Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Resins, Fillers and glues
All of this is probably well known to most ppl here but is new to me.
In making my two Mini-Cups, I have experimented with various glues. I just cannot resist the temptation to do somethign a different way. So, here is my opinion. Gorilla Glue: fairly easy to use requiring no mixing. It has less strength than epoxy and as been stated by others, no ability to bridge gaps with any holding ability. It really needs a tight fit. West Epoxy: Convenient with the little pumps for mixing, holds really well and bridges gaps. Very expensive and no matter how much of the colloidal thickener I use, it sags and starts to run before it sets. MarineTex: Another epoxy formulation I think. This stuff I like most of all because it bridges gaps, holds like hell and does not run. Very expensive. Bondo: As reccomended by the Mini-Cup plans. Seems to have little strength and I wouldnt rely on it as a glue. It does fill gaps really well (no strength though) without running. It sets VERY fast. Fairly cheap. Conventional Fibreglas resin (the stuff that stinks): Not too bad to work with, not sure of its abilities as a glue, havent tried it as a filler, reasonably inexpensive |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Resins, Fillers and glues
Parallax ) writes:
All of this is probably well known to most ppl here but is new to me. In making my two Mini-Cups, I have experimented with various glues. I just cannot resist the temptation to do somethign a different way. So, here is my opinion. I did some research at the public library and in this newsgroup before building my first small plywood boat in 1999. Any home repair book at the public library will have a section on adhesives although they don't deal specifically with boats. At that time I used screws and urea formaldehyde adhesive, a water resistent plastic resin first used in the 1930's on plywood motor torpedo boats and plywood airplanes in the war and still used in the manufacture of plywood, predating epoxide resins (I used a local Canadian brand but its sold in the USA as Weldwood dry powder marine glue) Not gap filling on its own but sold in a compound suitable for plywood lamiating, and needs 70 deg temp and clamping or screwing for 8 hrs to cure. My avoidance of epoxy caused a lot of noise among epoxy promoters on this newsgroup, which like what kind of plywood to use on a boat, is a constant source of mixed opinion, mostly because not all boats are the same and therefore do not have the same materials requirements. Gorilla Glue: fairly easy to use requiring no mixing. It has less strength than epoxy and as been stated by others, no ability to bridge gaps with any holding ability. It really needs a tight fit. I've used Bulldog brand's PL Premuim, their "strongest" polyurehtane construction adhesive. Comes in a tube. Squeeze out with a caulking gun and spread with a putty knife. As you noted these glues stick to the hands for days. I've used it on two small plywood boats along with screws, then sealed the seams with small amounts unreinforced polyester or epoxy resin painted over, for abraision resistence and to keep water away from the PL Premuim. I don't use it to seal the edges of plywood, preferring polyester or epxoy for that. West Epoxy: Convenient with the little pumps for mixing, holds really well and bridges gaps. Very expensive and no matter how much of the colloidal thickener I use, it sags and starts to run before it sets. Every couple of years I buy a $5 bubble pack of two small toothpaste tubes of household epxoy adhesive (tube of resin, tube of hardener, mix in equal amounts) at the discount store (Elmer brand) for repairs around the house and boats, also for sealing edges of boat plywood, and for small rust spots on the car. MarineTex: Another epoxy formulation I think. This stuff I like most of all because it bridges gaps, holds like hell and does not run. Very expensive. Bondo: As reccomended by the Mini-Cup plans. Seems to have little strength and I wouldnt rely on it as a glue. It does fill gaps really well (no strength though) without running. It sets VERY fast. Fairly cheap. Conventional Fibreglas resin (the stuff that stinks): Not too bad to work with, not sure of its abilities as a glue, havent tried it as a filler, reasonably inexpensive Bondo and "conventional fibreglass" are both polyester resin. Polyester occurs in many places, in fabric (eg Dacron/Tyrelene sail cloth) and as tire cords. there is even a polyester drapery tape you can buy at fabric stores which I and a few others have tried instead of fibreglass cloth for unconventional fibreglass taping. Polyester resin adheres like paint and plaster, probably better, but, like paint and plaster, is not good at gluing things together. I sometimes help it adhere by drilling small holes in the surface. Many boatbuilders will say not to use it on wooden boats. I use it on my small wooden boats for abraision resistance and for filling and in one case for taped seam butt joints which are still surprizingly holding, just like I use it on rust repairs on the car. It requires more careful surface prepartion than epoxy resin because epoxy will stick to anything solid except plastic and maybe some other stuff I don't know about. In small quantities polyester is a lot cheaper than epxoy. In larger quantities polyester is still cheaper, not as much on a percentage basis but then with large quatities we are talking large amounts of money so in abolute terms it is still a lot cheaper. On large boats the difference as a percentage of the total cost of the boat is not so great. That is because small boats are mostly hull but big boat hulls are just containers for a lot of expensive accomodations, electronics, sails, motors, artwork and other stuff on which silly buggers waste money. Most of my repair and pathing work is so small its not cost but amount needed which determines whether I use polyester or epoxy. The least amount of polyester I mix is 1/2 teaspoon because that uses 1 drop of hardener. So if I need less than that to seal a spot on a boat I'll mix a drop or two of epoxy instead of miximg more polyester than I need. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Resins, Fillers and glues
