"muzz" wrote in message
...
Now I'm confused. Doing my two star training we did a lot of edging, both
on
calm water and for getting in and out of different flow rates, you lean
left
you turn left - no problem.
I just watched a Kayaking DVD "Performance Sea Kayaking" in which they
covered edging to turn the boat. They all turned the OPPOSITE way to whci
they edged the boat !
Have I missed something ?

Your responses will probably have confused you somewhat.

Let me try. But I am not a sea kayaker so forgive me if I get it wrong :-)


In a CCK, creek boat, playboat etc, one would normally lift the right knee,
buttock, whatever and edge to turn left with a sweep or rudder stroke. Or to
present the bottom of the boat to the current when ferry gliding river left
to right - facing upstream. (but don't let that confuse you at this stage).

However, in a Sea kayak the edge is the other way around for some reason
that would best be explained by a sea kayaker.

So, if in a creek boat, play boat CCk on flat water or a river, edge (lift a
knee) on the opposite side from your turn. In a sea kayak on the same
side....

Ewan Scott

Ok, thanks for all the replies. I learned edging on the river in a WW boat
and it was always 'lift right cheek turn left'. I should get out in my
touring boat tomorrow and I'll edge the other way. No wonder it was taking
so long to turn. LOL
--
Muzz
http://highlandmist.blogspot.com
http://www.geocities.com/tripdogmonkey/index.html

In message
"muzz" wrote:

Ok, thanks for all the replies. I learned edging on the river in a WW boat
and it was always 'lift right cheek turn left'. I should get out in my
touring boat tomorrow and I'll edge the other way. No wonder it was taking
so long to turn. LOL

As a very rough rule, short boats turn the way they are edged, long boats
the opposite way. There are of course exceptions. Testing has shown that the
boats we generally teach in are about neutral - 3.5 metre general purpose.

What seems to be happening is that edging the boat changes the underwater
shape. With a short playboat, the deck is basically concave, and edging
brings this partly underwater. This produces a shape at water level rather
like a banana, so the reason for the turning is apparent.

With white-water racers, the wings on the hull are probably the dominant
effect. Edging right turns them left. Edging right brings the right-hand
wing into the water, making the right-hand side of the hull more convex than
the left, thus turning left.

At least the last review of the Star syllabus changed "edging the boat to
turn" to "edging the boat to assist turning", which emphasises the other
effect - in most boats, edging them shortens the waterline length, and
increases the effective rocker, making them easier to turn.

--
Alan Adams, from Northamptonshire

http://www.nckc.org.uk/

At least the last review of the Star syllabus changed "edging the boat to
turn" to "edging the boat to assist turning", which emphasises the other
effect - in most boats, edging them shortens the waterline length, and
increases the effective rocker, making them easier to turn.

Alan,

Are you talking about the previous review, or the one being undertaken
currently?

I've heard that there are copies of the new syllabus available but
can't find a copy anywhere.

My son, also an L2, has made several attempts to find out from the BCU
but has never received any response on the subject.

Ewan Scott

In message . com
wrote:



At least the last review of the Star syllabus changed "edging the boat to
turn" to "edging the boat to assist turning", which emphasises the other
effect - in most boats, edging them shortens the waterline length, and
increases the effective rocker, making them easier to turn.

Alan,

Are you talking about the previous review, or the one being undertaken
currently?

The last one, 5 plus years ago.


I've heard that there are copies of the new syllabus available but
can't find a copy anywhere.

My son, also an L2, has made several attempts to find out from the BCU
but has never received any response on the subject.

I haven't heard of anything being made available yet.

Alan

--
Alan Adams, from Northamptonshire

http://www.nckc.org.uk/

Peter Clinch wrote:

"That's a bit too, errr, /wrong/ for my liking. While it's true for
a carved turn, if I try and break into a strong tidal flow in a 5m
sea kayak using that advice then I'll get very, very wet and very,
very fast"

Since when have breaking in and turning been synonymous? Let's be
pedantic then. If you are in a marathon or sprint boat and you are on
placid water, you can make your turn a great deal easier by edging away
from the direction in which you wish to turn. Better?

Dom Murphy wrote:

Since when have breaking in and turning been synonymous?

At the expense of stating the Blindingly Obvious, when one turns as
part of the action of breaking in.

pedantic then. If you are in a marathon or sprint boat and you are on
placid water, you can make your turn a great deal easier by edging away
from the direction in which you wish to turn. Better?

If it's a long carved turn you want to do, but why assume it always is?
If you want to do a very sharp change of direction at the expense
of speed (perhaps to avoid an obstacle) a low brace/telemark turn
leaned to the inside will often be a much more effective way of
going about it.

And while such a maneuver my be unusual in a sprint boat, it
certainly isn't in a sea boat, and they have the waterline length
and hull design to make an outside leaned turn completely viable
and very common /where it is the right way to go about what you
wish to achieve/.

I use both directions of lean extensively in my sea boat, as I've
been taught to. So it just doesn't make any sense to say "you are
in a long boat, you always lean turns to the outside".

You call that pedantry if you like, IMHO saying the above is only
telling half the story and since it isn't hard telling all of it,
why not tell all of it?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

muzz wrote:
Ok, thanks for all the replies. I learned edging on the river in a WW boat
and it was always 'lift right cheek turn left'. I should get out in my
touring boat tomorrow and I'll edge the other way. No wonder it was taking
so long to turn.

There is no sea kayak that will turn on a sixpence. Expect to take time
to get a sea boat all the way around, but if you can edge it it will
take a bit less time than not edging.

You can still use an inside lean turn, and if you want to change the
angle of heading sharply then it's probably more effective. An outside
lean is a carved turn rather than a skidded one, so if you've got the
space for it it takes less power away.

For more effective turns also try an extended grip on the paddle, moving
away from the centre for your hands to give an extended reach to your
sweeps. Some people moan about cranked paddles being no good for this,
but nobody seems to have told mine it can't be used that way...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Ewan Scott wrote:

In a CCK, creek boat, playboat etc, one would normally lift the right knee,
buttock, whatever and edge to turn left with a sweep or rudder stroke. Or to
present the bottom of the boat to the current when ferry gliding river left
to right - facing upstream. (but don't let that confuse you at this stage).

You still do this in a sea kayak. Don't forget that "upstream" still
has a lot of relevant meaning if you're in a tidal stream or surf

Also if you want to do a reasonably sharp stop then an inside leaned
turn will kill the speed very effectively

However, in a Sea kayak the edge is the other way around for some reason
that would best be explained by a sea kayaker.

It's a very different turn. Edging a sea kayak to the outside is for a
carved turn with the shape of the hull making at least part of the
steering effect, but it's a gradual thing where forward motion is part
of the game. I usually use this for slight heading changes or to adjust
degree of weathercocking. Another time an outside lean is useful is if
you suddenly need to go back but are at a good speed with a full load of
gear: it can be quicker to maintain speed and do a long turn than to
kill the speed, turn around, and accelerate again.

So, if in a creek boat, play boat CCk on flat water or a river, edge (lift a
knee) on the opposite side from your turn. In a sea kayak on the same
side....

Lean things to the outside breaking out into a tidal stream and you'll
get an excellent chance to practise your rolling... It isn't a matter
of a different way in a sea kayak, full stop, but the outside lean is an
extra option to turn the boat in a different way. The inside lean turn
is still very much an option and breaking in and out of eddies is the
one to use, just like in a river boat.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/