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#1
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Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
As it happens I am not a coach.
I used to be a L2 but I let my FA lapse and have never done any of these new fangled update things - because I don't coach anymore. Really should refresh the FA. I was a little surprised at Mike's initial post because I thought he had more respect for the Leny than came out in the post - I still think he does. Our difference of opinion was really over whether it is worth trying to scrape down at stupidly low levels rather than grading it at that level (which probably hasn't come out in my post), I just wouldn't bother to grade it but would still think it's not what someone looking for a grade 1/2 river trip is interested in. I haven't seen the Leny in the summer, but I find low rocky rivers to be physically quite tiring in a way that grade 2 isn't to my way of thinking - that's not to say it would be difficult to find a safe route down them. As for this whole business of throwing qualifications around, I think you're both off the wall with that! The vast majority of coaches are too busy coaching to have enough experience of whitewater for me to pay them any attention when they start trying to tell me about whitewater. That doesn't mean I don't know some good coaches that are also fantastic whitewater paddlers, just that the 2 things don't have to go together. As for Broooz' comment about considering someone of L4 qualification or equal ability is suitable to guide something like the Leny, I totally disagree. L4 is not about river guiding, I know loads of paddlers who could very safely lead/guide on much harder water than the Leny but have nowhere near the coaching abilities of a L4 coach. I just wish everyone was able to spot the significant difference between coaching and river running. Come to think of it every time we do a new river (whether it be in Scotland or abroad) we are guiding ourselves and none of us have the abilities of a L4 coach, if everyone needed a coach in the trip when doing a new river no-ne would ever do anything different! It would make more sense to find someone local to run the river with if you aren't sure of your ability to read it. I'm always uncomfortable with grading discussions as different experience leads to different opinions. As such I don't want to apply grades to the Leny - it doesn't push me like I expect from grade 4, in fact I play on it - I'll point out that the hardest bits are the falls and the S-bend, and that generally speaking it is harder above the falls noting that the S-bend is actually below the falls. I thought recommending it when Ewan used it as an example of what he didn't want to do was odd, I don't consider bumping over ledges and hauling my boat round/over rocks as what a grade 1/2 paddle is all about, even if there is not enough power to make the run a whitewater proposition! Anyway, I think it's time to put the handbags away! You're both starting to look like idiots and I'm concerned that by joining in my reputation is going to get even lower :-) JIM Mike Buckley wrote: Broooz wrote in message news:YAP2b.5107$we2.49008734@news- I am a currently active kayak (inland) coach as well as being a lapsed A4 assessor and I seem to recall Jim being a L3 coach. I assume you are not a L3 coach from your comments here and elsewhere. If you are a L3 coach then you weren't assessed by anyone who was trained in modern assessment techniques. Because a key criteria for passing L3 coach is having the ability to recognise when you might be wrong, learn from others or at least consult with others to check out the validity of your approach. As it happens, I am a coach. |
#2
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Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
"Jim Wallis" wrote in message
news:utsiib.4kj.ln@Eskdale... As for Broooz' comment about considering someone of L4 qualification or equal ability is suitable to guide something like the Leny, I totally disagree. L4 is not about river guiding, I mentioned L4 because the major difference between L3 and L4 is the river leadership element - that is what 5 star is all about. I know loads of paddlers who could very safely lead/guide on much harder water than the Leny but have nowhere near the coaching abilities of a L4 coach. I just wish everyone was able to spot the significant difference between coaching and river running. I agree too. I'm always uncomfortable with grading discussions as different experience leads to different opinions. As such I don't want to apply grades to the Leny Whilst I agree with much of what you say, I know someone who died on the Leny because he missed the breakout above the falls. He was better than a grade 1 or 2 paddler. That is partly why I feel strongly about this one. Anyway, I think it's time to put the handbags away! You're both starting to look like idiots and I'm concerned that by joining in my reputation is going to get even lower :-) Agreed - will try to look after your reputation in future! I didn't have one to start with. |
#3
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Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
