jeslawrence wrote:
Id like to learn more about how, and where that is done... couldnt find
anything in a number of kayaking sources on the web, so would appreciate any
clues!..

Not that /I/ make a habit of it, but capsizing deliberately and rolling up
in the wake of a wave is a recognised method in modern boats.

I know it's a valid tactic because my friendly neighbourhood coach (a
very experienced sea, river and surf paddler) has mentioned it as one
when we've been talking about negotiating surf in sea boats to get
either in or out of surf beaches. But this is the sort of stuff that's
a bit Grown Up for me!

ICBW, but I think the "where" is a wave big enough to have a good chance
of taking you out if you try and go through/over it, I guess something
with looping potential. Not tried it myself, I'm told that you need to
put a roll in on one side rather than the other to get a proper boost
from the wave.

Sorry not to be more help. I imagine it's at the sort of level where a
hoow-to on a web page is pretty much moot, so I'd talk directly with
advanced sea paddlers who have to cope with big surf for more details.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

many thanks... (youre not by any chance related to Nick Clinch, climber?)
Im digging for evidence, and will come back if I find any... J

"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
jeslawrence wrote:
Id like to learn more about how, and where that is done... couldnt find
anything in a number of kayaking sources on the web, so would appreciate
any clues!..

Not that /I/ make a habit of it, but capsizing deliberately and rolling
up in the wake of a wave is a recognised method in modern boats.

I know it's a valid tactic because my friendly neighbourhood coach (a very
experienced sea, river and surf paddler) has mentioned it as one when
we've been talking about negotiating surf in sea boats to get either in or
out of surf beaches. But this is the sort of stuff that's a bit Grown Up
for me!

ICBW, but I think the "where" is a wave big enough to have a good chance
of taking you out if you try and go through/over it, I guess something
with looping potential. Not tried it myself, I'm told that you need to
put a roll in on one side rather than the other to get a proper boost from
the wave.

Sorry not to be more help. I imagine it's at the sort of level where a
hoow-to on a web page is pretty much moot, so I'd talk directly with
advanced sea paddlers who have to cope with big surf for more details.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

jeslawrence wrote:
many thanks... (youre not by any chance related to Nick Clinch, climber?)

Not that I'm aware of...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch wrote in
:

jeslawrence wrote:
Id like to learn more about how, and where that is done... couldnt
find anything in a number of kayaking sources on the web, so would
appreciate any clues!..

Not that /I/ make a habit of it, but capsizing deliberately and
rolling up in the wake of a wave is a recognised method in modern
boats.

I know it's a valid tactic because my friendly neighbourhood coach (a
very experienced sea, river and surf paddler) has mentioned it as one
when we've been talking about negotiating surf in sea boats to get
either in or out of surf beaches. But this is the sort of stuff
that's a bit Grown Up for me!

ICBW, but I think the "where" is a wave big enough to have a good
chance of taking you out if you try and go through/over it, I guess
something with looping potential. Not tried it myself, I'm told that
you need to put a roll in on one side rather than the other to get a
proper boost from the wave.

Er, well, if you lean into the wave, you either won't flip at all, or
you'll flip ugly. It's flipping downstream and it ain't pretty.

Sorry not to be more help. I imagine it's at the sort of level where
a hoow-to on a web page is pretty much moot, so I'd talk directly with
advanced sea paddlers who have to cope with big surf for more details.

It is something you won't learn off a web page, not unless you're
already a pretty good paddler, but you might be able to if you already
had a very solid roll and knew something about surf and current, For
reasons that are unclear to me, sea kayakers seem to regard the roll as
an incredibly advanced technique that you have to build up to for years
and years. In whitewater boating, working on a roll starts right away,
because there just aren't a lot of safe and pleasant places to swim in
whitewater ("swim", in kayak-speak, means to fail to roll and end up out
of your boat). Having a roll makes you a much safer boater, in any kind
of water.

With that said, it takes a while to develop a reliable roll, simply
because rolling practice wears you out. You just can't keep at it that
long; you get tired and you get chilled, and even if the spirit is
willing, the flesh will start stumbling and making mistakes, and there's
not a whole lot of point in just hammering away at it, because you'll
just get worse. And you _do_ want a reliable roll before you venture
into the surf, because it is not a good place to swim.

