felton wrote:


While I agree with your premise, I am really trying to determine if my
time would be better spent learning something more likely to have some
use to me.

Well, celestial is a rarely used skill even by passagemakers any more. If
you're going coastal cruising, even less so.


I tend to believe that celestial is so far down the list
of skills that *might* be useful, that perhaps my time would be better
invested in an amateur radio license, for example. There must be
other ways to improve myself in some way that may be useful, rather
than just interesting.

Agreed.


If it keeps you from being lost at sea after your GPS is either fried,
dropped, or soaked, then clestial skills (even if it is only shooting sun
lines) will bring your butt into port alive.

True enough, but it seems likely that I could counter those risks more
easily than learning celestial navigation, but I do concede that it
would be useful in those circumstances.

Here's the rub- how much do you want to be able to save your own bacon when
(not if) your electronic doodads go down the drain? You can always beg a
position from a passing boat, or if you've kept a good DR you can probably find
your way close enough to the harbor mouth to spot the high rise hotels.

I've heard stories of people relying on GPS in really hair raising
circumstances, such as running inlets blind in storms. They lived to tell the
tale, but it's still just another form of Russian Roulette.

BTW from anecdotal evidence, the failure rate of electronic nav aids on
passages is about 10%. Obviously this doesn't include incidents where loss of
ships navigation lead to fatality





Personally, I count all knowledge as a net gain. YMMV.

I do too, but I haven't signed up for piano lessons, either

Me neither, but then I do take my guitar when cruising... it gets a lot more
use than my sextant...

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

I carry a sextant and tables for HO249 and learned how
to use them about ten years ago. I haven't used them
since and would have to learn all over again.

Like I said, it's pretty useless knowing it. I feel should
I ever have the need to pick up my sextant again that
I could get a fix accurate to five or ten miles with a few
hours review.

S.Simon - a former HO249 student


"otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net...
It depends on where you plan to cruise, and/or how much you want to know.
If during the majority of your cruising, you will stay within 1-2 days
of landfall, I wouldn't be too concerned about having the ability,
except as something you would care to know about.
However, if you will be making longer trips, out of sight of land, I
would consider it well worth the effort and ability.
You don't really need to know all the why's and wherefores of what you
are doing, but mainly the steps involved in going through the sight and
various tables, to come up with a solution (or basic inputs, for a
computer).
Although the Naval Academy does not make celestial a required course,
the Maritime Academies do, for those going for a deck license.
In reality, the choice is yours ..... you can carry a whole bunch of
spare batteries and handhelds, or a sextant, tables, and/or a calculator.
GPS advantage - turn it on and it works G
Celestial - needs practice to be good, and some never do become good.

otn

felton wrote:
I am wrestling with myself as to whether to continue my USPS course
work and sign up for the JN course, which is the first of two courses
dealing with celestial navigation. I have completed all the electives
and through Advanced Piloting, so it is decision time. I have heard
that even the Naval Academy doesn't teach celestial navigating skills
any longer.

Is celestial anything more than an interesting exercise these days or
is it worth the effort to learn for any meaningful use? Ultimately it
comes down to time invested/benefit to learn, like anything else.

At the risk of sounding "lubberly", I just wonder if this is time well
spent these days.

DSK wrote:

Me neither, but then I do take my guitar when cruising... it gets a
lot more use than my sextant...

Accoustic? Do you get any problems with moisture?


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

"Simple Simon" wrote in
:

It's pretty much a waste of time anymore.

You wouldn't say that if you took sailing seriously.

Bertie

DSK wrote:
Me neither, but then I do take my guitar when cruising... it gets a
lot more use than my sextant...

Wally wrote:
Accoustic? Do you get any problems with moisture?

Yes. The strings rust a lot faster than at home, but it's only a small
problem. I'm sure the salt & humidity don't help the guitar's structure
either. However I don't take expensive guitars cruising. My "main"
cruising guitar (an Alvarez copy of a Gibson J-200 arch-top jumbo) lasted
about 15 years, after which it still was imminently playable and sounded
great. I gave it to a Russian mechanic. It was a minor pain in the neck
because it was so big. I now have a small bodied Canadian folk guitar
which stows much easier and has gone for about 5 years.

The real problem with guitars & cruising is that I keep meeting much
better guitar players than myself, and cannot remember all the music
material I should be learning from them.

DSK

There are one thing in this thread that I think have been overlooked:

You should have 2 or 3 TOTALLY INDEPENDENT navigational aids. And when on a
passage - I'm thinking about more than a couple of days out of
sight of land - you would want systems that are not visually, terrestical,
based.

A backup handheld GPS is not "independent" of your normal GPS. Of course it
can be used if your normal GPS has a failure and if driven by AA batteries
it can function if your lead-accumulators have a malfunction, but if the GPS
system breaks down or is closed down, it won't function.

So what are the options ?
Radio-direction-finders.
Loran. (Is it still operational ?)
But if you run out of workable batteries and your electrical system is down,
these will also be out of order. (Water can do many things.)

