Shen44 wrote:

..... how's that renewal coming?

This is one of those times I really wish there was an essay requirement
for renewals.

Picture the Coasties at the REC huddled around Nil's paper, trying to
contain their laughter and glancing back over their shoulders to see
what kind of applicants make it into the office these days.

If any of them took Nil seriously - they - would have the blood pressure
problems! As it is I suppose they could use a little comic relief and
you have to admit, Nil's interpretations of the regs provides a good
dose of that.

Rick

What makes you think the ColRegs have anything with the licensing regulations? This makes as much
sense as using Webster's as the reference for nautical terminology (some you do frequently).

There is no reference to licensing in the ColRegs, not is there any mention of the ColRegs in the
licensing regs, other than comments that one will be tested on their knowledge of the ColRegs. The
Inland version of the ColRegs, and other associated regulations are in 33CFR, while the licensing
regs are all in 46CFR.

A quick scan of 46CFR10 (The Code of Federal Regulations, Title 46 [Shipping] Part 10 [Licensing or
Maritime Personnel]) reveals that the phase "sail, or sail auxiliary" is used many times.

Here's an example, perhaps the one that would apply to Neal:

Sec. 10.454 Service requirements for mate of Great Lakes and inland
steam or motor vessels of not more than 200 gross tons.

(a) The minimum service required to qualify an applicant for a
license as mate of Great Lakes and inland steam or motor vessels of not
more than 200 gross tons is six months of service in the deck department
of steam or motor, sail, or auxiliary sail vessels. To obtain authority
to serve on the Great Lakes, three months of the required service must
have been on Great Lakes waters, otherwise the license will be limited
to the inland waters of the United States (excluding the Great Lakes).
(b) In order to obtain an endorsement on this license for sail or
auxiliary sail vessels, the applicant must submit evidence of three months of service
on sail or auxiliary sail vessels.

Its pretty clear that the "auxiliary sail" endorsement is what would apply to most of our vessels.
Unfortunately, the CFR never formally defines "auxiliary sail," but the do "include by reference"
the ABYC definitions, which I believe are quite clear.

So, Neal, you may be able to claim that if you never raise the sail, you are a powerboat. But with
the sail up you are either a sail, or auxiliary sail, neither of which are you licensed for.

--
-jeff


"Simple Simon" wrote in message ...
Read the Colregs, Trash! Any time machinery is in use a sailboat
becomes a motorboat no matter how much drive is being provided
by sails. This is not so hard to understand. I have to laugh to
think so many small minds fail to comprehend it. What do you
think is the purpose of displaying the upside-down cone when
the sails are up and the motor is on? It means you are a motor
boat by the Rules. I can deliver any and all aux/sailboats
legally. The only vessel I cannot deliver legally or charter
legally is a pure sailboat (no machinery for propulsion).

S.Simon


"Schoonertrash" wrote in message ...
Huh? Sounds a bit like using the "I was listening to Limbaugh" excuse
when stopped for speeding. Good story til you try to use it for real. Yes,
you will get away with it. Until you get stopped. The mere act of having
sails raised is prima facie evidence that the vessel was sailing. Plenty of
probable cause to open an investigation.First thing that will happen is the
USCG OIC will ask you for your license. Then they keep it pending outcome
of their investigation. You won't need it anymore. They have no sense of
humour with smartasses and sea lawyer wannabes that think they are stupid.

In the area of not making a living with a sixpack license. For sure if you
are limited to no endorsements and near coastal and think you will rely on
the sailing trade. 100 ton licenses are practical WITH a towing
endorsement, with a radar endorsement and with any other endorsement you can
tag on. and only on powered commercial vessels. Beyond that it takes
STCW-95 qualifications for anything in excess of 150 miles offshore.

What it is good for is measuring some ability (book learning not practical)
and indicates you MAY be able to actually perform. But unlike a British
license it doesn't mean you have any practical ability beyond taking written
tests. Combine it with an AB Card and a test of practical ability is
included. Yes, AB's take the exact same ColRegs test as so the 100
tonners. On our bridge team last trip we had seven AB's including the
Bo's'n. One 1600 ton Captain/unlimited tonnage Mate license, One 500 ton
license, Four 100 ton licenses and one guy who just made AB. Three were
heading to 3rd Mate Unlimited Tonnage school, One was waiting for an opening
for a 3rd Mate job and now has it.

