wrote in message
...


I take kids out on flat water to train 1/2/3 Star. They usually paddle
Whippits or Whiplashes, not long boats, but longer than my old Riot
Glide or Inazone 232. If they make any effort to paddle I can't keep
up with them (different hull shape too).

The Inazone 212 was reccomended to me by the shop that supplies our club
kayaks. Haven't heard anything else about it, but it IS in my price range,
leaving me enough change to buy a spraydeck! What did you think of it?
I've seen reviews that say it's a good beginners boat but will it grow with
me as I get better? Will I be able to run down Welsh rivers as well as play
in the sea here?


When I was learning I used an Odysee (a veritable barge with a keel).
It ran straight and none of the instructors could keep up with me -
forward or reverse paddling.

I've been playing Polo too, and wow do those boats move! I can understand
why, but I've semi-decided I don't like that shape much. I find them hard
to stear!

If you get too small a boat, say, for argument's sake a Sub 6 190 (I
think), you can have great fun playboating, but try river running and
you may find yourself having to utilise rolling skills quite
frequently.

Ah, so playboats are an uh-oh for rivers? Most of the guys in our club seem
to use playboats, but they're all experienced and good!

Something else you might not be aware of. It might not matter to you.
Every boat has a built in maximum speed.

This I'm not too bothered about. I'd rather be able to mess about in it
that get somewhere quickly!

I'd never tell anyone what boat to buy, I'd possibly advise caution
though. I'm fortunate in that our Scout Group has access to a wide
range of boats, and our pool of Coaches means that there are always
different boats around to play with.

Yup, going to attempt to do this Thursday. Unfortunatly most of the members
with their own boats are large men, and most of the club boats are either
RPM's or crappy old ones that are like polo kayaks.

You maybe also want to consider your paddle too...

Paddle I'm not going to attempt yet! I'm happy borrowing bits and pieces of
the clubs kit at the moment, boat and spraydeck are the only things I really
need right now. I'm likeing the Polo paddles though more than the ones I've
been using out in the marina and the sea! Don't really know what the
difference is, they just feel different.

Thanks ever so much for your advice. I'm just asking so many people so many
questions at the moment, but it's the only way to learn!

Charlie


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On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:48:38 +0100, "Charlie"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .


I take kids out on flat water to train 1/2/3 Star. They usually paddle
Whippits or Whiplashes, not long boats, but longer than my old Riot
Glide or Inazone 232. If they make any effort to paddle I can't keep
up with them (different hull shape too).

The Inazone 212 was reccomended to me by the shop that supplies our club
kayaks. Haven't heard anything else about it, but it IS in my price range,
leaving me enough change to buy a spraydeck! What did you think of it?
I've seen reviews that say it's a good beginners boat but will it grow with
me as I get better? Will I be able to run down Welsh rivers as well as play
in the sea here?


212 is a small boat. I'm 5"7 and 12 stone. I'd be uncomfortable in a
212. I manage in a 230 and a 232 but I think a long time in anything
smaller would be a problem. Although I've known a six footer to
manage in a 230 all day. OTOH I've seen a Coach get out of a small
boat he has played in all day and be unable to walk from the pain in
his ankles...

What you can do depends upon your skills and your confidence. Only you
know if you can do it.

snip

If you get too small a boat, say, for argument's sake a Sub 6 190 (I
think), you can have great fun playboating, but try river running and
you may find yourself having to utilise rolling skills quite
frequently.

Ah, so playboats are an uh-oh for rivers? Most of the guys in our club seem
to use playboats, but they're all experienced and good!

not quite what I said :-) You can certainly run rivers in a small
playboat, but you will be prone to flipping and doing inadvertent
maneouvres. Sure is one way to learn though. My son has a Sub 6 but
eschewed it for an Inazone for his 4 Star test.

Ewan Scott
http://101waystocookabeaver.blogspot.com

"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
...

212 is a small boat. I'm 5"7 and 12 stone. I'd be uncomfortable in a
212. I manage in a 230 and a 232 but I think a long time in anything
smaller would be a problem. Although I've known a six footer to
manage in a 230 all day. OTOH I've seen a Coach get out of a small
boat he has played in all day and be unable to walk from the pain in
his ankles...

Ah, but I have the problems the other way - I'm 5ft nothing tall and can't
reach the footrests in most boats!

not quite what I said :-) You can certainly run rivers in a small
playboat, but you will be prone to flipping and doing inadvertent
maneouvres. Sure is one way to learn though. My son has a Sub 6 but
eschewed it for an Inazone for his 4 Star test.