It would be better to have a system that works without electricity at all.
Consequent dead-reconning, a good compass and a mechanical log could be an
option.
Celestial navigation an other - and with the advantage that it is
independent of what you have previously done or forgot to do.

So for a long distance cruiser I think that knowing how to use celestial
navigation is still a practical ability.

I agree that most sailors will not need this knowledge.

3 things speaks for celestial navigation:

1. It provides a totally independent means of determining a position when
out of sight of land. It is independent of man-made systems and
electricity.
2. It is fairly cheap and simple. A good plastic sextant will do the job.
(Chinese brass is recommended, because it is nicer to work with.)
3. It is fun and interesting, and it adds to your basic comprehension of the
universe and your position in it.

You can probably live without it, but if you sail the high seas it will
increase your safety and probably your appreciation of the world you live
in.

It's also quite dependent on weather. It's also tedious to do the numbers.
But, I agree, it's worth knowing. Then, when you miss Hawaii, you can
say with certainty... well, I only probably missed it by 60 nm.

"Aniculapeter" wrote in message
k...
There are one thing in this thread that I think have been overlooked:

You should have 2 or 3 TOTALLY INDEPENDENT navigational aids. And when on
a
passage - I'm thinking about more than a couple of days out of
sight of land - you would want systems that are not visually, terrestical,
based.

A backup handheld GPS is not "independent" of your normal GPS. Of course
it
can be used if your normal GPS has a failure and if driven by AA batteries
it can function if your lead-accumulators have a malfunction, but if the
GPS
system breaks down or is closed down, it won't function.

So what are the options ?
Radio-direction-finders.
Loran. (Is it still operational ?)
But if you run out of workable batteries and your electrical system is
down,
these will also be out of order. (Water can do many things.)

It would be better to have a system that works without electricity at all.
Consequent dead-reconning, a good compass and a mechanical log could be an
option.
Celestial navigation an other - and with the advantage that it is
independent of what you have previously done or forgot to do.

So for a long distance cruiser I think that knowing how to use celestial
navigation is still a practical ability.

I agree that most sailors will not need this knowledge.

3 things speaks for celestial navigation:

1. It provides a totally independent means of determining a position when
out of sight of land. It is independent of man-made systems and
electricity.
2. It is fairly cheap and simple. A good plastic sextant will do the job.
(Chinese brass is recommended, because it is nicer to work with.)
3. It is fun and interesting, and it adds to your basic comprehension of
the
universe and your position in it.

You can probably live without it, but if you sail the high seas it will
increase your safety and probably your appreciation of the world you live
in.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message ...
It's pretty much a waste of time anymore.

S.Simon

No Sailor can call himself a unlimited master without it.

Have you no sence of self reliability?
No pride in doing something on your own?

Or have you become a dependant of the system?

If the GPS system ever goes down, any person with Celestial navigation
experience will be worth his weight in gold.

Capt. American





felton wrote in message ...
I am wrestling with myself as to whether to continue my USPS course
work and sign up for the JN course, which is the first of two courses
dealing with celestial navigation. I have completed all the electives
and through Advanced Piloting, so it is decision time. I have heard
that even the Naval Academy doesn't teach celestial navigating skills
any longer.

Is celestial anything more than an interesting exercise these days or
is it worth the effort to learn for any meaningful use? Ultimately it
comes down to time invested/benefit to learn, like anything else.

At the risk of sounding "lubberly", I just wonder if this is time well
spent these days.

DSK wrote:

Accoustic? Do you get any problems with moisture?

Yes. The strings rust a lot faster than at home, but it's only a small
problem. I'm sure the salt & humidity don't help the guitar's
structure either. However I don't take expensive guitars cruising. My
"main" cruising guitar (an Alvarez copy of a Gibson J-200 arch-top
jumbo) lasted about 15 years, after which it still was imminently
playable and sounded great. ...

That sounds like a pretty good on-board working life.


... I gave it to a Russian mechanic. It was a
minor pain in the neck because it was so big. I now have a small
bodied Canadian folk guitar which stows much easier and has gone for
about 5 years.

I have a 3/4 size classical which is quite handy for messing about on. I
normally play electric or a dreadnought accoustic - the little classical has
a similar neck width, so it's easy to adapt to. It was also very cheap, so I
might end up taking it on the boat sometime.


The real problem with guitars & cruising is that I keep meeting much
better guitar players than myself, and cannot remember all the music
material I should be learning from them.

The trick is to 'remember' the good bits... ;-)


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

"Capt.American" wrote:

"Simple Simon" wrote
It's pretty much a waste of time anymore.

No Sailor can call himself a unlimited master without it.

Agreed, with an emphasis on "unlimited". ....

Have you no sence of self reliability?
No pride in doing something on your own?
Or have you become a dependant of the system?

*Everybody* is dependent on "the system" to one degree or another. The
only pride to be had is in being *slightly* less dependent than the dude
next door.


If the GPS system ever goes down, any person with Celestial navigation
experience will be worth his weight in gold.

But it will never go down. If the Yellowstone Caldera pops or the
recently reported astroid hits, wiping out all life on Earth, GPS
satellites will keep chirping away. http://www.trimble.com/gps/