There is a loser here by the name of Rick who maintains
a Master's license is not worthwhile to have for one
who lives aboard and sails an aux/sailboat. Next thing
he will be attempting to claim a Six- Pak license is no
good for bonefish back country charters. Bwaahahahahah!

I say he's simple-minded and incorrect. Any aux/sailboat
is a motorboat unless the motor (machinery) is not on. The
transmission does not even have to be engaged. The motor
can just be sitting there running at idle charging the batteries,
for example, while the boats goes on her merry way under
sail and she is still classified as a motorboat. This means
having a sailing endorsement is really only legally required
for a pure sailboat (one with no machinery). For example,
I could be sailing along with paying passengers while my
Honda was idling in neutral and there isn't a thing in the
world I was doing illegally with respect to charging
passengers for the sail. Even if I stopped the motor
I could easily start it up again if I saw a law enforcement
vessel and if they boarded I could simply claim the motor
was running all along. This would be even simpler for
an aux/sail boat with an inboard motor as turning the
key to start a motor is even less conspicuous.

So, for all practical purposes any sailor whether he uses
his motor or knot really does not need a sailing endorsement.
The USCG realizes this and that is why they place primary
emphasis on their licenses stating Master of Steam or Motor
Vessels while they toss in a sailing endorsement mostly to
fill a loophole that of pure sailing vessels.

Now, I ask you all, how many pure sailboats have you seen
that are large enough to be for hire with captain are there
that require a sailing endorsement on one's Master of Steam
or Motor Vessels ticket? Also, ask yourself how many Master of
Sailing with motor endorsement licenses are there? The
answer to that is zero, zilch, nada, none! Yet that fool of
a boy Rick lives his life and argues his lame points on the
basis of acting like they predominate. What a misinformed
clown Rick is.

Even otn and Shen44 are smart enough to realize one cannot
make a living with a sailing endorsement. There just aren't
enough jobs of the sort available. Being a Master of Steam
and Motor Vessels is the way the majority of professionals
such as myself make a living - not via sailing endorsements.

So, Rick, please go away with your foolish statements and
goofy arguments because if you keep it up you're gonna need
to join the professional clown actor's guild.

S.Simon

Simple Simon wrote:

Some really weird stuff again. Smacks of his COLREGS fantasies.

Did you read what you wrote, Nil?

What are you calling that trailerboat you can't afford to put in a marina?

Tell us the difference between sail and auxiliary sail.

Take your time, it isn't easy for you, we know. And try to keep your
response less than 200 lines and more than your little "I'm having a
hissy fit" whiny graphic ...

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaahah Nil is getting whacked again.

Rick

You definitely have reading comprehension problems.

If you cannot figure out the differenced between
sail and aux/sail from my post it means you are
just a hopeless case.

S.Simon


"Rick" wrote in message nk.net...
Simple Simon wrote:

Some really weird stuff again. Smacks of his COLREGS fantasies.

Did you read what you wrote, Nil?

What are you calling that trailerboat you can't afford to put in a marina?

Tell us the difference between sail and auxiliary sail.

Take your time, it isn't easy for you, we know. And try to keep your
response less than 200 lines and more than your little "I'm having a
hissy fit" whiny graphic ...

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaahah Nil is getting whacked again.

Rick

Huh? Sounds a bit like using the "I was listening to Limbaugh" excuse
when stopped for speeding. Good story til you try to use it for real. Yes,
you will get away with it. Until you get stopped. The mere act of having
sails raised is prima facie evidence that the vessel was sailing. Plenty of
probable cause to open an investigation.First thing that will happen is the
USCG OIC will ask you for your license. Then they keep it pending outcome
of their investigation. You won't need it anymore. They have no sense of
humour with smartasses and sea lawyer wannabes that think they are stupid.

In the area of not making a living with a sixpack license. For sure if you
are limited to no endorsements and near coastal and think you will rely on
the sailing trade. 100 ton licenses are practical WITH a towing
endorsement, with a radar endorsement and with any other endorsement you can
tag on. and only on powered commercial vessels. Beyond that it takes
STCW-95 qualifications for anything in excess of 150 miles offshore.

What it is good for is measuring some ability (book learning not practical)
and indicates you MAY be able to actually perform. But unlike a British
license it doesn't mean you have any practical ability beyond taking written
tests. Combine it with an AB Card and a test of practical ability is
included. Yes, AB's take the exact same ColRegs test as so the 100
tonners. On our bridge team last trip we had seven AB's including the
Bo's'n. One 1600 ton Captain/unlimited tonnage Mate license, One 500 ton
license, Four 100 ton licenses and one guy who just made AB. Three were
heading to 3rd Mate Unlimited Tonnage school, One was waiting for an opening
for a 3rd Mate job and now has it.