Without the sail endorsement you are not allowed to operate with paying
passengers or charge to deliver a sailing vessel. Besides you don't need a
license to take people out for a sail. Without the towing endorsement you
are not allowed to accept payment for towing but you can still tow. However
if you are doing either one for free or fun AND have a licenseyou are still
liable and held to a higher standard as if you were getting paid. It's a
two edged sword.

But then when the only reason to have one is a wall decoration does it
matter?

Cheers and fair winds

MST

"Schoonertrash" wrote in message ...
Huh? Sounds a bit like using the "I was listening to Limbaugh" excuse
when stopped for speeding. Good story til you try to use it for real. Yes,
you will get away with it. Until you get stopped. The mere act of having
sails raised is prima facie evidence that the vessel was sailing.

What about my Motor Sailing vessel? What if the sail are not pushing?




Plenty of
probable cause to open an investigation.First thing that will happen is the
USCG OIC will ask you for your license. Then they keep it pending outcome
of their investigation.

SOP

You won't need it anymore. They have no sense of
humour with smartasses and sea lawyer wannabes that think they are stupid.


True



In the area of not making a living with a sixpack license. For sure if you
are limited to no endorsements and near coastal and think you will rely on
the sailing trade.




100 ton licenses are practical WITH a towing
endorsement,

100 tons are pratical without any endorsements. I ran a many 100 ton
crew boats without any other endorsements. And I knew many many others
doing the same. We all knew how to run on pure radar at high speeds
yet felt no desire or need to get a radar endorsement. Compaines did
not pay you any more for endorsements unless you where delivering
vessels via deep water routes.




with a radar endorsement and with any other endorsement you can
tag on. and only on powered commercial vessels. Beyond that it takes
STCW-95 qualifications for anything in excess of 150 miles offshore.

We call it a any oceans endorsement



What it is good for is measuring some ability (book learning not practical)
and indicates you MAY be able to actually perform. But unlike a British
license it doesn't mean you have any practical ability beyond taking written
tests.

Yes that is so true! It's a licence to learn.




Combine it with an AB Card and a test of practical ability is
included. Yes, AB's take the exact same ColRegs test as so the 100
tonners.

Big deal, question in the CFR is mostly open book.




On our bridge team last trip we had seven AB's including the
Bo's'n. One 1600 ton Captain/unlimited tonnage Mate license, One 500 ton
license, Four 100 ton licenses and one guy who just made AB. Three were
heading to 3rd Mate Unlimited Tonnage school, One was waiting for an opening
for a 3rd Mate job and now has it.


Sounds like the offshore industry is booming again, make hay while the
sun shines!


Without the sail endorsement you are not allowed to operate with paying
passengers or charge to deliver a sailing vessel. Besides you don't need a
license to take people out for a sail. Without the towing endorsement you
are not allowed to accept payment for towing but you can still tow. However
if you are doing either one for free or fun AND have a licenseyou are still
liable and held to a higher standard as if you were getting paid. It's a
two edged sword.

But then when the only reason to have one is a wall decoration does it
matter?


Dumb question coming from someone that is making a living at sea. You
should value and show respect for knowledge.

Most do not have a clue, and could care less.




Cheers and fair winds

Same to you Mike. Sounds like your getting some serious deep water
time, aint nothing like it is there?

Joe
MSV RedCloud


MST

Jeff Morris questioned Nil:

What makes you think the ColRegs have anything with the licensing regulations?

Because Nil thinks differently. Nil doesn't need no stinkin' regulations
cause he is a captain on the internet.

Nil doesn't know that a sailboat like his, a trailerboat with an
outboard is a sailboat. It is a sailboat with an auxiliary engine. If he
could afford a real cruising sailboat with an inboard it would be an
auxiliary sailboat, a sailboat no matter what he is doing with it.

Either way he isn't certified to operate either one for hire in any
circumstance, sails up or down, motoring or not. He is not a licensed
sailor! He is not a master of sailing vessels. He is just another
motorboat operator.

Once more Nil has shown us his stuff and it ain't much ....

Bwahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahah Nil, an internet wannabe who now
fantasies that someone might hack into his old beater computer.

