Im researching origins of the eskimo roll. Somewhere I heard that the
original (Greenland kayak) roll was longitudinal and not around the
latitudinal axis (i.e. simple capsize and immediate stroke upright with
paddle, harpoon, throwstick, or hands); in a sea that was freezing, a `wet'
exit could be quickly fatal, even if the paddler/hunter could swim which
many of them could not ... dealing - in a slender, unstable skinboat into
which you were stitched - with recalcitrant (often large) prey unwilling to
succumb meant that the hunter had to be athletic and highly maneuverable in
his craft...so what we call a `roll' today was just a simple recovery stroke
accomplished in a rich variety of ways... the original roll (I think) was in
response to the mini-tsunami that occurred when chunks of ice dropped off at
the head of the fjord... one would turn the kayak roughly 45 degrees to the
oncoming wave, capsize just before it hit, then use the wave to flip the
boat more or less longitudinally upright... Im not sure if anyone has ever
done this in today's world (since a 17` kayak is treacherous in shallow
surf, and it is difficult to arrange a mini-tsunami here around our lakes
and rivers), or even if this account is true... does anyone have
ideas/evidence? thanks JESL

jeslawrence wrote:
Im researching origins of the eskimo roll. Somewhere I heard that[...]
this account is true... does anyone have ideas/evidence?

Very fanciful stuff. If you find anything to verify this, I'm sure you'd be the
first.

Mike

jeslawrence schrieb:
Im researching origins of the eskimo roll.
[...]

Hi,

I think all known types of Kayak Rolling are listed he
http://www.greatlakeskayaker.ca/kayakRollingXref.htm

on a wave ;-)
claus lohrberg
--
mail: mail2006[at]neuschwimmer[dot]de
web: http://www.claus-lohrberg.de

....stuff deleted

the original roll (I think) was in
response to the mini-tsunami that occurred when chunks of ice dropped off
at
the head of the fjord... one would turn the kayak roughly 45 degrees to
the
oncoming wave, capsize just before it hit, then use the wave to flip the
boat more or less longitudinally upright... Im not sure if anyone has ever
done this in today's world (since a 17` kayak is treacherous in shallow
surf, and it is difficult to arrange a mini-tsunami here around our lakes
and rivers), or even if this account is true... does anyone have
ideas/evidence? thanks JESL


There is no documentation of any type supporting this premise. Certainly,
these events did happen, but a lot of the kayaking peoples spent much of
their time in waters where this was the norm, not the exception. To suggest
that it was a rare, or uncommon event, is to misunderstand how dynamic the
ice, either coastal or on open water, really is, especially in late spring.

I did read in Sea Kayaker an account of a European observer who reported
that, during surf exits and entries, Greenlanders would often roll their
boats on the face of large waves and recover after the wave passed, but
there was nothing in the report as to how this was executed. Most likely, in
a very narrow boat, it would be quite easy to plant the blade at the bow and
simply perform a hip snap to right the boat as one pulled. Most likely, this
is how most rolls were accomplished. For comfort and touring, few modern
boats are as tippy as this and require more technique to roll upright.

There was a documentary called "Baidarka," several years back where they
took an inuit kayak out to test its performance in real conditions. It was
difficult for most who tried to keep the boat upright when stationary, but
when moving, the tester reported that it was a joy to paddle and handled
wonderfully. This design would not sit well with most modern paddlers who
think that getting wet is not what kayaking is all about (poor confused
beings).

Rick

Rick wrote:

I did read in Sea Kayaker an account of a European observer who reported
that, during surf exits and entries, Greenlanders would often roll their
boats on the face of large waves and recover after the wave passed, but
there was nothing in the report as to how this was executed. Most likely, in
a very narrow boat, it would be quite easy to plant the blade at the bow and
simply perform a hip snap to right the boat as one pulled. Most likely, this
is how most rolls were accomplished. For comfort and touring, few modern
boats are as tippy as this and require more technique to roll upright.

There was a documentary called "Baidarka," several years back where they
took an inuit kayak out to test its performance in real conditions. It was
difficult for most who tried to keep the boat upright when stationary, but
when moving, the tester reported that it was a joy to paddle and handled
wonderfully. This design would not sit well with most modern paddlers who
think that getting wet is not what kayaking is all about (poor confused
beings).

