On the ocean. In the bay, shipping traffic, tankers
and the like do have stand on status and must be given
ground. I've seen a freighter change course to avoid
a sailboat on the ocean... we were the sailboat, but
we were getting ready to head up and avoid her. They
must have had the rare lookout. :-)

"Shen44" wrote in message
...
Subject: Ferry Speeds
From: "Jonathan Ganz"
Date: 11/19/2003 17:17 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In the SF bay, ferries do not have any restriction on manueverability,
except near their landings. They are required to get out of our way
in the middle of the bay, and we regularly enforce the rules, which
they know quite well and always follow. Of course, we don't
deliberately put ourselves in their path, but neither do we shy
away from sailing where we want to sail because a ferry might
be going in that direction.

BG This applies to ship traffic also ..... but, ...... EG

Shen

Subject: Ferry Speeds
From: "Simple Simon"


Here is Rule 2 verbatim:

Rule 2
Responsibility
(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master,
or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect
to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be
required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the
special circumstances of the case.

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to
all dangers of navigation and collision and to any
special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved,
which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to
avoid immediate danger.

I've read it dozens of times and have yet to see occur the word,
"common sense".

S.Simon


Thank you, simpleton, you've once again proved my point ...... your basic
intelligence level is too low to grasp even the most simple of concepts.

I realize that the words "common sense" are not in rule 2, but I also know that
the rule is called the "rule of good seamanship" and "general prudential" rule.
Now, I know that this concept is above your intelligence level of reasoning,
but, good seamanship is all about using common sense ..... rule 2, is all about
common sense ..... anyone with a basic low intelligence level, can easily
understand, that even though Rule 2 never mentions common sense, it is one of
the prime considerations being discussed.
Sheesh, what a phony wannabe troll.

Shen

ubject: Ferry Speeds
From: "Simple Simon"
Date: 11/19/2003 18:06 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

It's not my fault if the authorities are slow to
process the renewal. My license remains valid
until revoked. When the license renewal is processed
and returned to me the date of issue of the new license
will be the date of expiration of the old one. This
means My license never expired and I can legally
operate under the old one with while the paper
work is being processed.

S.Simon

Wrong again simpleton. The expiration date on your license, is the last day you
could use it.
The years grace period, only gives you time to renew, without having to retake
the license exam.
If you are using the license and it has expired, I would not hesitate to turn
you in for operating without one ... EG though I cannot for the life of me
think of what you might be doing, that would require one.

Shen

Subject: Ferry Speeds
From: "Jonathan Ganz"

On the ocean. In the bay, shipping traffic, tankers
and the like do have stand on status and must be given
ground.

Not really. They do have the right to expect you not to impede their passage,
but they are not necessarily "stand on", although because they are expecting
you not to impede their passage, they will appear to act that way.

I've seen a freighter change course to avoid
a sailboat on the ocean... we were the sailboat, but
we were getting ready to head up and avoid her. They
must have had the rare lookout. :-)

Generally, the last one to see a target, among the "bridge team", is the
lookout .... took awhile to understand the why of this.
At sea, never expect a ship to maneuver for you (right or wrong).
Two main reasons:
1. In any kind of seaway, you may not be seen (right or wrong)
2. Experience has taught many that if there is a good deal of small boat
traffic around, the best bet is to claim "rule of GT" and maintain course and
speed. You might **** one or two off, but you'll generally get through without
confusing/ upsetting the many (right or wrong) If it's a single boat and they
see it, you'll frequently see them maneuver, but generally at the last moment,
because, again, experience has shown where small boats are concerned, expect
the unexpected. (Hey! Let's take a close look at the big ship!!). (right or
wrong).

Shen

"Shen44" wrote in message
...
Subject: Ferry Speeds
From: "Jonathan Ganz"

On the ocean. In the bay, shipping traffic, tankers
and the like do have stand on status and must be given
ground.

Not really. They do have the right to expect you not to impede their
passage,
but they are not necessarily "stand on", although because they are
expecting
you not to impede their passage, they will appear to act that way.