Without the sail endorsement you are not allowed to operate with paying
passengers or charge to deliver a sailing vessel. Besides you don't need a
license to take people out for a sail. Without the towing endorsement you
are not allowed to accept payment for towing but you can still tow. However
if you are doing either one for free or fun AND have a licenseyou are still
liable and held to a higher standard as if you were getting paid. It's a
two edged sword.

But then when the only reason to have one is a wall decoration does it
matter?

Cheers and fair winds

MST

Read the Colregs, Trash! Any time machinery is in use a sailboat
becomes a motorboat no matter how much drive is being provided
by sails. This is not so hard to understand. I have to laugh to
think so many small minds fail to comprehend it. What do you
think is the purpose of displaying the upside-down cone when
the sails are up and the motor is on? It means you are a motor
boat by the Rules. I can deliver any and all aux/sailboats
legally. The only vessel I cannot deliver legally or charter
legally is a pure sailboat (no machinery for propulsion).

S.Simon


"Schoonertrash" wrote in message ...
Huh? Sounds a bit like using the "I was listening to Limbaugh" excuse
when stopped for speeding. Good story til you try to use it for real. Yes,
you will get away with it. Until you get stopped. The mere act of having
sails raised is prima facie evidence that the vessel was sailing. Plenty of
probable cause to open an investigation.First thing that will happen is the
USCG OIC will ask you for your license. Then they keep it pending outcome
of their investigation. You won't need it anymore. They have no sense of
humour with smartasses and sea lawyer wannabes that think they are stupid.

In the area of not making a living with a sixpack license. For sure if you
are limited to no endorsements and near coastal and think you will rely on
the sailing trade. 100 ton licenses are practical WITH a towing
endorsement, with a radar endorsement and with any other endorsement you can
tag on. and only on powered commercial vessels. Beyond that it takes
STCW-95 qualifications for anything in excess of 150 miles offshore.

What it is good for is measuring some ability (book learning not practical)
and indicates you MAY be able to actually perform. But unlike a British
license it doesn't mean you have any practical ability beyond taking written
tests. Combine it with an AB Card and a test of practical ability is
included. Yes, AB's take the exact same ColRegs test as so the 100
tonners. On our bridge team last trip we had seven AB's including the
Bo's'n. One 1600 ton Captain/unlimited tonnage Mate license, One 500 ton
license, Four 100 ton licenses and one guy who just made AB. Three were
heading to 3rd Mate Unlimited Tonnage school, One was waiting for an opening
for a 3rd Mate job and now has it.

Without the sail endorsement you are not allowed to operate with paying
passengers or charge to deliver a sailing vessel. Besides you don't need a
license to take people out for a sail. Without the towing endorsement you
are not allowed to accept payment for towing but you can still tow. However
if you are doing either one for free or fun AND have a licenseyou are still
liable and held to a higher standard as if you were getting paid. It's a
two edged sword.

But then when the only reason to have one is a wall decoration does it
matter?

Cheers and fair winds

MST

Simple Simon wrote:

Read the Colregs, Trash!

Bwahahahahahahahahahha

You just can't get past those COLREGS can you Nil? They just keep coming
back to bite your old ass ... try using the COLREGS as an excuse for not
having a sail or aux sail endorsement on your tiny little toy ticket.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahah Busted!

Any time machinery is in use a sailboat
becomes a motorboat no matter how much drive is being provided
by sails. This is not so hard to understand. I have to laugh to
think so many small minds fail to comprehend it.

I find it hard to believe you write this stuff and actually post it!

You aren't thicker than 2 short planks, you are thicker than 3!

I can deliver any and all aux/sailboats
legally. The only vessel I cannot deliver legally or charter
legally is a pure sailboat (no machinery for propulsion).

Tell it to the Coasties, they need a laugh once in a while too.

Do you even know what a sailboat or an auxiliary sailboat is? It doesn't
appear that you have reached that level of nautical knowledge yet.

Bwahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahah "Captain" indeed ... You aren't
even master of your own fantasies, Nil.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahah just another internet wannabe whose
mouth is bigger than his boat.

Rick

Is the machinery called a way back machine??

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Read the Colregs, Trash! Any time machinery is in use a sailboat
becomes a motorboat no matter how much drive is being provided
by sails. This is not so hard to understand. I have to laugh to
think so many small minds fail to comprehend it. What do you
think is the purpose of displaying the upside-down cone when
the sails are up and the motor is on? It means you are a motor
boat by the Rules. I can deliver any and all aux/sailboats
legally. The only vessel I cannot deliver legally or charter
legally is a pure sailboat (no machinery for propulsion).

