"Charles Momsen" wrote in message
...

"Joe" wrote in message
...
On Nov 22, 10:16 am, "Charles Momsen" wrote:
Story he

http://www.king5.com/localnews/stori...nomy_abandoned...

Hey Gilligan hope all is well in Colorado,

Here there are over 300 boats abandoned on the lake .

http://www.galvnews.com/story.lasso?...13B4Upx1BE88DD

The EL Lago Marina was one of the worst wiped out, sadly Silvers wife
could not handle the pressure.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?se...cal&id=6517696

Joe

Hi Joe,

Things are pretty good here for the most part. No real big unemployment
problems since most of those who lost their jobs went back to Mexico. A
good number of foreclosures on houses but the small investor is locked out
because lenders have a limit on the number of houses you can have
mortgaged. Gas is under $2.00, food and ammunition prices are dropping so
it's not all gloom and doom. I plan on getting down your way in a few
weeks to see my old yacht, its new owner and sniff around for another fine
addition to the fleet.

I hope you are getting a new RedCloud II going, it's people like you that
make America great - independent, self reliant people that never give up
on their vision.

Partially true but a vision will not be realized without hard work and
competent action. Although Joe has demonstrated he does not fear hard work
it is the competence angle upon which he has yet to get a firm grip.

Wilbur Hubbard

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...

"Charles Momsen" wrote in message
...

"Joe" wrote in message
...
On Nov 22, 10:16 am, "Charles Momsen" wrote:
Story he

http://www.king5.com/localnews/stori...nomy_abandoned...

Hey Gilligan hope all is well in Colorado,

Here there are over 300 boats abandoned on the lake .

http://www.galvnews.com/story.lasso?...13B4Upx1BE88DD

The EL Lago Marina was one of the worst wiped out, sadly Silvers wife
could not handle the pressure.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?se...cal&id=6517696

Joe

Hi Joe,

Things are pretty good here for the most part. No real big unemployment
problems since most of those who lost their jobs went back to Mexico. A
good number of foreclosures on houses but the small investor is locked
out because lenders have a limit on the number of houses you can have
mortgaged. Gas is under $2.00, food and ammunition prices are dropping so
it's not all gloom and doom. I plan on getting down your way in a few
weeks to see my old yacht, its new owner and sniff around for another
fine addition to the fleet.

I hope you are getting a new RedCloud II going, it's people like you that
make America great - independent, self reliant people that never give up
on their vision.

Partially true but a vision will not be realized without hard work and
competent action. Although Joe has demonstrated he does not fear hard work
it is the competence angle upon which he has yet to get a firm grip.

Wilbur Hubbard


Right you are Wilbur and there's also luck, both good and bad. I believe Joe
has all it takes and more to be successful.

"Charles Momsen" wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...

"Charles Momsen" wrote in message
...

"Joe" wrote in message
...
On Nov 22, 10:16 am, "Charles Momsen" wrote:
Story he

http://www.king5.com/localnews/stori...nomy_abandoned...

Hey Gilligan hope all is well in Colorado,

Here there are over 300 boats abandoned on the lake .

http://www.galvnews.com/story.lasso?...13B4Upx1BE88DD

The EL Lago Marina was one of the worst wiped out, sadly Silvers wife
could not handle the pressure.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?se...cal&id=6517696

Joe

Hi Joe,

Things are pretty good here for the most part. No real big unemployment
problems since most of those who lost their jobs went back to Mexico. A
good number of foreclosures on houses but the small investor is locked
out because lenders have a limit on the number of houses you can have
mortgaged. Gas is under $2.00, food and ammunition prices are dropping
so it's not all gloom and doom. I plan on getting down your way in a few
weeks to see my old yacht, its new owner and sniff around for another
fine addition to the fleet.

I hope you are getting a new RedCloud II going, it's people like you
that make America great - independent, self reliant people that never
give up on their vision.