Not according to every single person I've ever heard speak on
the subject, including several Coasties. The tankers have stand on
status. They will not and cannot stop or maneuver much in the bay.
I don't know about expecting or not, but the CG says they have
status.


I've seen a freighter change course to avoid
a sailboat on the ocean... we were the sailboat, but
we were getting ready to head up and avoid her. They
must have had the rare lookout. :-)

Generally, the last one to see a target, among the "bridge team", is the
lookout .... took awhile to understand the why of this.
At sea, never expect a ship to maneuver for you (right or wrong).
Two main reasons:
1. In any kind of seaway, you may not be seen (right or wrong)
2. Experience has taught many that if there is a good deal of small boat
traffic around, the best bet is to claim "rule of GT" and maintain course
and
speed. You might **** one or two off, but you'll generally get through
without
confusing/ upsetting the many (right or wrong) If it's a single boat and
they
see it, you'll frequently see them maneuver, but generally at the last
moment,
because, again, experience has shown where small boats are concerned,
expect
the unexpected. (Hey! Let's take a close look at the big ship!!). (right
or
wrong).

Well, we try to get the hell out of Dodge if we have any indication
a freighter is headed our way... in the bay or out. :-)

Shen

Subject: Ferry Speeds
From: "Jonathan Ganz"
Date: 11/20/2003 09:36 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"Shen44" wrote in message
...
Subject: Ferry Speeds
From: "Jonathan Ganz"


Not according to every single person I've ever heard speak on
the subject, including several Coasties. The tankers have stand on
status. They will not and cannot stop or maneuver much in the bay.
I don't know about expecting or not, but the CG says they have
status.

You tweaked a memory. In SF Bay, there's at least one area which is an RNA and
small boats aren't allowed (around Pinole Shoal) and there may be others, but
generally, I believe you'll find that everyone's working under the "shall not
impede" rule. (I'd love to see some case history on this).
We are talking a legal point here that has room for confusion regarding "stand
on" status ..... it's a part of the "Shall Not Impede" rule that many have
never liked.
I would like to say, you're correct, because the ship shall not be impeded, he
has stand on status, but G that status is not absolute.

Shen

Hmmm... interesting point... I'm wondering when would be
a situation when that status isn't absolute... in the bay that is?

"Shen44" wrote in message
...
You tweaked a memory. In SF Bay, there's at least one area which is an RNA
and
small boats aren't allowed (around Pinole Shoal) and there may be others,
but
generally, I believe you'll find that everyone's working under the "shall
not
impede" rule. (I'd love to see some case history on this).
We are talking a legal point here that has room for confusion regarding
"stand
on" status ..... it's a part of the "Shall Not Impede" rule that many have
never liked.
I would like to say, you're correct, because the ship shall not be
impeded, he
has stand on status, but G that status is not absolute.

Shen

Well, (almost) no status is absolute because in (almost) any real life situation there are
complexities not explicitly mentioned in the rules. For example, there is no explicit
mention of three vessel situations in the rules.

However, the phrase "shall not impede" is a bit more vague than most of the ColRegs. Most
casual commentators, writing simplified rules for novices, will say that "shall not
impede" means the same as "keep out of the way off" that implies give-way status.
However, this is not the intent of the wording. "Shall not impede the safe passage" means
that a vessel which might ordinarily have stand-on status, must leave the other vessel a
reasonable amount of room to pass. The stand-on/give-way relationship still holds, but
now the stand-on vessel may be required to alter course to accommodate the other vessel.

The meaning of this, in practice, depends a lot on the actual situation. For instance,
Rule 9(b) says that a vessel under 20 meters or a sailboat shall not impede a vessel that
can only navigate within a channel - but it doesn't say anything about this vessel - it
may be smaller and less restricted than the sailboat. If the vessel is actually more
maneuverable than the sailboat, it does not need a "protection" from 9(b). However, if
the give-way vessel is an oil tanker, it may be on the only reasonable course, and any
alteration would be impeding its safe passage. Thus, the master of the sailboat has to
appreciate the handling characteristics of the other vessel.