S.Simon


"Schoonertrash" wrote in message
...
Huh? Sounds a bit like using the "I was listening to Limbaugh" excuse
when stopped for speeding. Good story til you try to use it for real.
Yes,
you will get away with it. Until you get stopped. The mere act of
having
sails raised is prima facie evidence that the vessel was sailing.
Plenty of
probable cause to open an investigation.First thing that will happen is
the
USCG OIC will ask you for your license. Then they keep it pending
outcome
of their investigation. You won't need it anymore. They have no sense
of
humour with smartasses and sea lawyer wannabes that think they are
stupid.

In the area of not making a living with a sixpack license. For sure if
you
are limited to no endorsements and near coastal and think you will rely
on
the sailing trade. 100 ton licenses are practical WITH a towing
endorsement, with a radar endorsement and with any other endorsement you
can
tag on. and only on powered commercial vessels. Beyond that it takes
STCW-95 qualifications for anything in excess of 150 miles offshore.

What it is good for is measuring some ability (book learning not
practical)
and indicates you MAY be able to actually perform. But unlike a British
license it doesn't mean you have any practical ability beyond taking
written
tests. Combine it with an AB Card and a test of practical ability is
included. Yes, AB's take the exact same ColRegs test as so the 100
tonners. On our bridge team last trip we had seven AB's including the
Bo's'n. One 1600 ton Captain/unlimited tonnage Mate license, One 500
ton
license, Four 100 ton licenses and one guy who just made AB. Three were
heading to 3rd Mate Unlimited Tonnage school, One was waiting for an
opening
for a 3rd Mate job and now has it.

Without the sail endorsement you are not allowed to operate with paying
passengers or charge to deliver a sailing vessel. Besides you don't need
a
license to take people out for a sail. Without the towing endorsement
you
are not allowed to accept payment for towing but you can still tow.
However
if you are doing either one for free or fun AND have a licenseyou are
still
liable and held to a higher standard as if you were getting paid. It's
a
two edged sword.

But then when the only reason to have one is a wall decoration does it
matter?

Cheers and fair winds

MST

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

Is the machinery called a way back machine??

I think Nil is in desperate need of "way back machine."

He sticks his scrawny neck so far out on his ingorant tirades that he
will never find his "way back" no matter how much he backpedals, posts
little graphical hissy fits, changes his terms, or claims he said
something else.

I think Nil is so far "at sea" on this one he will probably submit it as
sailing time for renewing his motorboat license.

Rick

G Think the term normally used, is "take home".

I love reading this argument, from Neal ....would love to be a fly on
the bulkhead, the day one of Uncle Sammie's CGers stop him.

otn

Jonathan Ganz wrote:
Is the machinery called a way back machine??

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...

Read the Colregs, Trash! Any time machinery is in use a sailboat
becomes a motorboat no matter how much drive is being provided
by sails. This is not so hard to understand. I have to laugh to
think so many small minds fail to comprehend it. What do you
think is the purpose of displaying the upside-down cone when
the sails are up and the motor is on? It means you are a motor
boat by the Rules. I can deliver any and all aux/sailboats
legally. The only vessel I cannot deliver legally or charter
legally is a pure sailboat (no machinery for propulsion).

S.Simon


"Schoonertrash" wrote in message

...

Huh? Sounds a bit like using the "I was listening to Limbaugh" excuse
when stopped for speeding. Good story til you try to use it for real.

Yes,

you will get away with it. Until you get stopped. The mere act of

having

sails raised is prima facie evidence that the vessel was sailing.

Plenty of

probable cause to open an investigation.First thing that will happen is

the

USCG OIC will ask you for your license. Then they keep it pending

outcome

of their investigation. You won't need it anymore. They have no sense

of

humour with smartasses and sea lawyer wannabes that think they are

stupid.

In the area of not making a living with a sixpack license. For sure if

you

are limited to no endorsements and near coastal and think you will rely

on

the sailing trade. 100 ton licenses are practical WITH a towing
endorsement, with a radar endorsement and with any other endorsement you

can

tag on. and only on powered commercial vessels. Beyond that it takes
STCW-95 qualifications for anything in excess of 150 miles offshore.

What it is good for is measuring some ability (book learning not

practical)

and indicates you MAY be able to actually perform. But unlike a British
license it doesn't mean you have any practical ability beyond taking

written

tests. Combine it with an AB Card and a test of practical ability is
included. Yes, AB's take the exact same ColRegs test as so the 100
tonners. On our bridge team last trip we had seven AB's including the
Bo's'n. One 1600 ton Captain/unlimited tonnage Mate license, One 500

ton

license, Four 100 ton licenses and one guy who just made AB. Three were
heading to 3rd Mate Unlimited Tonnage school, One was waiting for an

opening

for a 3rd Mate job and now has it.