I've never rolled in surf as a technique of first resort; I've rolled
plenty of times as a "plan b/c/d" thing -- oops, that didn't work, tuck
and duck and over we go to minimize the chundering, wait until the wave
passes and roll up. The preferred technique that I was taught was a
boof, which means heading out into the wave at a slight angle, the
upstream rail up and a strong upstream stroke right before you punch
through the crest. Works like a charm, although you might have to do it
more than once depending on the surf. I've only done that in a
whitewater boat, but it ought to work just as well or better in a
seayak, which is a much faster boat. But you really don't want to do it
without company in the form of a couple of friends who are good paddlers
and who know about surf.

Mary Malmros wrote:

reasons that are unclear to me, sea kayakers seem to regard the roll as
an incredibly advanced technique that you have to build up to for years
and years.

They do? Not true of the ones I know, and I'm in an active and
reasonably large SK club.

In whitewater boating, working on a roll starts right away

As it does for sea kayaking, IME.

just get worse. And you _do_ want a reliable roll before you venture
into the surf, because it is not a good place to swim.

I actually got my "roll in anger" greatly improved in /moderate/
surf. For a relative beginner it's more a case of when, rather
than if, you go over, and so you get quite a bit of practise of
doing it for real. Moderate surf on a sandy beach away from nasty
rips is, IMHO, quite a good place to get better at unplanned "real"
rolls, and you get some fun riding the waves into the bargain.

For the sort of surf you'd be going through because you've no
realistic choice, the above "not good" is completely right though.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch wrote in
:

Mary Malmros wrote:

reasons that are unclear to me, sea kayakers seem to regard the roll
as an incredibly advanced technique that you have to build up to for
years and years.

They do? Not true of the ones I know, and I'm in an active and
reasonably large SK club.

True of almost the ones I know. I did some sea kayaking with a couple of
different groups in the Boston area. Could be they were just
exceptionally timid, although I think it was something besides timidity
going on. They had a sort of...elitism? credentialism? It was like
some of the self-appointed "experienced paddlers" didn't like to see
anyone developing a skill they didn't have, or getting better at
something. The result was that this "rolling is very very very hard and
you can maybe start to learn it in a year or two" idea became
conventional "wisdom". I couldn't find any club where they started
noobs on rolling right away.

In whitewater boating, working on a roll starts right away

As it does for sea kayaking, IME.

just get worse. And you _do_ want a reliable roll before you venture
into the surf, because it is not a good place to swim.

I actually got my "roll in anger" greatly improved in /moderate/
surf.

Heh. We call that a "combat roll", and there's nothing like combat to
test it.

For a relative beginner it's more a case of when, rather
than if, you go over,

I'd say for a paddler at any level it s a case of when, not if.
Although an experienced paddler can remain predictably upright in some
situations, when you venture into the realm of the sketchy, that all
goes away.

and so you get quite a bit of practise of
doing it for real. Moderate surf on a sandy beach away from nasty
rips is, IMHO, quite a good place to get better at unplanned "real"
rolls, and you get some fun riding the waves into the bargain.

Yup. My first ocean surf experience was in surf like this. But I'll
tell ya, it's a ton more fun in a whitewater boat! Whee!

For the sort of surf you'd be going through because you've no
realistic choice, the above "not good" is completely right though.

Yeah, but then trip planning comes in...you don't ever want to get
caught on a shore that you aren't sure you can get off. It's that old
outdoors thing about not getting in over your head.

My first outdoors experiences were on the water, learning sailing at the
age of 5. As soon as we could rig and right the boat ourselves, Dad
would let us solo. It hit me then, the realness (for lack of a better
word). I remember being in the middle of a good-sized lake, looking
around and realizing, "I got myself out here; I have to get myself back,
however long it takes." That is a feeling that most people would
probably find extremely unsettling and not at all pleasant, but for me
(and I suspect for many of us) it was...settling? Reassuring? That's
not the right word, but you get the idea. I won't kayak alone, but I do
admit to being addicted to the solo experience in just about any other
outdoor venture.

Mary Malmros wrote:

True of almost the ones I know. I did some sea kayaking with a couple of
different groups in the Boston area. Could be they were just
exceptionally timid, although I think it was something besides timidity
going on. They had a sort of...elitism? credentialism? It was like
some of the self-appointed "experienced paddlers" didn't like to see
anyone developing a skill they didn't have, or getting better at
something.