Since its rather unlikely that the novice small boat operator will understand the needs of
the large ship, for these boats, interpreting "shall not impede" as meaning "give-way" is
appropriate. However, it doesn't mean that a smaller power vessel becomes stand-on WRT a
sailboat because its in a fairway. Thus, the status of vessels implied by the various
terms of Rules 9 and 10 are not as absolute as the "stand-on/give-way" status of Rule 18.

There has been much confusion over the use of "impede;" the IMO tried to clarify this in
Rule 8 with some added clauses - their comments on this make it clear that "shall not
impede" is not as binding as "shall stay out of the way of," but the words of Rule 8 often
sound like gibberish. Fortunately, professional mariners seems to understand it.






"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Hmmm... interesting point... I'm wondering when would be
a situation when that status isn't absolute... in the bay that is?

"Shen44" wrote in message
...
You tweaked a memory. In SF Bay, there's at least one area which is an RNA
and
small boats aren't allowed (around Pinole Shoal) and there may be others,
but
generally, I believe you'll find that everyone's working under the "shall
not
impede" rule. (I'd love to see some case history on this).
We are talking a legal point here that has room for confusion regarding
"stand
on" status ..... it's a part of the "Shall Not Impede" rule that many have
never liked.
I would like to say, you're correct, because the ship shall not be
impeded, he
has stand on status, but G that status is not absolute.

Shen

Very good dissertation. I'm glad you gave a good
explanation of shall not impede. One thing you did
not mention, however, is shall not impede applies
in all conditions of visibility. This means there
is give-way/stand-on vessel status in restricted
visibility.

S.Simon


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message ...
Well, (almost) no status is absolute because in (almost) any real life situation there are
complexities not explicitly mentioned in the rules. For example, there is no explicit
mention of three vessel situations in the rules.

However, the phrase "shall not impede" is a bit more vague than most of the ColRegs. Most
casual commentators, writing simplified rules for novices, will say that "shall not
impede" means the same as "keep out of the way off" that implies give-way status.
However, this is not the intent of the wording. "Shall not impede the safe passage" means
that a vessel which might ordinarily have stand-on status, must leave the other vessel a
reasonable amount of room to pass. The stand-on/give-way relationship still holds, but
now the stand-on vessel may be required to alter course to accommodate the other vessel.

The meaning of this, in practice, depends a lot on the actual situation. For instance,
Rule 9(b) says that a vessel under 20 meters or a sailboat shall not impede a vessel that
can only navigate within a channel - but it doesn't say anything about this vessel - it
may be smaller and less restricted than the sailboat. If the vessel is actually more
maneuverable than the sailboat, it does not need a "protection" from 9(b). However, if
the give-way vessel is an oil tanker, it may be on the only reasonable course, and any
alteration would be impeding its safe passage. Thus, the master of the sailboat has to
appreciate the handling characteristics of the other vessel.

Since its rather unlikely that the novice small boat operator will understand the needs of
the large ship, for these boats, interpreting "shall not impede" as meaning "give-way" is
appropriate. However, it doesn't mean that a smaller power vessel becomes stand-on WRT a
sailboat because its in a fairway. Thus, the status of vessels implied by the various
terms of Rules 9 and 10 are not as absolute as the "stand-on/give-way" status of Rule 18.

There has been much confusion over the use of "impede;" the IMO tried to clarify this in
Rule 8 with some added clauses - their comments on this make it clear that "shall not
impede" is not as binding as "shall stay out of the way of," but the words of Rule 8 often
sound like gibberish. Fortunately, professional mariners seems to understand it.






"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Hmmm... interesting point... I'm wondering when would be
a situation when that status isn't absolute... in the bay that is?

"Shen44" wrote in message
...
You tweaked a memory. In SF Bay, there's at least one area which is an RNA
and
small boats aren't allowed (around Pinole Shoal) and there may be others,
but
generally, I believe you'll find that everyone's working under the "shall
not
impede" rule. (I'd love to see some case history on this).
We are talking a legal point here that has room for confusion regarding
"stand
on" status ..... it's a part of the "Shall Not Impede" rule that many have
never liked.
I would like to say, you're correct, because the ship shall not be
impeded, he
has stand on status, but G that status is not absolute.