Maybe not with modern sea paddlers, but modern playboaters tend to spend
quite a lot of time in or under water instead of just on it.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

Im researching origins of the eskimo roll. Somewhere I heard that the
original (Greenland kayak) roll was longitudinal and not around the
latitudinal axis

There are some kayak history articles here that might help -
http://www.kayak-escape.com/kayak-articles.htm

HTH
James

Maybe not with modern sea paddlers, but modern playboaters tend to spend
quite a lot of time in or under water instead of just on it.


LOL Well Wilko......someone makes money selling "DRIP RINGS" ....but not on
me or anyone I know.


"Wilko" wrote in message
...
Rick wrote:

I did read in Sea Kayaker an account of a European observer who reported
that, during surf exits and entries, Greenlanders would often roll their
boats on the face of large waves and recover after the wave passed, but
there was nothing in the report as to how this was executed. Most
likely, in
a very narrow boat, it would be quite easy to plant the blade at the bow
and
simply perform a hip snap to right the boat as one pulled. Most likely,
this
is how most rolls were accomplished. For comfort and touring, few modern
boats are as tippy as this and require more technique to roll upright.

There was a documentary called "Baidarka," several years back where they
took an inuit kayak out to test its performance in real conditions. It
was
difficult for most who tried to keep the boat upright when stationary,
but
when moving, the tester reported that it was a joy to paddle and handled
wonderfully. This design would not sit well with most modern paddlers
who
think that getting wet is not what kayaking is all about (poor confused
beings).


--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

Grip wrote:
Wilko wrote:
Maybe not with modern sea paddlers, but modern playboaters tend to spend
quite a lot of time in or under water instead of just on it.


LOL Well Wilko......someone makes money selling "DRIP RINGS" ....but not on
me or anyone I know.

innocent look Hey, I have some of those somewhere! :-)

Seriously though, I'm convinced that I lose more energy from cooling
down because I'm hanging upside-down in the water than from moving my
paddle. Boating comes so easily now that I doubt that takes much energy
nowadays.

We spent last week paddling in Slovenia, and I would be exhausted at the
end of a stretch of river, mostly from cooling down when doing stern
squirts, cartwheels or simply flipping when playing and not so much from
using my muscles so much.


--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

Me too, but it's such a "good" kind of exhautsion. I'de love to boat OOC
"out of country" sometime. I remember how crystal clear the rivers in older
Prijon catalogs were and how beautiful the rivers.....any idea where tose
were shot?


"Wilko" wrote in message
...
Grip wrote:
Wilko wrote:
Maybe not with modern sea paddlers, but modern playboaters tend to
spend
quite a lot of time in or under water instead of just on it.


LOL Well Wilko......someone makes money selling "DRIP RINGS" ....but not
on
me or anyone I know.

innocent look Hey, I have some of those somewhere! :-)

Seriously though, I'm convinced that I lose more energy from cooling
down because I'm hanging upside-down in the water than from moving my
paddle. Boating comes so easily now that I doubt that takes much energy
nowadays.

We spent last week paddling in Slovenia, and I would be exhausted at the
end of a stretch of river, mostly from cooling down when doing stern
squirts, cartwheels or simply flipping when playing and not so much from
using my muscles so much.


--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

....stuff deleted
This design would not sit well with most modern paddlers who think that
getting wet is not what kayaking is all about (poor confused beings).

Maybe not with modern sea paddlers, but modern playboaters tend to spend
quite a lot of time in or under water instead of just on it.


Wilko,

Since the original poster was commenting upon the history of the roll (which
had nothing to do with play boating, since none of the native paddlers even
imagined a design as radical as the modern river kayak), and I am completely
bent (and you can take that any way you wish) in the direction of sea
kayaking. I was taking a jibe at the sea kayaking population, where the
novice/intermediate sea kayaking population is a bit more casual, in both
skill development and boat handling than ww folk. So don't feel my quip was
aimed in your general direction.

Personally, one of my favorite boats to use was the wettest ride I've ever
experienced in a kayak. The early Solstice (current designs) had such a low
volume bow that it tried to dive, and often succeed, under ripples. Waves
swept the deck more often than not, and the boat was at least 1/2 submarine.
It wasn't as popular as such a sweet handling boat should have been because
most sea kayakers didn't seem to understand the joys of being constantly
spalshed with icy water (go figure). I loved the ride, even in rough seas,
though I think it probably should have been equipped with a mask and
snorkel.

Rick
Rick