Well, yes, certainly one way to learn! I'm not adverse to falling in, but
I'd like to keep it to a minimum since I can't roll yet! Saying about
falling in though, apparently I'm doing my two star next week (yay for me -
haven't done my one star yet) but out on the Marina where it's all wavy and
crazy! Most of the club have either done it in the pool or on a lake but
I've been told "I'll cope". Hmmmmm.

Charlie.


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not quite what I said :-) You can certainly run rivers in a small
playboat, but you will be prone to flipping and doing inadvertent
maneouvres. Sure is one way to learn though. My son has a Sub 6 but
eschewed it for an Inazone for his 4 Star test.


Well, yes, certainly one way to learn! I'm not adverse to falling in, but
I'd like to keep it to a minimum since I can't roll yet! Saying about
falling in though, apparently I'm doing my two star next week (yay for me -
haven't done my one star yet) but out on the Marina where it's all wavy and
crazy! Most of the club have either done it in the pool or on a lake but
I've been told "I'll cope". Hmmmmm.

Good luck. Piece of advice. Learn to roll as soon as you can. It makes
life a whole lot easier if you can roll when you start taking the boat
all the way over in High Brace and Sculling and HB on the Move.

We did our Three Star and Canoe Safety In February - now just about
any water seems positively warm :-)

Ewan Scott
http://101waystocookabeaver.blogspot.com

"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
...
Good luck. Piece of advice. Learn to roll as soon as you can. It makes
life a whole lot easier if you can roll when you start taking the boat
all the way over in High Brace and Sculling and HB on the Move.

Ha! It's not like I haven't been trying! I just can't seem to get the
oomph to get the boat all the way over. I can get it about half way up then
it falls back down! Maybe something more suited to me will be easier. Good
job I like swimming really...

We did our Three Star and Canoe Safety In February - now just about
any water seems positively warm :-)

Urgh! I really don't like the cold... something I think I will have to get
used to!

Charlie.

Ewan Scott
http://101waystocookabeaver.blogspot.com

beaver? 100 ways to cook it? Interesting!


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On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:55:18 +0100, "Charlie"
wrote:


"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
.. .
Good luck. Piece of advice. Learn to roll as soon as you can. It makes
life a whole lot easier if you can roll when you start taking the boat
all the way over in High Brace and Sculling and HB on the Move.

Ha! It's not like I haven't been trying! I just can't seem to get the
oomph to get the boat all the way over. I can get it about half way up then
it falls back down! Maybe something more suited to me will be easier. Good
job I like swimming really...

I'll lay odds you are being taught to do it on the right hand side of
the boat. Yes?

Find the surface of the water with the paddle, sweep it out and then
draw it down, using a hip flick to finish things off, lying back and
bringing your head up last type of thing? Yes?

Alternate strategy, extend your paddle on the LEFT hand side of the
boat, moving your grip down the shaft as far as you can get - but NOT
going to pelata. Roll upside down, find the surface of the water and
simply yank your right handdown and across your body as hard as you
can. Finishing with a hip flick. If you get it right you will catch
fresh air for about a second and roll over again on the other side. So
prepare with a brace to stop going over again.

Took me months to get the roll and then I tried it on the left and
couldn't believe how simple it was.

Rounder hulls are sometimes easier to roll. Squared hulls tend to roll
in "steps". Just a thought.




http://101waystocookabeaver.blogspot.com

Ewan Scott wrote in message
...
(snipped)


Ha! It's not like I haven't been trying! I just can't seem to get the
oomph to get the boat all the way over. I can get it about half way up
then
it falls back down! Maybe something more suited to me will be easier.
Good
job I like swimming really...

I'll lay odds you are being taught to do it on the right hand side of
the boat. Yes?

Find the surface of the water with the paddle, sweep it out and then
draw it down, using a hip flick to finish things off, lying back and
bringing your head up last type of thing? Yes?

Alternate strategy, extend your paddle on the LEFT hand side of the
boat, moving your grip down the shaft as far as you can get - but NOT
going to pelata. Roll upside down, find the surface of the water and
simply yank your right handdown and across your body as hard as you
can. Finishing with a hip flick. If you get it right you will catch
fresh air for about a second and roll over again on the other side. So
prepare with a brace to stop going over again.

Took me months to get the roll and then I tried it on the left and
couldn't believe how simple it was.

Rounder hulls are sometimes easier to roll. Squared hulls tend to roll
in "steps". Just a thought.