Partially true but a vision will not be realized without hard work and
competent action. Although Joe has demonstrated he does not fear hard
work it is the competence angle upon which he has yet to get a firm grip.

Wilbur Hubbard


Right you are Wilbur and there's also luck, both good and bad. I believe
Joe has all it takes and more to be successful.

Perhaps, but only time will tell.

What concerns me is he's too full of pride. I have yet to read where he
admits he screwed up royally in losing Red Cloud unnecessarily. I fear that
until and unless he steps back and takes a realistic appraisal of the whys
and wherefores he's doomed to continue his "bad luck." Part of being a man
is to admit one's mistakes and not continue to always blame them on fate or
bad luck. Until one can admit a mistake one will never be able to correct a
mistake or forestall the same thing happening in the future.


Wilbur Hubbard

Frankly, I don't see 99% of boats on the market right now as a
"bargain" unless you have very limited sailing plans.


"Charles Momsen" wrote:
But Doug, mass produced boats are not marketed for the slim 1%


Maybe not, but they bring a lot of needless frustration & difficulty
to the 99%

For example, look at the large number of 'production boats' that have
winches in unworkable locations. Can the boat be sailed in anything
but a drifter without using the winches? No.

Another example... mooring cleats. Undersized, not fastened or bedded
or backed properly. Guaranteed heaache to use, a safety issue, a
maintenance issue... the builders & sellers assume that the buyers are
idiots.

I could go on & on & on....

Why are 99% of boats on the market designed & built to be sold to
idiots? It's not that the buyers *are* idiots, it's that most want a
boat really badly and there's nothing else to choose from.





2nd, most boats on the 2nd-hand market are badly neglected.


Most boats? What is your sample size for this conclusion?


At least a couple of hundred. I go to a lot of different marinas &
sailing clubs and have a habit of taking a look around at each... heck
there are at least 60 boats for sale in the 5 marinas and 2 sailing
clubs that I go to regularly (right in our area). It doesn't take a
genius so see frayed lines, corroded fittings, etc etc on almost all
the ones with 'for sale' signs... heck it's nothing special, close to
50% of all the boats I see are prety badly neglected. Probably at
least 50% of the boats in these places have been sailed less than 10
times in the past 5 years.





..... So, pick a boat you really really like and will
find rewarding to own & sail. Then it will be worth the work & effort
you put into it.

I think that is what most people do. The problem is you don't like 99%
of boats and other people may like 20% or 50% of boats


Prob'ly right.

Like I said, I'm picky! Either that or I'm spoiled, having owned a
series of boats & dogs that were far above the average.


Since the Democratic controlled Congress and the future administration
will be and are saddling our children with massive debt, I doubt boats will
be in the game plan for many in decades to come. There will be no rebound
for boats. Yachts will become what they once were - toys for the very, very
wealthy.


And you can be sure it's all the Democrats fault.... not a single
Republican has any share of the blame!

Isn't democracy just awful, the way you brilliant & perfect people
have to suffer the voting mistakes of the average folk? It's a shame
that President Bush & Vice President Cheney didn't just outlaw the
Democratic Party back when they had full control. Think what the
country would be like if they'd put all those libby-rulls in re-
education camps!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

wrote in message
...
Frankly, I don't see 99% of boats on the market right now as a
"bargain" unless you have very limited sailing plans.


"Charles Momsen" wrote:
But Doug, mass produced boats are not marketed for the slim 1%


Maybe not, but they bring a lot of needless frustration & difficulty
to the 99%

Maybe not so. Maybe those people just don't care.



For example, look at the large number of 'production boats' that have
winches in unworkable locations. Can the boat be sailed in anything
but a drifter without using the winches? No.

Another example... mooring cleats. Undersized, not fastened or bedded
or backed properly. Guaranteed heaache to use, a safety issue, a
maintenance issue... the builders & sellers assume that the buyers are
idiots.

I could go on & on & on....