Without the sail endorsement you are not allowed to operate with paying
passengers or charge to deliver a sailing vessel. Besides you don't need

a

license to take people out for a sail. Without the towing endorsement

you

are not allowed to accept payment for towing but you can still tow.

However

if you are doing either one for free or fun AND have a licenseyou are

still

liable and held to a higher standard as if you were getting paid. It's

a

two edged sword.

But then when the only reason to have one is a wall decoration does it
matter?

Cheers and fair winds

MST

What makes you think the ColRegs have anything with the licensing regulations? This makes as much
sense as using Webster's as the reference for nautical terminology (some you do frequently).

There is no reference to licensing in the ColRegs, not is there any mention of the ColRegs in the
licensing regs, other than comments that one will be tested on their knowledge of the ColRegs. The
Inland version of the ColRegs, and other associated regulations are in 33CFR, while the licensing
regs are all in 46CFR.

A quick scan of 46CFR10 (The Code of Federal Regulations, Title 46 [Shipping] Part 10 [Licensing or
Maritime Personnel]) reveals that the phase "sail, or sail auxiliary" is used many times.

Here's an example, perhaps the one that would apply to Neal:

Sec. 10.454 Service requirements for mate of Great Lakes and inland
steam or motor vessels of not more than 200 gross tons.

(a) The minimum service required to qualify an applicant for a
license as mate of Great Lakes and inland steam or motor vessels of not
more than 200 gross tons is six months of service in the deck department
of steam or motor, sail, or auxiliary sail vessels. To obtain authority
to serve on the Great Lakes, three months of the required service must
have been on Great Lakes waters, otherwise the license will be limited
to the inland waters of the United States (excluding the Great Lakes).
(b) In order to obtain an endorsement on this license for sail or
auxiliary sail vessels, the applicant must submit evidence of three months of service
on sail or auxiliary sail vessels.

Its pretty clear that the "auxiliary sail" endorsement is what would apply to most of our vessels.
Unfortunately, the CFR never formally defines "auxiliary sail," but the do "include by reference"
the ABYC definitions, which I believe are quite clear.

So, Neal, you may be able to claim that if you never raise the sail, you are a powerboat. But with
the sail up you are either a sail, or auxiliary sail, neither of which are you licensed for.

--
-jeff


"Simple Simon" wrote in message ...
Read the Colregs, Trash! Any time machinery is in use a sailboat
becomes a motorboat no matter how much drive is being provided
by sails. This is not so hard to understand. I have to laugh to
think so many small minds fail to comprehend it. What do you
think is the purpose of displaying the upside-down cone when
the sails are up and the motor is on? It means you are a motor
boat by the Rules. I can deliver any and all aux/sailboats
legally. The only vessel I cannot deliver legally or charter
legally is a pure sailboat (no machinery for propulsion).

S.Simon


"Schoonertrash" wrote in message ...
Huh? Sounds a bit like using the "I was listening to Limbaugh" excuse
when stopped for speeding. Good story til you try to use it for real. Yes,
you will get away with it. Until you get stopped. The mere act of having
sails raised is prima facie evidence that the vessel was sailing. Plenty of
probable cause to open an investigation.First thing that will happen is the
USCG OIC will ask you for your license. Then they keep it pending outcome
of their investigation. You won't need it anymore. They have no sense of
humour with smartasses and sea lawyer wannabes that think they are stupid.

In the area of not making a living with a sixpack license. For sure if you
are limited to no endorsements and near coastal and think you will rely on
the sailing trade. 100 ton licenses are practical WITH a towing
endorsement, with a radar endorsement and with any other endorsement you can
tag on. and only on powered commercial vessels. Beyond that it takes
STCW-95 qualifications for anything in excess of 150 miles offshore.

What it is good for is measuring some ability (book learning not practical)
and indicates you MAY be able to actually perform. But unlike a British
license it doesn't mean you have any practical ability beyond taking written
tests. Combine it with an AB Card and a test of practical ability is
included. Yes, AB's take the exact same ColRegs test as so the 100
tonners. On our bridge team last trip we had seven AB's including the
Bo's'n. One 1600 ton Captain/unlimited tonnage Mate license, One 500 ton
license, Four 100 ton licenses and one guy who just made AB. Three were
heading to 3rd Mate Unlimited Tonnage school, One was waiting for an opening
for a 3rd Mate job and now has it.

Without the sail endorsement you are not allowed to operate with paying
passengers or charge to deliver a sailing vessel. Besides you don't need a
license to take people out for a sail. Without the towing endorsement you
are not allowed to accept payment for towing but you can still tow. However
if you are doing either one for free or fun AND have a licenseyou are still
liable and held to a higher standard as if you were getting paid. It's a
two edged sword.

But then when the only reason to have one is a wall decoration does it
matter?

Cheers and fair winds

MST