Liz wrote:
Hello

I'm new to newsgroups (so hopefully haven't made a pig's ear of it!)

It's refreshing to see someone realise they can post something worth
reading first time round, especially as this group is in need of more
positive input :-)

and new to kayaking. What I'd like to know is as a 35 year old
beginner, are my chances of becoming a great paddler less now than if
I'd started as a child or does age not enter the equation? I know I'm
not old but I seem to be the eldest novice in my local club, lol.

My Dad must have been in his mid 50's when we tricked him into starting
to paddle. He has no ambitions beyond grade 3 but I'm sure there is
plenty of grade 4 he could be running (convincing him to come paddling
with us is more tricky). He is a level 2 coach and spends a lot of time
coaching, fla****er paddling and on easier grade stuff - I would say he
paddles more than me if not as hard! He also likes sea kayaking - which
is a wonderful leveller, endurance being worth more than speed, where
the youngsters can find themselves disadvantaged compared to older
paddlers! I wouldn't class him as a great paddler but he gets absolutely
everything he wants and possibly more out of the sport, and you are 20
odd years younger, so no worries!

Sure the human body deteriorates and as we age we might need to build in
extra exercise (or get out more often on fla****er) to maintain it for
the sport but the governing factor really isn't age, it's enthusiasm and
determination!

Also, as a complete "Humbug" I was wondering if any instructors out
there would be willing to give me lessons over the Christmas break. I
live in Southampton, and am yearning to get out of the pool and onto a
river. I'm trying to boycott Xmas this year and can't think of a
better way to spend it : )

I'm too far away to know specifics for your area, but most paddling in
the UK is done over the winter - people will be running rivers over the
xmas break, although these might be trips for the more experienced.
Obviously there are different ways things can run - there is club style
training for free, and there is commercial training for a price - if you
are interested in the latter I would say get in touch with
kayakojacko.com and see if they will be running anything over the break.
If all else fails I'm sure they will be spending time on the weirs so if
you are at a stage to try playboating that might help.

Most clubs arrange some kind of trip over the xmas/new year period, some
go away for the period, others have a local run they always do - these
things vary in difficulty but there is bound to be someone doing
something at your level from your area. Personally I'll be in the
highlands waiting for a warm, wet spell to make the hard rivers/burns
runnable!

Good luck, there are a lot of fanatical paddlers who would paddle rather
than do xmas if they could get away with it, you just have to track down
ones that can! Which reminds me of a xmas eve spent on the Tees white
water course with my Dad, brother and a friend - at one point 2 other
people appeared....... a nice quiet day out!

JIM

Peter wrote:

It is interesting that you teach pawlata first.... I don't anymore for the
reason that people seem to rely on the leverage, and that turns into brute
force with the screw roll.

Makes sense, as that's what I did... Some people have learned starting
with a float assisted hand roll, which really helps tune the hip flick
first thing. OTOH it can be a bit dispiriting at first as it's harder,
and in my case the last time I tried I put my back out and needed two
visits to the osteopath so I'm not personally that keen on practising that!

OTOH I'm not really clued enough to teach anything else, and will
usually only try to teach when I'm all that's available there and then.
Will try an emphasize a good pawlata with prominent hip flick before
moving onto screws in future though!

Reverse Screw: the thing I did wrong for ages is I was pulling the blade
down in the water, rather than sweeping it out.

Having set up and flipped the boat I just couldn't decide what I was
meant to be doing *at all*. It wasn't doing the wrong thing, just going
"errrrrrrrrr?", resetting for a P and coming up that way instead! Down
rather than Out seems to be a common problem for a lot of people doing
any sweeping roll though, AFAICT from our pool sessions.

roll. I still don't like back deck types of rolls, but they definitely have
their uses.

I was just curious really. Main project now is getting screws on my
"bad side" just as good as the other and at a point where "default roll"
is the best side in any given situation, rather than current right
shoulder forwards side. Also working so that any degree of feather or
different control hands aren't a problem (often paddle unfeathered on
the sea if there's no headwind, if there is I sometimes swap control
side thanks to a variable joint shaft and blades that plug into either
end). Slowly getting there...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"...If you want to travel to south Wales, e.mail me and I'll arrange
for a
few of us (adults only) to go out for the day.

Have fun,
Steve (Amman Valley Paddlers)"



Thanks for the offer Steve. South Wales is a bit further than I was
planning to travel (although it is a beautiful place), but I'll bear
you in mind : ). Where do you paddle? I went out on the Wye in a 2 man
canoe back in September and had a great time. I plan to go on an
abseil day there in February, and hopefully will be able to organize
some kayaking the day before (to make a weekend of it and therefore
justify the travelling!)

