| Home |
| Search |
| Today's Posts |
|
#41
|
|||
|
|||
A tough question for Jeff and Shen44
What name did I call him? Neal?
And what did I loose? "CANDChelp" wrote in message ... I wasn't name calling, I was just summarizing. You WERE name calling. Neal is right. You lost. RB |
|
#42
|
|||
|
|||
|
A tough question for Jeff and Shen44
Like I've said about a dozen times. Your quoting of the
rules that 'all vessels' must slow down or stop is proven wrong by the fact that 'all vessels' includes that Coast Guard vessel that is tied up to and servicing an aid to navigation. The Coast Guard vessel definitely in included in the Rule you posted below but it cannot stop because it is already stopped. The Rule does not specifically state it but it actually reads "All vessels (that are going to fast) must slow down or even stop if necessary." Use a little logic, man. You cannot continue to state absolutes and have any credibility at all. If absolute rules were the end-all then there would not have to be so many additional rules to qualify the absolutes. As for me claiming my vessel is not a vessel you are making false statements. My vessel is a vessel but, like the Coast Guard vessel that is already stopped my vessel cannot slow down to a safe speed because it never goes fast enough to be going a dangerous speed. Slowing down to a safe speed is ONLY necessary when a vessel is going faster than a safe speed. To claim any vessel which is already going at a safe speed must slow down to a safe speed because a rule says so it just plain ignorant. In a fog my vessel is lucky to go three or four knots. If this isn't a safe speed then Moroon is not a Canuk Frog! "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... "Simple Simon" wrote: And you cannot show where they do apply. How about: Rule 1(a): "These Rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels." NOW you're claiming your boat isn't even a vessel! Let's check the definition of "vessel" in Rule 3(a): "The word "vessel" includes every description of water craft, including nondisplacement craft and seaplanes, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water;" Yup, I can see where this is a tough call! |
|
#43
|
|||
|
|||
|
A tough question for Jeff and Shen44
"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... Oh, I forgot that English Major thing you have. Let me explain in simple words: If a sailboat can move 1600 feet between signals, you have a circle, 3200 feet in diameter, where the boat could be two minutes later. This is assuming you could pinpoint its position from the first blast, which is impossible. And you're saying that the other boat is somehow required to know where the sailboat is. More ignorance on display. The fog signal is required at least every two minutes. It can and should be sounded at shorter intervals by a prudent mariner. If I heard the fog signal of a motor vessel approaching, you can bet your boots I would be sounding my fog signal every ten or fifteen seconds to wake them up if nothing else. |
|
#44
|
|||
|
|||
|
A tough question for Jeff and Shen44
Subject: A tough question for Jeff and Shen44
From: "Simple Simon" Date: 07/29/2003 07:03 Pacific Standard Time Message-id: "Shen44" wrote in message Typically wrong ... If I'm stopped in my powerboat and you hit me in your sailboat, you were traveling at excessive/unsafe speed Not if you stopped right in front of me. Sailboats don't have brakes you know. You were wrong to stop right in front of me. That makes you the party primarily responsible for the collision. Your motorboat arrogance is showing again. You create a situation that causes a collision and then you seem to think you can blame it on the sailboat. It won't fly. ROFL We're in fog !!!! Just HOW am I supposed to know I've stopped in front of your path? .....don't gots no radar thingy. Bingo .... Typically wrong ..... again Shen |
|
#45
|
|||
|
|||
|
A tough question for Jeff and Shen44
bject: A tough question for Jeff and Shen44
From: "Simple Simon" Date: 07/29/2003 07:00 Pacific Standard Time Message-id: "Shen44" wrote in message ... HUH? how's anybody to know what the other guy is doing if they can't see them or don't have radar? That's the purpose of the one prolonged/two short blasts. It tells everyone who hears it that the vessel making the sound is a sailboat, NUC, RAM, etc. and needs to be given a wide berth so as not to cause a close quarters situation. The motor vessel does not have to know what the other vessel is doing; it needs only to stay clear and not cause a close quarters situation. ROFL The sound signal only tells you that a vessel of some type is out there ...... nothing else ...... zap insufficient data ...."assumptions shall not be made on scanty information" SHEN |
|
#47
|
|||
|
|||
|
A tough question for Jeff and Shen44
Subject: A tough question for Jeff and Shen44
From: "Simple Simon" Date: 07/29/2003 06:34 Pacific Standard Time Message-id: snip Where does it say that in the Rules? NUC means a vessel through some exceptional circumstance cannot maneuver as required by these rules .... a becalmed sailboat with no mechanical power seems to fit this bill perfectly. Wrong! Being becalmed is a normal navigational situation for a sailboat. It cannot be considered an exceptional circumstance. ROFL show me where it says that in the rules ..... show me a legal precedence Exceptional circumstance mostly means a mechanical failure of some sort. Steering hydraulics kaput on a motor vessel would make her a NUC. Broken rudder on a sailboat would make her a NUC. Shen I'm disappointed in your response. You are clearly ignorant when it comes to sailing. S.Simon. ROFL awwwww .....well show me the proof you're correct Shen |