Epoxy is not THAT expensive. It used to be... but in recent years, it has
got cheaper in comparison to other glues. Collodial is only one of many "thickeners" for epoxy... and probably the worst for making a "non sag" mix It will take you as near as dammit the same time to build something whatever glue you use. How much money will be SAVED for each project if you use cheaper glue? Divide that by hours building time.. Last time i worked this out for a specific job.. I could have used flour and water for glue... and still only save 21 pence an hour. I value my time and effort sufficiently to spend 21p an hour enabling the product to last more than 12 months! "Parallax" wrote in message om... All of this is probably well known to most ppl here but is new to me. In making my two Mini-Cups, I have experimented with various glues. I just cannot resist the temptation to do somethign a different way. So, here is my opinion. Gorilla Glue: fairly easy to use requiring no mixing. It has less strength than epoxy and as been stated by others, no ability to bridge gaps with any holding ability. It really needs a tight fit. West Epoxy: Convenient with the little pumps for mixing, holds really well and bridges gaps. Very expensive and no matter how much of the colloidal thickener I use, it sags and starts to run before it sets. MarineTex: Another epoxy formulation I think. This stuff I like most of all because it bridges gaps, holds like hell and does not run. Very expensive. Bondo: As reccomended by the Mini-Cup plans. Seems to have little strength and I wouldnt rely on it as a glue. It does fill gaps really well (no strength though) without running. It sets VERY fast. Fairly cheap. Conventional Fibreglas resin (the stuff that stinks): Not too bad to work with, not sure of its abilities as a glue, havent tried it as a filler, reasonably inexpensive |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Resins, Fillers and glues
Everyone on this NG is aware of the typical adhesives, but I would like to
alert those who may not be familiar with the 3M 5200 product. This is the ultimate adhesive and not necessarily just where flexibility is required. This stuff is incredibly strong. It is next to impossible to separate a glued joint with 5200 without destoying one of both of the components. It adheres to everything I've tried steel, aluminum, plastic and wood of all kinds. It is waterproof and works through huge temperature change unlike many adhesives. The dissadvantages are cost, shelf life and long curing time. As a not, do not use as a sealer, it may work sometimes in that department, but it is primarily an adhesive. Steve "Parallax" wrote in message om... All of this is probably well known to most ppl here but is new to me. In making my two Mini-Cups, I have experimented with various glues. I just cannot resist the temptation to do somethign a different way. So, here is my opinion. Gorilla Glue: fairly easy to use requiring no mixing. It has less strength than epoxy and as been stated by others, no ability to bridge gaps with any holding ability. It really needs a tight fit. West Epoxy: Convenient with the little pumps for mixing, holds really well and bridges gaps. Very expensive and no matter how much of the colloidal thickener I use, it sags and starts to run before it sets. MarineTex: Another epoxy formulation I think. This stuff I like most of all because it bridges gaps, holds like hell and does not run. Very expensive. Bondo: As reccomended by the Mini-Cup plans. Seems to have little strength and I wouldnt rely on it as a glue. It does fill gaps really well (no strength though) without running. It sets VERY fast. Fairly cheap. Conventional Fibreglas resin (the stuff that stinks): Not too bad to work with, not sure of its abilities as a glue, havent tried it as a filler, reasonably inexpensive |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Resins, Fillers and glues
"Steve Lusardi" writes: Everyone on this NG is aware of the typical adhesives, but I would like to alert those who may not be familiar with the 3M 5200 product. This is the ultimate adhesive and not necessarily just where flexibility is required. This stuff is incredibly strong. It is next to impossible to separate a glued joint with 5200 without destoying one of both of the components. It adheres to everything I've tried steel, aluminum, plastic and wood of all kinds. It is waterproof and works through huge temperature change unlike many adhesives. The dissadvantages are cost, shelf life and long curing time. As a not, do not use as a sealer, it may work sometimes in that department, but it is primarily an adhesive. 5200 will NOT bond to copper and does not resist diesel. None of the urethane adhesives will bond to copper and only SikaFlex 291 can be used for diesel. The above straight from application engineering for both 3M and Sika. As far as glues, etc are concerned, consider the following: Resorcinol is required for white oak. Epoxy is the glue of choice for everything else. After that, it's all down hill. If the cost of epoxy is too big a nut for you to handle, maybe you should look for another hobby. -- Lew S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland) Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Resins, Fillers and glues
Although 5200 is a great product, and even seals tighter when wet, I do not