Culture difference, could be a micro-culture in a club, even (that
one or mine, don't know...). In ours, the most experienced paddler
is bending over backwards to get people to develop more skills and
become coaches themselves. At times he's quite frustrated that
more people aren't pushing harder to be coach level and develop
more skills.

The result was that this "rolling is very very very hard and
you can maybe start to learn it in a year or two" idea became
conventional "wisdom". I couldn't find any club where they started
noobs on rolling right away.

Come to Dundee, welcome to Tayside Sea Kayak Club. First thing new
people have suggested is pool sessions we run where it's very soon
into rolling. Some people are there by the end of session 1, some
take longer. Some of the (much) older members seem to grumble that
training is something that should be picked up on the job as it was
good enough for them etc., but a distinct minority with no general
support in the club beyond themselves.

I'd say for a paddler at any level it s a case of when, not if.

In /moderate/ surf, I'd think there's no reason a really good surf
paddler should expect to go over unless s/he's trying something
silly in the tricks department.

Yup. My first ocean surf experience was in surf like this. But I'll
tell ya, it's a ton more fun in a whitewater boat! Whee!

That's what I got a whitewater boat *for*! ;-) (much easier to find
cheap second hand than a "proper" surf boat)

Yeah, but then trip planning comes in...you don't ever want to get
caught on a shore that you aren't sure you can get off. It's that old
outdoors thing about not getting in over your head.

Nice in theory, but the outdoors isn't predictable to /quite/ that
extent. There are times in any outdoor discipline when you have to
do stuff you really don't want to unless you work ridiculously far
inside your limits. It gives you something to talk ****e about
round the fire the next time...

I won't kayak alone, but I do
admit to being addicted to the solo experience in just about any other
outdoor venture.

I won't go out in the boat alone on anything but very easy water: I
know I'm not good enough. But with more experience the time may come.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

In article ,
Peter Clinch wrote:
Mary Malmros wrote:
reasons that are unclear to me, sea kayakers seem to regard the roll as
beginning sea kayakers
an incredibly advanced technique that you have to build up to for years
and years.

They do? Not true of the ones I know, and I'm in an active and
reasonably large SK club.

Naw, this is the same problem which is in skiing: how do you
characterise, verbally, activity.


In whitewater boating, working on a roll starts right away
As it does for sea kayaking, IME.

Ditto.

just get worse. And you _do_ want a reliable roll before you venture
into the surf, because it is not a good place to swim.

I actually got my "roll in anger" greatly improved in /moderate/
surf. For a relative beginner it's more a case of when, rather

The problem is an economic one:
sea kayak guides like the surf equivalent to Rob Hall and Scott Fisher
want to make a living so they take novices, in some cases who can't even
swim, out. The naive, thinking they can make the skills up, delay
training.

Any exit you can walk away from.....

--

Many sea kayakers can't roll and never thought of learning, because
they don't paddle in waters that are likely to flip them to begin with.
As you know, it's not enough to learn, you have to practice every time
you go out. That's a lot of commitment to prevent a swim that might
happen once a year or less. People who want to go play in the surf
should know how to roll, although even there you could just swim in to
the beach if you needed to. Other than that, knowing how to do a deep
water re-entry is enough for most people.

Steve

Mary Malmros wrote:
For
reasons that are unclear to me, sea kayakers seem to regard the roll as
an incredibly advanced technique that you have to build up to for years
and years. In whitewater boating, working on a roll starts right away,
because there just aren't a lot of safe and pleasant places to swim in
whitewater ... Having a roll makes you a much safer boater, in any kind
of water.

cramersec wrote:
Many sea kayakers can't roll and never thought of learning, because
they don't paddle in waters that are likely to flip them to begin with.
As you know, it's not enough to learn, you have to practice every time
you go out. That's a lot of commitment to prevent a swim that might
happen once a year or less. People who want to go play in the surf
should know how to roll, although even there you could just swim in to
the beach if you needed to. Other than that, knowing how to do a deep
water re-entry is enough for most people.

Talking about playing in the (North Sea) surf, every year we see surfers
and kayakers who go for a swim and who get in trouble due to the strong
currents near the shore. Swimming in to the beach is not always an
option, especially when low tide sets in.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/