It's costly to build a good boat and most people can't afford them. If one
wants to sell boats to the masses it appears corners must be cut.


Why are 99% of boats on the market designed & built to be sold to
idiots? It's not that the buyers *are* idiots, it's that most want a
boat really badly and there's nothing else to choose from.

They can try to buy a good boat, but it might be out of their means.

Name 5 great blue water cruisers 30 feet or more for less than 100K new.
Less than 150K. Less than 200K. Less than 250K.

Off all the boats sold, what percentage is over 100K?






2nd, most boats on the 2nd-hand market are badly neglected.


Most boats? What is your sample size for this conclusion?


At least a couple of hundred. I go to a lot of different marinas &
sailing clubs and have a habit of taking a look around at each... heck
there are at least 60 boats for sale in the 5 marinas and 2 sailing
clubs that I go to regularly (right in our area). It doesn't take a
genius so see frayed lines, corroded fittings, etc etc on almost all
the ones with 'for sale' signs... heck it's nothing special, close to
50% of all the boats I see are prety badly neglected. Probably at
least 50% of the boats in these places have been sailed less than 10
times in the past 5 years.

Doug, all fittings corrode and lines do fray. If it's for sale the owner may
not want to sink money and effort into new lines or removing corrosion. The
bright side (no pun intended) is that half of the boats are low mileage. I
don't think a sample of 200-300 boats is enough to make conclusions for all
boats. But it is true that most of the boats for sale you have seen are
badly neglected. Can you say the same for boats you have seen that are not
for sale? For the most part I think people sell their boats because they
have lost interest in them.






..... So, pick a boat you really really like and will
find rewarding to own & sail. Then it will be worth the work & effort
you put into it.

I think that is what most people do. The problem is you don't like
99%
of boats and other people may like 20% or 50% of boats


Prob'ly right.

Like I said, I'm picky! Either that or I'm spoiled, having owned a
series of boats & dogs that were far above the average.

Would you say that Hunter you had was far above average? Was it that way
from the factory or did you make it above average?



Since the Democratic controlled Congress and the future
administration
will be and are saddling our children with massive debt, I doubt boats
will
be in the game plan for many in decades to come. There will be no rebound
for boats. Yachts will become what they once were - toys for the very,
very
wealthy.


And you can be sure it's all the Democrats fault.... not a single
Republican has any share of the blame!

Blame them too if you like. I'm simply holding the Democrats to their word.
They were going to get us out of Iraq. Remember pay-go? Bush's failed
policies? I do.


Isn't democracy just awful, the way you brilliant & perfect people
have to suffer the voting mistakes of the average folk?

It's not as bad as the marketplace where you brilliant and perfectly
knowledgeable sailors have to suffer the consequences of mass marketed boats
for idiots.


It's a shame
that President Bush & Vice President Cheney didn't just outlaw the
Democratic Party back when they had full control. Think what the
country would be like if they'd put all those libby-rulls in re-
education camps!

FYI: I'm not a Republican and it's more fun to wind the liberals up. BTW, do
you still think the Fed is doing a great job?



Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...

"Charles Momsen" wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...

"Charles Momsen" wrote in message
...

"Joe" wrote in message
...
On Nov 22, 10:16 am, "Charles Momsen" wrote:
Story he

http://www.king5.com/localnews/stori...nomy_abandoned...

Hey Gilligan hope all is well in Colorado,

Here there are over 300 boats abandoned on the lake .

http://www.galvnews.com/story.lasso?...13B4Upx1BE88DD

The EL Lago Marina was one of the worst wiped out, sadly Silvers wife
could not handle the pressure.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?se...cal&id=6517696

Joe

Hi Joe,

Things are pretty good here for the most part. No real big unemployment
problems since most of those who lost their jobs went back to Mexico. A
good number of foreclosures on houses but the small investor is locked
out because lenders have a limit on the number of houses you can have
mortgaged. Gas is under $2.00, food and ammunition prices are dropping
so it's not all gloom and doom. I plan on getting down your way in a
few weeks to see my old yacht, its new owner and sniff around for
another fine addition to the fleet.