believe it sticks very well to UHMW either. And for those interested in 5200, note that 3M also makes a faster curing version (like 1 week instead of 2). I think it's something like 4200? Can't remember... I only use 5200 for sealing things that won't be coming off again (hopefully). Officially, it is an adhesive caulk, not an adhesive. -- http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass -- My 22' Tolman Skiff project http://www.advantagecomposites.com/catalog -- Discounted System Three Resins products .. "Lew Hodgett" wrote in message ink.net... "Steve Lusardi" writes: Everyone on this NG is aware of the typical adhesives, but I would like to alert those who may not be familiar with the 3M 5200 product. This is the ultimate adhesive and not necessarily just where flexibility is required. This stuff is incredibly strong. It is next to impossible to separate a glued joint with 5200 without destoying one of both of the components. It adheres to everything I've tried steel, aluminum, plastic and wood of all kinds. It is waterproof and works through huge temperature change unlike many adhesives. The dissadvantages are cost, shelf life and long curing time. As a not, do not use as a sealer, it may work sometimes in that department, but it is primarily an adhesive. 5200 will NOT bond to copper and does not resist diesel. None of the urethane adhesives will bond to copper and only SikaFlex 291 can be used for diesel. The above straight from application engineering for both 3M and Sika. As far as glues, etc are concerned, consider the following: Resorcinol is required for white oak. Epoxy is the glue of choice for everything else. After that, it's all down hill. If the cost of epoxy is too big a nut for you to handle, maybe you should look for another hobby. -- Lew S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland) Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Resins, Fillers and glues
"Parallax" wrote in message
om... All of this is probably well known to most ppl here but is new to me. In making my two Mini-Cups, I have experimented with various glues. I just cannot resist the temptation to do somethign a different way. So, here is my opinion. Gorilla Glue: fairly easy to use requiring no mixing. It has less strength than epoxy and as been stated by others, no ability to bridge gaps with any holding ability. It really needs a tight fit. Stay away from anything like these PU glues. To make a good bond, you need a clamping force you will never be able to apply on a boat. 60-80 psi is quite difficult to apply over a long seam. West Epoxy: Convenient with the little pumps for mixing, holds really well and bridges gaps. Very expensive and no matter how much of the colloidal thickener I use, it sags and starts to run before it sets. You are using the wrong filler here. For gap filling use microfibres. And epoxy is not that expensive. It is only a part of the total buiding cost. Conventional Fibreglas resin (the stuff that stinks): Not too bad to work with, not sure of its abilities as a glue, havent tried it as a filler, reasonably inexpensive You're talking about polyester here. Stay away from it for glueing. Seriously, do yourself a favour and use epoxy. Once you get the hang of it in using the pumps, stirring it properly and adding the right amount of filler, you'll never want to use something else. Meindert |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Resins, Fillers and glues
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
ink.net... Resorcinol is required for white oak. But requires a tight fit and high clamping force. Epoxy will do as long as you sand the oak with grit 60 across the grain to provide enough 'bite' for the epoxy. Epoxy is the glue of choice for everything else. Yep. Meindert |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Resins, Fillers and glues
I can't translate products to USA brands, but I've used epoxy and urethanes-
and I feel urethane has a place in boats. Not saying hulls or wet areas, but there are plenty of other parts which have moderate strength requirements, need to be moisture resistant, and are subject to some movement. Urethane in a cartridge is convenient, gap filling, possibly dearer than equivalent volume of epoxy, easy to remove the squeeze-out. Easy clean-up ( except for the brown marks on my hands when I decide I won't bother to wear the disposable gloves ..... ). For example, my new engine cover was ply glued up with AV515 urethane. It didn't need the strength of epoxy, and it was easier to clean up the squeeze-out than epoxy. It's horses for courses. David "Lew Hodgett" wrote in message ink.net... "Steve Lusardi" writes: Everyone on this NG is aware of the typical adhesives, but I would like to alert those who may not be familiar with the 3M 5200 product. This is the ultimate adhesive and not necessarily just where flexibility is required. This stuff is incredibly strong. It is next to impossible to separate a glued joint with 5200 without destoying one of both of the components. It adheres to everything I've tried steel, aluminum, plastic and wood of all kinds. It is waterproof and works through huge temperature change unlike many adhesives. The dissadvantages are cost, shelf life and long curing time. As a not, do not use as a sealer, it may work sometimes in that department, but it is primarily an adhesive. 5200 will NOT bond to copper and does not resist diesel. None of the urethane adhesives will bond to copper and only SikaFlex 291 can be used for diesel. The above straight from application engineering for both 3M and Sika. As far as glues, etc are concerned, consider the following: Resorcinol is required for white oak. Epoxy is the glue of choice for everything else. After that, it's all down hill. If the cost of epoxy is too big a nut for you to handle, maybe you should look for another hobby. -- Lew S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland) Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Resins, Fillers and glues
"Meindert Sprang" ) writes:
Stay away from anything like these PU glues. To make a good bond, you need a clamping force you will never be able to apply on a boat. 60-80 psi is quite difficult to apply over a long seam. could you say where this clamping pressure information comes from? there is nothing about it in the PL Premium directions. this house construction mastic form of the adhesive is supposed to work on materials which are nailed together and for attaching sheets of foam with just a few nails to hold it in place until the glue cures. I've used it on small glue-ups with only the weight of a brick to hold the pieces together until it cures. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|