I could never come to terms with the (essential) "hip flick" - if thats an
issue, think about "ramming / lifting / forcing" your knee "thro the deck"
as you progress thro the roll. Following Ewan's advice above, set up with
the paddle on the left, as you start the roll ram your knee hard against the
deck - works for me!

Keep your head down until you're "up".

Personally, I found I learnt to roll with a pawlata and then just keep
shortening the grip until I had a "proper" hand position for a screw/storm
roll. There is a school of thought though that suggests it's best not to
learn this way, as it encourages brute force rather than technique but I
still favour a pawlata as my fail-safe back up when I just *have* to roll.

There is even a suggestion on one of the Australian sea-kayaking sites that
the pawlata should be the roll of choice for sea-paddlers - certainly in
conditions where a failed roll is not an option.

There's some sound advice on rolling to be found in "Kayak Rolling - the
Black Art Demystified " - Collins, L - Pesda Press - ISBN 0-9531956-8-6 -
www.pesdapress.com

Mike.

Thanks for the tips, I have been trying it on both sides and I THINK I
naturally try and do it on my left! I'm going to try and borrow someone
else's boat tomorrow and have a go. As much as everyone says that RPM's are
great, they are defiantly not for me! Just too damn big! Anyway, it's
late, I've just finished work and I'll ramble if I write any more...

Charlie.

"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:55:18 +0100, "Charlie"
wrote:


"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
.. .
Good luck. Piece of advice. Learn to roll as soon as you can. It makes
life a whole lot easier if you can roll when you start taking the boat
all the way over in High Brace and Sculling and HB on the Move.

Ha! It's not like I haven't been trying! I just can't seem to get the
oomph to get the boat all the way over. I can get it about half way up
then
it falls back down! Maybe something more suited to me will be easier.
Good
job I like swimming really...

I'll lay odds you are being taught to do it on the right hand side of
the boat. Yes?

Find the surface of the water with the paddle, sweep it out and then
draw it down, using a hip flick to finish things off, lying back and
bringing your head up last type of thing? Yes?

Alternate strategy, extend your paddle on the LEFT hand side of the
boat, moving your grip down the shaft as far as you can get - but NOT
going to pelata. Roll upside down, find the surface of the water and
simply yank your right handdown and across your body as hard as you
can. Finishing with a hip flick. If you get it right you will catch
fresh air for about a second and roll over again on the other side. So
prepare with a brace to stop going over again.

Took me months to get the roll and then I tried it on the left and
couldn't believe how simple it was.

Rounder hulls are sometimes easier to roll. Squared hulls tend to roll
in "steps". Just a thought.




http://101waystocookabeaver.blogspot.com


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In article ,
Charlie wrote:

"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
...
Good luck. Piece of advice. Learn to roll as soon as you can. It
makes life a whole lot easier if you can roll when you start
taking the boat all the way over in High Brace and Sculling and
HB on the Move.
Ha! It's not like I haven't been trying! I just can't seem to get
the oomph to get the boat all the way over. I can get it about
half way up then it falls back down! Maybe something more suited
to me will be easier. Good job I like swimming really...
If your head comes out of the water and then you roll back down again,
almost certainly you are using the roll action to bring your head out
of the water (too soon) rather than turning the kayak.

The head comes out of the water after the kayak has rotated back past
the vertical. This is where Mike's push with the knee comes in, it
starts the kayak rotating back to the surface. You can help keep your
head in the water by looking at the paddle blade as you sweep it out
to the side of the kayak and roll back up.

The hip flick, or pushing with the knee and keeping your head down can
be learnt by practising eskimo rescues. When you start to do them it
is sometimes really hard to get back up, but if you experiment with
the technique using a hip flick, or knee push to first rotate the
kayak, you suddenly find a way of doing it that is really easy.

[High brace - hasn't this proved to be a good technique for
dislocating a shoulder ?. I don't normally teach a high brace because
of this. Am I wrong ?.]

Bill

--
Dan,Rob,Bill and Celia Oldroyd. We live in Tadcaster, UK.
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/oldieshome/

[High brace - hasn't this proved to be a good technique for
dislocating a shoulder ?. I don't normally teach a high brace because
of this. Am I wrong ?.]

High brace in front quarter to midship area. On the move you need to
brace in the front quarter as the movement of the boat through the
water will sweep the arm back. If you start midship you will end up in
the rear quarter and in a potential dislocation scenario.
But if we don't teach it how do people know how to use it when they
need it...


http://101waystocookabeaver.blogspot.com