I hope you are getting a new RedCloud II going, it's people like you
that make America great - independent, self reliant people that never
give up on their vision.

Partially true but a vision will not be realized without hard work and
competent action. Although Joe has demonstrated he does not fear hard
work it is the competence angle upon which he has yet to get a firm
grip.

Wilbur Hubbard


Right you are Wilbur and there's also luck, both good and bad. I believe
Joe has all it takes and more to be successful.

Perhaps, but only time will tell.

What concerns me is he's too full of pride. I have yet to read where he
admits he screwed up royally in losing Red Cloud unnecessarily. I fear
that until and unless he steps back and takes a realistic appraisal of the
whys and wherefores he's doomed to continue his "bad luck." Part of being
a man is to admit one's mistakes and not continue to always blame them on
fate or bad luck. Until one can admit a mistake one will never be able to
correct a mistake or forestall the same thing happening in the future.


That's a true concern and wise advice. I think Joe has what it takes.

On Nov 23, 11:36*am, "Charles Momsen" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

...
On Nov 22, 10:16 am, "Charles Momsen" wrote:

Story he

http://www.king5.com/localnews/stori...nomy_abandoned...

Hey Gilligan hope all is well in Colorado,

*Here there are over 300 boats abandoned on the lake .

http://www.galvnews.com/story.lasso?...84&-session=Th....

The EL Lago Marina was one of the worst wiped out, sadly Silvers wife
could not handle the pressure.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?se...cal&id=6517696

Joe

Hi Joe,

Things are pretty good here for the most part. No real big unemployment
problems since most of those who lost their jobs went back to Mexico.

We still have a large contigent of Mexicans and since the storm a
influx of Floridians here to earn money picking up trash and fixing
things. They are easy to spot as they drive slow with one turn signal
on

A good
number of foreclosures on houses but the small investor is locked out
because lenders have a limit on the number of houses you can have mortgaged.
Gas is under $2.00, food and ammunition prices are dropping so it's not all
gloom and doom.

They say here there are a run on AR's, you can't find a Bushmaster is
the state.
Ammos gone up a bit, some times it's better to shop on-line or hit the
gun show.

I plan on getting down your way in a few weeks to see my old
yacht, its new owner and sniff around for another fine addition to the
fleet.

Lots of boats to be had here, bring an empty trailor. If you need any
assistance let me know.

I hope you are getting a new RedCloud II going, it's people like you that
make America great - independent, self reliant people that never give up on
their vision.

Well shucks, you're making me blush Gilligan. No RedCloud II but we
are working towards the next coffee boat.

Joe



Adm. Momsen

On Nov 23, 4:34*pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:
"Charles Momsen" wrote in message

...







"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
tanews.com...

"Charles Momsen" wrote in message
...

"Joe" wrote in message
....
On Nov 22, 10:16 am, "Charles Momsen" wrote:
Story he

http://www.king5.com/localnews/stori...nomy_abandoned....

Hey Gilligan hope all is well in Colorado,

Here there are over 300 boats abandoned on the lake .

http://www.galvnews.com/story.lasso?...84&-session=Th...

The EL Lago Marina was one of the worst wiped out, sadly Silvers wife
could not handle the pressure.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?se...cal&id=6517696

Joe

Hi Joe,

Things are pretty good here for the most part. No real big unemployment
problems since most of those who lost their jobs went back to Mexico. A
good number of foreclosures on houses but the small investor is locked
out because lenders have a limit on the number of houses you can have
mortgaged. Gas is under $2.00, food and ammunition prices are dropping
so it's not all gloom and doom. I plan on getting down your way in a few
weeks to see my old yacht, its new owner and sniff around for another
fine addition to the fleet.