Shen

Negative, former master.

It is true that the "shall not impede" rules are in affect in all conditions of
visibility, but as always, you've missed the important point. "Shall no impede" is NOT
the same as "give-way." There are similarities, to be sure, and in the extreme case they
are effectively the same. But the governing rules use very different language and mean
different things. In fact, Rule 8(f)iii stresses that the stand-on/give-way relationship
has not been altered - a "not to be impeded" vessel may still be the give-way vessel.

Further, its important to note that the "vessel not to be impeded" is not "stand-on" -
that is, it is not required to hold course and speed. In fact, it may well be required to
alter course. All that "shall not impede" requires is that the vessel is given sufficient
room for safe passage. The stand-on/give-way relationship implies that the stand-on
vessel should not have to alter course at all.

You have raised an interesting issue that the Narrow Channel and TSS Rules are in affect
in all conditions of visibility. It means that in heavy fog a sailboat should not cross a
channel if it is not able to determine if it is clear. This should be easy in a lightly
used channel, where you might only hear one fog signal, but would be impossible in a busy
channel without radar.


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Very good dissertation. I'm glad you gave a good
explanation of shall not impede. One thing you did
not mention, however, is shall not impede applies
in all conditions of visibility. This means there
is give-way/stand-on vessel status in restricted
visibility.

S.Simon


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
Well, (almost) no status is absolute because in (almost) any real life situation there
are
complexities not explicitly mentioned in the rules. For example, there is no explicit
mention of three vessel situations in the rules.

However, the phrase "shall not impede" is a bit more vague than most of the ColRegs.
Most
casual commentators, writing simplified rules for novices, will say that "shall not
impede" means the same as "keep out of the way off" that implies give-way status.
However, this is not the intent of the wording. "Shall not impede the safe passage"
means
that a vessel which might ordinarily have stand-on status, must leave the other vessel
a
reasonable amount of room to pass. The stand-on/give-way relationship still holds,
but
now the stand-on vessel may be required to alter course to accommodate the other
vessel.

The meaning of this, in practice, depends a lot on the actual situation. For
instance,
Rule 9(b) says that a vessel under 20 meters or a sailboat shall not impede a vessel
that
can only navigate within a channel - but it doesn't say anything about this vessel -
it
may be smaller and less restricted than the sailboat. If the vessel is actually more
maneuverable than the sailboat, it does not need a "protection" from 9(b). However,
if
the give-way vessel is an oil tanker, it may be on the only reasonable course, and any
alteration would be impeding its safe passage. Thus, the master of the sailboat has
to
appreciate the handling characteristics of the other vessel.

Since its rather unlikely that the novice small boat operator will understand the
needs of
the large ship, for these boats, interpreting "shall not impede" as meaning "give-way"
is
appropriate. However, it doesn't mean that a smaller power vessel becomes stand-on
WRT a
sailboat because its in a fairway. Thus, the status of vessels implied by the various
terms of Rules 9 and 10 are not as absolute as the "stand-on/give-way" status of Rule
18.

There has been much confusion over the use of "impede;" the IMO tried to clarify this
in
Rule 8 with some added clauses - their comments on this make it clear that "shall not
impede" is not as binding as "shall stay out of the way of," but the words of Rule 8
often
sound like gibberish. Fortunately, professional mariners seems to understand it.






"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Hmmm... interesting point... I'm wondering when would be
a situation when that status isn't absolute... in the bay that is?

"Shen44" wrote in message
...
You tweaked a memory. In SF Bay, there's at least one area which is an RNA
and
small boats aren't allowed (around Pinole Shoal) and there may be others,
but
generally, I believe you'll find that everyone's working under the "shall
not
impede" rule. (I'd love to see some case history on this).
We are talking a legal point here that has room for confusion regarding
"stand
on" status ..... it's a part of the "Shall Not Impede" rule that many have
never liked.
I would like to say, you're correct, because the ship shall not be
impeded, he
has stand on status, but G that status is not absolute.

Shen