|
#48
|
|||
|
|||
|
A tough question for Jeff and Shen44
Subject: A tough question for Jeff and Shen44
From: "Simple Simon" Date: 07/29/2003 06:23 Pacific Standard Time Message-id: "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... S.Simon wrote: It does not say take all way off so you stop in the path of the sailboat. First, the motor vessel is required to take necessary action to avoid a close quarters situation. And just how is the powerboat supposed to do this in thick fog, Putz? The reason for vessels being required to sound fog signals that identify them is because fog signals enable vessels to plot a bearing of another vessel. Typically wrong Further, the reason certain vessels (sailboats, NUC, RAM, etc.) are required to sound a fog signal peculiar to them and different from a motor vessel is so motor vessels can not only become aware of bearing but of what class of vessel is on that bearing. Typically wrong because incomplete. So, a motor vessel upon hearing in a fog a signal of one prolonged and two short blasts knows that the vessel that made the signal bears whatever degrees Wrong ....good way to get yourself kilt. and is a vessel that may not be able to take action to avoid a collision. The information that is lacking is range, speed and course of the vessel making the fog signal. What is known is that motor vessel must take action early and adequately to avoid a close quarters situation. Most often the best way to avoid a close quarters situation is to change the heading away from a possible close quarters situation with the vessel that may be unable to do the same by virtue of the signal it sounds. Argueably wrong This means that the best course of action for a sailboat is to hold course and speed (which speed is already slow and already safe) until and unless a close quarters situation develops. This eliminates variables and allows the motorboat to make sure it is well clear before it gets back onto its intended course. Wrong This also means that the motor vessel gives way. It becomes the give-way vessel. Though not specifically stated in the restricted visibility rules this means there is a give way vessel created by the Rules for restricted visibility. Wrong This means there is a pecking order also created, though it is an abbreviated pecking order because sailboats, NUC, RAM etc, don't have individual different signals but the same signal identifying their grouping. Wrong you typically fail to mention the powerdriven vessel in this mix (more later) The whole point, in fact the letter of the law is that both boats "shall reduce her speed to the minimum at which she can be kept on course. She shall if necessary take all her way off and, in any event, navigate with extreme caution until danger of collision is over." A sailboat navigating in a fog already is operating at slow and safe speed. She is operating with extreme caution because she knows by the signal heard that a motor vessel is on the prowl and probably going way too fast for the conditions and relying on her radar way too much so she can keep on schedule. A sailboat navigating in a fog cannot, like a motorboat, choose her speed. A sailboat is at the mercy of wind direction and wind speed which is most often low or non-existent in a fog. Any rule that requires a sailboat do take an action she cannot take is not a rule intended to apply to the sailboat. ROFL Wrong Please read the rules before commenting further. The Rules in and of themselves mean nothing. They only mean something when applied to real life situations on the water between vessels. One cannot make blanket statements based on the Rules alone. Every case is different. Your insistence on saying "all vessels" must slow to a safe speed does not apply to "all vessels". I proved that a couple of times with my example of a Coast Guard vessel tied up to and servicing a navigational aid. Another example would be an anchored vessel. Yet another would be a vessel being towed. It follows that the Rules are meant to be a guiding hand to prevent collisions and not a rigid set of laws to which there are no exceptions or no special circumstances that make them not appear to be what they seem. What a mixmash of gobblede goop the above is. Your outlook is too stringent, rigorous and inflexible. You will get yourself into trouble because you fail to consider special circumstances such as sailboats already proceeding at slow and safe speeds somehow being required to go even slower to the point where they cannot maneuver with any kind of efficiency. You even want sailboats to stop when I have demonstrated this is often not even possible. Rules, as well-intentioned as they may be, cannot cover all contingencies. People, when writing rules that are primarily motor boat-oriented, cannot understand, let alone foresee, any and all circumstances for sailboats, which boats the operation of they are mostly ignorant. In fact, when collisions occur, it is hugely lopsided and the fault of motor boats the majority of the time. This alone should tell you that it's motorboaters who should listen to sailors and their unique perspective and their superior understanding of the actual, real life workings of the Rules and not vice versa. ROFL Shen |
|
#49
|
|||
|
|||
|
A tough question for Jeff and Shen44
Seems this one went belly-up .... thanks AOL.