I hope you are getting a new RedCloud II going, it's people like you
that make America great - independent, self reliant people that never
give up on their vision.

Partially true but a vision will not be realized without hard work and
competent action. Although Joe has demonstrated he does not fear hard
work it is the competence angle upon which he has yet to get a firm grip.

Wilbur Hubbard

Right you are Wilbur and there's also luck, both good and bad. I believe
Joe has all it takes and more to be successful.

Perhaps, but only time will tell.

What concerns me is he's too full of pride. I have yet to read where he
admits he screwed up royally in losing Red Cloud unnecessarily. I fear that
until and unless he steps back and takes a realistic appraisal of the whys
and wherefores he's doomed to continue his "bad luck." Part of being a man
is to admit one's mistakes and not continue to always blame them on fate or
bad luck. *Until one can admit a mistake one will never be able to correct a
mistake or forestall the same thing happening in the future.

Wilbur Hubbard- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What concerns me is how you ended chained to chicken bone reef ?
Until you untie that mooring line and cast off Neal, your advice you
so freely spew, will not merit nor warrent attention.
You a good about talking (typing) about sailing, but thats not what
it's about.

Joe

On Nov 23, 4:34*pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:
"Charles Momsen" wrote in message

...







"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
tanews.com...

"Charles Momsen" wrote in message
...

"Joe" wrote in message
....
On Nov 22, 10:16 am, "Charles Momsen" wrote:
Story he

http://www.king5.com/localnews/stori...nomy_abandoned....

Hey Gilligan hope all is well in Colorado,

Here there are over 300 boats abandoned on the lake .

http://www.galvnews.com/story.lasso?...84&-session=Th...

The EL Lago Marina was one of the worst wiped out, sadly Silvers wife
could not handle the pressure.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?se...cal&id=6517696

Joe

Hi Joe,

Things are pretty good here for the most part. No real big unemployment
problems since most of those who lost their jobs went back to Mexico. A
good number of foreclosures on houses but the small investor is locked
out because lenders have a limit on the number of houses you can have
mortgaged. Gas is under $2.00, food and ammunition prices are dropping
so it's not all gloom and doom. I plan on getting down your way in a few
weeks to see my old yacht, its new owner and sniff around for another
fine addition to the fleet.

I hope you are getting a new RedCloud II going, it's people like you
that make America great - independent, self reliant people that never
give up on their vision.

Partially true but a vision will not be realized without hard work and
competent action. Although Joe has demonstrated he does not fear hard
work it is the competence angle upon which he has yet to get a firm grip.

Wilbur Hubbard

Right you are Wilbur and there's also luck, both good and bad. I believe
Joe has all it takes and more to be successful.

Perhaps, but only time will tell.

What concerns me is he's too full of pride. I have yet to read where he
admits he screwed up royally in losing Red Cloud unnecessarily. I fear that
until and unless he steps back and takes a realistic appraisal of the whys
and wherefores he's doomed to continue his "bad luck." Part of being a man
is to admit one's mistakes and not continue to always blame them on fate or
bad luck. *Until one can admit a mistake one will never be able to correct a
mistake or forestall the same thing happening in the future.

Wilbur Hubbard- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Again, Why are you still chained to Chicken bone reef?

Joe

"Joe" wrote in message
...
On Nov 23, 4:34 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:
big snip

| Again, Why are you still chained to Chicken bone reef?
|
| Joe


You just demonstrated my point, Joe. Instead of being rational you resorted
to your usual, ad hominem attack to avoid the issue. Not the most adult of
things to do.

The fact that the topic's such a sore spot with you certainly should clue
you in that there's at least a kernel of truth in what I say. Moreover, no
matter what careless, self-serving assumptions you care to make about me,
they have little bearing on the fact that you really DO need to re-evaluate
yourself and your choices honestly if you wish to increase your chances of
success next time around.

Wilbur Hubbard