Jim Wallis wrote in message news:utsiib.4kj.ln@Eskdale... As it happens I am not a coach. I used to be a L2 but I let my FA lapse and have never done any of these new fangled update things - because I don't coach anymore. Really should refresh the FA. I was a little surprised at Mike's initial post because I thought he had more respect for the Leny than came out in the post - I still think he does. Our difference of opinion was really over whether it is worth trying to scrape down at stupidly low levels rather than grading it at that level (which probably hasn't come out in my post), I just wouldn't bother to grade it but would still think it's not what someone looking for a grade 1/2 river trip is interested in. I haven't seen the Leny in the summer, but I find low rocky rivers to be physically quite tiring in a way that grade 2 isn't to my way of thinking - that's not to say it would be difficult to find a safe route down them. Hmmm - I see where you're coming from - having paddled the river at all levels from "the rocky ditch" to "the foaming, scary cauldron", and over more years than I care to remember, I have to say that it has the potential to give someone a good, safe and enyoyable day at a low level. Falls excepted. As for this whole business of throwing qualifications around, I think you're both off the wall with that! Probably! However, our esteemed paddling colleague and fellow Scouter (once a Scout - always etc) seems to feel its important. It's important to remember that the holding of a "qualification" does not give one the exclusive remit to be the font of all knowlege. FWIW, I used the coaching route purely as a vehicle to allow me to take kids paddling. The vast majority of coaches are too busy coaching to have enough experience of whitewater for me to pay them any attention when they start trying to tell me about whitewater. That doesn't mean I don't know some good coaches that are also fantastic whitewater paddlers, just that the 2 things don't have to go together. Indeed. But I disagree with the generalisation - the role of the coach is not necessarily to be *the better* paddler, but to be able to *help* others to improve. Nick Faldo (something to do with golf I believe) uses a coach to help him improve - but its not the coach who wins the money, is it? The mistake that many people (coaches or not) make is to beleive that their experience / qualifaction / whatever, makes them in some way "qualified" to tell other people what to do. Not the case at all. As for Broooz' comment about considering someone of L4 qualification or equal ability is suitable to guide something like the Leny, I totally disagree. L4 is not about river guiding, I know loads of paddlers who could very safely lead/guide on much harder water than the Leny but have nowhere near the coaching abilities of a L4 coach. I just wish everyone was able to spot the significant difference between coaching and river running. Come to think of it every time we do a new river (whether it be in Scotland or abroad) we are guiding ourselves and none of us have the abilities of a L4 coach, if everyone needed a coach in the trip when doing a new river no-ne would ever do anything different! It would make more sense to find someone local to run the river with if you aren't sure of your ability to read it. Indeed. I'm always uncomfortable with grading discussions as different experience leads to different opinions. As such I don't want to apply grades to the Leny - it doesn't push me like I expect from grade 4, in fact I play on it - I'll point out that the hardest bits are the falls and the S-bend, and that generally speaking it is harder above the falls noting that the S-bend is actually below the falls. This is down to personal preference, experience and apprecaition of the hazards! The Leny is a river I've used with new paddlers (below Falls, naturally) at low levels; have run on my own at medium levels and had seriously scary runs when high. Its given enormnous fun but also nearly drowned a mate. We've lost gear, boats and "years" on it. The "S" has terrified me and also given enormous pleasure to relative beginners. I thought recommending it when Ewan used it as an example of what he didn't want to do was odd, I don't consider bumping over ledges and hauling my boat round/over rocks as what a grade 1/2 paddle is all about, even if there is not enough power to make the run a whitewater proposition! Thats because your view (perhaps) of a good run on a good river might depend on different factors - I view it, when low, as one of the scenic, pleasurable paddles. However, I concur totally with the frustration of ledges, rocks and the like ;-) Anyway, I think it's time to put the handbags away! You're both starting to look like idiots and I'm concerned that by joining in my reputation is going to get even lower :-) You have a reputation? Next you'll be thinking you're paranoid. And who told you that you were paranoid?????? I'm enjoying the debate - as to looking like an idiot, I have no problem with that at all - never being one to take myself so seriously that I have to be right all the time. Context is everything. However, tedium is something else so I think I shall withdraw now and enjoy a nice glass of Jamiesons before my nitetime cocoa. Keep smiling - Mike. |
#4
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Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
Mike Buckley wrote:
You have a reputation? Barely! However, tedium is something else so I think I shall withdraw now and enjoy a nice glass of Jamiesons before my nitetime cocoa. Oh yes that well known single malt Scotch whiskey, mind you Dumfries is probably nearer to Ireland than it is to the real Scotland (how's that for handbag slinging :-)) JIM |
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