OK Neal, here's a scenario with some questions .... You're proceeding in the Mother of all Pea-soup fogs (can't see your bow), sounding one prolong followed by two short blast and hear a fog signal, someplace forward of your beam (can't exactly tell where, because sound in fog can be distorted) of one prolong followed by two short. What is it? Where is it? What's it doing?What must you do? Are we on collision course? How do you know the answers to any of these questions? BTW, it's me....EG...now, now .... maybe I bought back that 26' Contessa I used to own....then again....maybe not. At any rate, I ain'ts got no stinkin radar, and the wind's a nice steady 12k from the SE (not that the direction really matters) Tell me, Neal ....whatcha gonna do....and why? Oh ... yeah.....when you give me your answers I'll let you know what I'm on ...... Pull a "Neal" here...BTW, never saw the trap you set. Know how to tell your real close to a big ship in fog? .... When you hear the echo of your fog signal bouncing off it's side...... Shen |
|
#50
|
|||
|
|||
|
A tough question for Jeff and Shen44
"Shen44" wrote in message ... Seems this one went belly-up .... thanks AOL. OK Neal, here's a scenario with some questions .... You're proceeding in the Mother of all Pea-soup fogs (can't see your bow), sounding one prolong followed by two short blast and hear a fog signal, someplace forward of your beam (can't exactly tell where, because sound in fog can be distorted) of one prolong followed by two short. What is it? Where is it? What's it doing?What must you do? Are we on collision course? How do you know the answers to any of these questions? I can tell it is NOT a motor boat. I can tell is either a sailboat, a NUC, a RAM, or one of the other vessels that sounds a one prolong/two short blast signal. Where is it? It is somewhere on a line between me and the sound signal it produces. What's it doing? Can't be told because it can be doing any number of things. What must I do? I must determine if a risk of collision exists before I do anything else. If I determine a risk of collision exists then I must act to avoid a collision which might mean I can make a course change or it might mean holding to my present course and speed of three or four knots until further information becomes available. Are we on a collision course. We might be but that will take some time to determine. If the signal stays on the same bearing and appears to be getting louder then we are on a collision course How do I know the answer to these questions? The answers are known when sufficient information becomes available to answer them and not before. As for a pea soup fog so think that I cannot see to my bow which is all of twenty feet away when I'm at the tiller, there exists no fog so thick. It is a myth. It is perhaps correct to say a fog is so thick that a ship that has the bow hundreds of feet or hundreds of yards from the helm may not be able to see to the bow but don't attempt to say the same thing about a small vessel such as mine. In the thickest fog that ever occurred upon the seven seas I could see and avoid a collision with any ship or sailboat my size, provided that is, if the ship were, indeed, proceeding at a safe speed which they rarely are. Another small sailboat could be going along at three or four knots like me and even if we were headed right at each other the combined speed would only be eight knots. Eight knots is not a problem as far as taking action to avoid a collision. I only wish shipping would slow down to eight knots. BTW, it's me....EG...now, now .... maybe I bought back that 26' Contessa I used to own....then again....maybe not. At any rate, I ain'ts got no stinkin radar, and the wind's a nice steady 12k from the SE (not that the direction really matters) Tell me, Neal ....whatcha gonna do....and why? Oh ... yeah.....when you give me your answers I'll let you know what I'm on ..... Pull a "Neal" here...BTW, never saw the trap you set. Know how to tell your real close to a big ship in fog? .... When you hear the echo of your fog signal bouncing off it's side...... Shen |
Linear Mode