It would be an ironic justice for some crook to steal Nil's identity, no
need for further punishment.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


Rick

snip

But then when the only reason to have one is a wall decoration does it
matter?


Dumb question coming from someone that is making a living at sea. You
should value and show respect for knowledge.

G In Neal's case, not really a dumb question.
To the best of our knowledge, he has never legally used the license, which is
one that was designed to get a foot in the door, for someone with minimal
experience.
If you have a license and make no use of it, it is just a piece of wallpaper.
Admittedly, in many cases, just looking at the license will give a good
indication of what type of experience, someone has had, and for that you should
show some respect for time spent, at least.

Shen

The real question on renewal is the minimum days per year of required usage
of the original license. Besides having the owner of the boat (himself)
sign off on a small boat form how's he going to get by that requirement?

I know I have to bust my rear to find boats to go out on every available
opportunity and will still have to do a lot sailing towards the end. For
someone who doesn't go anywhere it must be turri-bull hard! At the present
rate I'm only averaging about 30 days per year. Most of the time I'm out at
sea and can't be on another vessel. Although some of my big ship time does,
I'm told, count here and there. I think the requirement for renewal is 45
days per year or 225 days total out of five years. Not close yet but I'm
almost thinking it would be easier to do the 200 ton upgrade and start the
clock ticking all over again.

Just wondering . . . .

MST

Shen44 wrote:

G In Neal's case, not really a dumb question.

The funny part is that Nil hangs all his claims to fame and status on
being a sailor of sailboats and loudly and continually condemns all
powerboaters as some sort of subspecies.

He has never made any claim of powerboating experience other than
motoring his dinghy ashore from his engine block mooring in some swamp.
That begs the question of how he got his time for the license and why
does he not have a sail/auxiliary sail endorsement?

Nil is being uncharacteristically quiet since he spat out that last
silly post about the COLREGS being relevant to licensing and some other
nonsense about sailboats. Since he is obviously not a master of
sailboats I suppose he is laying low hoping we will all forget.

Maybe someone will loan him a hundred bucks so he can take a sailboat
endorsement course. That will come in handy for him next time the CG
offers him a teaching position ... bwahahahahaahahahahah

Rick

I'm not sure what your license is, but I should think that ALL of your
ship time should count.
To the best of my knowledge, once you have the license, where renewals
are concerned, for ease of renewal you need to show active time at sea
..... this does not necessarily mean time "in grade". The only thing you
need that for is to upgrade to a higher tonnage.
For instance, with my Master license, if I needed to show time, on the
license, I'd be in trouble, as I don't really use that part anymore, I
use the Pilot part.
As always, check with the OMI which holds your paperwork.

Schoonertrash wrote:
The real question on renewal is the minimum days per year of required usage
of the original license. Besides having the owner of the boat (himself)
sign off on a small boat form how's he going to get by that requirement?

I know I have to bust my rear to find boats to go out on every available
opportunity and will still have to do a lot sailing towards the end. For
someone who doesn't go anywhere it must be turri-bull hard! At the present
rate I'm only averaging about 30 days per year. Most of the time I'm out at
sea and can't be on another vessel. Although some of my big ship time does,
I'm told, count here and there. I think the requirement for renewal is 45
days per year or 225 days total out of five years. Not close yet but I'm
almost thinking it would be easier to do the 200 ton upgrade and start the
clock ticking all over again.

Just wondering . . . .

MST

Schoonertrash wrote:

Although some of my big ship time does, I'm told, count here and there.

Check with the REC. I believe you and I use the same one and they
allowed some "observer" time documented on board a boxboat for my 100
ton ticket.

Rick

Simple Simon wrote:

There is a professional mariner here by the name of Rick
who maintains a Master's license is not worthwhile to have
for one who lives aboard and sails an aux/sailboat.

Never said any such thing, Nil. I very specifically stated that *your*
toy license does not cover a sailboat.

It does not matter a whit whether you live on it or even sail it with a
broken boom. You, Nil, are not certified by the USCG as being competent
to carry paying passengers or to operate a sail vessel for hire. You are
NOT a master of sailboats of any sort. You are not a professional sailor.

You ARE an internet wannabe though.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahah

Rick