Liz.

Richard Seaby wrote in message ...


which club are you with? there are several round Southampton - most will
have some suitable trip going on over Christmas at some point I would
have thought. Many clubs are happy to take 'drop ins' for these sort of
trips if you ask.

The main issue is having suitable kit to keep you warm .

If you haven't paddled outside the pool them you probably don't need
lessons - just a bit of time on the water to sort out going strait - not
as easy as it sounds on a windy river!

Richard



Hello Richard

Good thinking! I'll ask the local clubs if there are any "humbugs" who
would rather paddle than sit in front of the TV watching Christmas
dross : )

I haven't formally joined a club yet but have had a couple of lessons
thanks to Salisbury CC and shall be checking out Ringwood CC tomorrow.
Do you paddle with a local club? Do they accept novices?

I think you may be right about just needing a bit of time on the water
to practice. The pool isn't big enough to get into the swing of it and
learn paddling in a straight line to any degree. The kit issue is a
bit of a problem...oh well, I'll just have to go shopping I suppose
: )

Liz.

Peter Clinch wrote in message ...

"...I'm trying to boycott Xmas this year and can't think of a
better way to spend it : )"



Surfing! ;-)

Pete.



Oh yeah, Xmas surfing would be fun too, although I find it very
difficult and very tiring. Or abseiling down a gorge - fun in a
masochistic sort of way! LOL.

Liz.

Kayaking is great for paraplegics but a word of caution. We had a lass at
the club - game as anything. We weren't at the rolling stage but we went
paddling on the local canal with her in a Kiwi. Had great fun on the weir
- it is safe to shoot at the right levels. We improvised a block and
tackle with safety lines so that she could shoot it four or five times.
Great fun had by all.

The following week she broke her thigh bone when rolling over sunbathing
in her back garden........ Lots of blood lost, ambulances, transfusions
etc. Gave me a pause for thought. They get very osteoporotic because of
not weight bearing on the limbs.

David

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:19:49 +0000, Peter Clinch
wrote:

Peter wrote:

It is interesting that you teach pawlata first.... I don't anymore for the
reason that people seem to rely on the leverage, and that turns into brute
force with the screw roll.

Makes sense, as that's what I did... Some people have learned starting
with a float assisted hand roll, which really helps tune the hip flick
first thing. OTOH it can be a bit dispiriting at first as it's harder,
and in my case the last time I tried I put my back out and needed two
visits to the osteopath so I'm not personally that keen on practising that!

OTOH I'm not really clued enough to teach anything else, and will
usually only try to teach when I'm all that's available there and then.
Will try an emphasize a good pawlata with prominent hip flick before
moving onto screws in future though!

Reverse Screw: the thing I did wrong for ages is I was pulling the blade
down in the water, rather than sweeping it out.

Having set up and flipped the boat I just couldn't decide what I was
meant to be doing *at all*. It wasn't doing the wrong thing, just going
"errrrrrrrrr?", resetting for a P and coming up that way instead! Down
rather than Out seems to be a common problem for a lot of people doing
any sweeping roll though, AFAICT from our pool sessions.

roll. I still don't like back deck types of rolls, but they definitely have
their uses.

I was just curious really. Main project now is getting screws on my
"bad side" just as good as the other and at a point where "default roll"
is the best side in any given situation, rather than current right
shoulder forwards side. Also working so that any degree of feather or
different control hands aren't a problem (often paddle unfeathered on
the sea if there's no headwind, if there is I sometimes swap control
side thanks to a variable joint shaft and blades that plug into either
end). Slowly getting there...

Not quite age related but on the subject of teaching rolls...

There we were, four adult Coaches teaching " Star/ 3 Star to roll. By
chance we had an extra non-paddler in the pool. First time in a kayak.
My son, not then a coach and still only 17 taught this lad to roll in
five minutes. He couldn't paddle in a straight line, but boy could he
roll....

Ewan Scott
http://www.claytonwestscouts.org.uk

On 13 Nov 2003 10:03:07 -0800, (Liz) wrote:

Hello

I'm new to newsgroups (so hopefully haven't made a pig's ear of it!)
and new to kayaking. What I'd like to know is as a 35 year old
beginner, are my chances of becoming a great paddler less now than if
I'd started as a child or does age not enter the equation? I know I'm
not old but I seem to be the eldest novice in my local club, lol.

