiming that "local knowledge" does not mean that you may travel
at anything more than a safe speed!

25 kts in thick fog is NOT safe, if there is even the slightest possiblity
of an encounter with another craft.

I'll admit that 25 knots does seem excessive in a lot of situations, and its
rather unlikely that I would be going over 7 or 8 knots in thick fog (and even
that would often be considered excessive). But there are no fixed rules for
this. I'm sure the Bar Harbor Fast Cat Ferry doesn't slow much in the fog, and
there is a chance some idiot is crossing the Bay of Fundy in his sea kayak.

There's always "the slightest chance," someone could be rowing across the
Atlantic. Should all traffic stop because of a slight possibility?





The problem is that small boats without radar, that are not good
reflectors,
will be invisible. They have no business being out in fog.

Wow! I'm almost speechless (but not completely)!

Jeff, I would like to ask if the Coll Regs place any duty on a boat to be a
good reflector?

Absolutely. Positively. Meditate on Rule 2 for a while. Every seaman would
agree its folly to cross a shipping lane in the fog in a stealth kayak.



Do the Coll Regs place any duty on a vessel to keep a look out for other
vessels?


Of course. How does a vessel without radar do this in the fog?




"Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information"
ColRegs,
Rule 7(c)


I think that is what I was saying!!


No. You're ignoring reality. You're claiming that all large vessels should
never proceed in the fog, because there's a chance of running over an invisible
kayak in the middle of the ocean. You're taking a situation with a huge amount
of gray area and trying to make it black and white; that's not the way the world
works.

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...

"Donal" wrote in message
...
So where in the Colregs does it say you can't run on radar alone? Of
course,
one should always have a visual (and sound) watch, but that is moot if

25 kts in thick fog is NOT safe, if there is even the slightest
possiblity
of an encounter with another craft.

I'll admit that 25 knots does seem excessive in a lot of situations, and
its
rather unlikely that I would be going over 7 or 8 knots in thick fog (and
even
that would often be considered excessive). But there are no fixed rules
for
this.

What do you mean by "no fixed rules"??

AFAIK, there are very strict rules that govern the behaviour of vessels in
fog.

Are you suggesting that big ships are exempt from the Coll Regs?


I'm sure the Bar Harbor Fast Cat Ferry doesn't slow much in the fog,

My copy of the Coll Regs does not mention the "Bar Harbour Fast Cat Ferry".
I was under the impression that the Coll Regs were more authoritive than
your local ferry's skipper.




and
there is a chance some idiot is crossing the Bay of Fundy in his sea
kayak.


I don't believe that "idiocy" is an issue when trying to determine "stand
on" status. Am I wrong?



There's always "the slightest chance," someone could be rowing across the
Atlantic. Should all traffic stop because of a slight possibility?

Read the Coll Regs. I believe that the issue is covered.

A row boat has the same right as an oil tanker to use the Atlantic. The
Coll Regs were designed to make it safe for both of them.









The problem is that small boats without radar, that are not good
reflectors,
will be invisible. They have no business being out in fog.

Wow! I'm almost speechless (but not completely)!

Jeff, I would like to ask if the Coll Regs place any duty on a boat to
be a
good reflector?

Absolutely. Positively. Meditate on Rule 2 for a while. Every seaman
would
agree its folly to cross a shipping lane in the fog in a stealth kayak.


Where can you buy one of these "stealth kayaks"?

Are you so far out on this limb that you are having to use the concept of
fictional craft to back up your position?

I haven't bothered to look at Rule 2, .... because your position seems
ludicrous. I have read the Coll Regs in the past, and I believe that each
vessel has a duty to keep an adequate lookout.


You seem to be suggesting that vessels have an obligation to be seen!!!






Do the Coll Regs place any duty on a vessel to keep a look out for
other
vessels?


Of course. How does a vessel without radar do this in the fog?

By travelling slowly ... and keeping a lookout. If the fog is very thick,
then the vessel travels *very* slowly.







"Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information"
ColRegs,
Rule 7(c)


I think that is what I was saying!!


No. You're ignoring reality. You're claiming that all large vessels
should
never proceed in the fog, because there's a chance of running over an
invisible
kayak in the middle of the ocean. You're taking a situation with a huge
amount
of gray area and trying to make it black and white; that's not the way the
world
works.


You raised the issue of "scanty information".

In thick fog, a skipper has scanty information.

The Coll Regs suggest that you should post a lookout, and that you should
slow down to a safe speed in fog.

Why do you have a problem with this?
It's all very simple. DO NOT travel at a speed where poor visibility
means that you cannot take the necessary avoiding action.



Regards


Donal
--