Also, as a complete "Humbug" I was wondering if any instructors out
there would be willing to give me lessons over the Christmas break. I
live in Southampton, and am yearning to get out of the pool and onto a
river. I'm trying to boycott Xmas this year and can't think of a
better way to spend it : )

So far all the posts have been from those who have seen others do it.

Well I've done it.

I paddled a litle bit when I was at school. A very little bit which
finished with me going over a wier on the Clyde sideways and refusing
to get bak in a kayak/ canoe until I was in my late 30's.


I only really got serious about paddling three years ago, at the age
of 44. I'm now a L2 Coach and working towards 4Star CCK.

Has age made a difference? Yes and No.

I'm a bit stiffer than i used to be, my health is not what it was when
I was younger - both impact on my "fears". If I take a dip in too icy
water it could have a more serious impact upon me now than when I was
20. That does make me a little less committed to new strokes on moving
water - I really don't want to go in - and that is as a result of my
age. However. I coach regularly and am probably a better coach than I
am a paddler, and I see the same fears in most kids. So, maybe age
doesn't matter too much after all.

Go out and do it. You'll find you get better and better the more you
do. There will always be some flash get out there who can do it better
and bigger, just do your own thing and take it where you want to go.

Ewan Scott


http://www.claytonwestscouts.org.uk

There we were, four adult Coaches teaching " Star/ 3 Star to roll. By
chance we had an extra non-paddler in the pool. First time in a kayak.
My son, not then a coach and still only 17 taught this lad to roll in
five minutes. He couldn't paddle in a straight line, but boy could he
roll....

Ewan Scott
http://www.claytonwestscouts.org.uk


That relates to my experiences...
The easiest people to teach rolling to are the ones with no preconception of
what should be happening.

The rest.... I try to take their minds off the rolling by shouting something
bizarre as they capsize.... "think chocolate" seems to work quite well...
they seem to roll up thinking what the hell was the coach on about...
result.

P
--
--
Add "bypass" to subject line to email this address. All others rejected.

I was going to stay out of this as I don't coach anymore, but:

I have found that teaching the screw roll is more effective in the past
because:
It relies on technique, you can't bypass with brute force (well it's a
lot harder to anyway)
You don't need to change your hand position so with ovalled looms you
can feel if the paddle is oriented properly
The need to move hands makes the pawlata a poor choice for river
running and I used to coach specifically towards river running
I always found it just as fast to teach and there is no need to
relearn from pawlata to screw roll (because most people don't use full
techinique with a pawlata)

I have a feeling Peter Clinch is mainly involved with sea kayaking,
where the paddler is usually less vulnerable and can take their time
setting up for a Pawlata, so I didn't feel it necessary to convert him
to the screw roll cause

Guiding the paddle (and making sure the pupil understands that they
shouldn't need to use a lot of force against your support) can be a very
good way to introduce the technique as opposed to brute force, because
you prevent it going down and sweep it out they should get the feel for
the idea that round rather than down is the secret.

As for reverse screw rolling my tips a
Lay back and bring the wrist of your rolling hand to your forehead
with the blade face pointing forward (similar to bow rudder position).
Before you capsize, rotate from your waist towards the side the paddle
is on - chances are you will capsize as you do this.
Once upside down, take a moment and make sure you have rotated as far
as you can in this direction, your head should be turned in the paddle
direction and your cheek will be near the surface
Keep your wrist against your forehead
Sit up in the boat, but keep the paddle on the surface as you do so.
To do this you need to untwist from your waist - the key is to open your
eyes and make sure your cheek is still just below the surface as you do
this - keeping that wrist against your head.
The act of sitting up will both sweep the paddle and give you most of
the hip-flick you require at the right time, you will be sitting
slightly forward at the point where you need to let the wrist wander
from the forehead for the final pull/flick. If you find you need to do
a foreward sweep at this point, do it! A reverse roll with a forward
sweep at the end is still faster and in many cases safer than a forward
roll, anyone that tells you you HAVE to get rid of the forward sweep is
talking out of their backside. Obviously if you can master finishing
fully forward ready to do a power stroke you will get a major advantage
on whitewater, but a safe reliable roll is the most important thing to
worry about.

YES, I will always maintain that reverse screw rolling is safer - anyone
arguing against it does it very differently and probably with less
success. If you reread my tips, you fill find that your head is very
close to the surface and your face is sideways to upwards so very much
less vulnerable than forward. If you lock the wrist against your
forehead, you would have to rip your head off before you could
hyperextend your shoulder and dislocate it.

JIM