Broooz wrote in message
...
"Mike Buckley" wrote in message
...

Thanks - I'll base my advice on my own experience. It doesn't take a
level
IV or V coach to grade the river.

This was the problem. Your assessment of the river is incorrect. As a
result your advice was dangerously flawed. When two experienced coaches
point this out you decide to stick with your own counsel. Sorry Mike, but
I
can't see the sense in that. Why not check your facts by asking a senior
coach that you trust. I am sure you cannot behave like this when leading
your scouts.

Who are these "experienced coaches" and why is their opinion of any more
validity than mine?

Broooz wrote in message
news:YAP2b.5107$we2.49008734@news-
I am a currently active kayak (inland) coach as well as being a lapsed A4
assessor and I seem to recall Jim being a L3 coach. I assume you are not
a
L3 coach from your comments here and elsewhere. If you are a L3 coach
then
you weren't assessed by anyone who was trained in modern assessment
techniques. Because a key criteria for passing L3 coach is having the
ability to recognise when you might be wrong, learn from others or at
least
consult with others to check out the validity of your approach.

As it happens, I am a coach.

As it happens I am not a coach.

I used to be a L2 but I let my FA lapse and have never done any of these
new fangled update things - because I don't coach anymore. Really should
refresh the FA.

I was a little surprised at Mike's initial post because I thought he had
more respect for the Leny than came out in the post - I still think he
does. Our difference of opinion was really over whether it is worth
trying to scrape down at stupidly low levels rather than grading it at
that level (which probably hasn't come out in my post), I just wouldn't
bother to grade it but would still think it's not what someone looking
for a grade 1/2 river trip is interested in. I haven't seen the Leny in
the summer, but I find low rocky rivers to be physically quite tiring in
a way that grade 2 isn't to my way of thinking - that's not to say it
would be difficult to find a safe route down them.

As for this whole business of throwing qualifications around, I think
you're both off the wall with that! The vast majority of coaches are too
busy coaching to have enough experience of whitewater for me to pay them
any attention when they start trying to tell me about whitewater. That
doesn't mean I don't know some good coaches that are also fantastic
whitewater paddlers, just that the 2 things don't have to go together.
As for Broooz' comment about considering someone of L4 qualification or
equal ability is suitable to guide something like the Leny, I totally
disagree. L4 is not about river guiding, I know loads of paddlers who
could very safely lead/guide on much harder water than the Leny but have
nowhere near the coaching abilities of a L4 coach. I just wish everyone
was able to spot the significant difference between coaching and river
running. Come to think of it every time we do a new river (whether it be
in Scotland or abroad) we are guiding ourselves and none of us have the
abilities of a L4 coach, if everyone needed a coach in the trip when
doing a new river no-ne would ever do anything different! It would make
more sense to find someone local to run the river with if you aren't
sure of your ability to read it.

I'm always uncomfortable with grading discussions as different
experience leads to different opinions. As such I don't want to apply
grades to the Leny - it doesn't push me like I expect from grade 4, in
fact I play on it - I'll point out that the hardest bits are the falls
and the S-bend, and that generally speaking it is harder above the falls
noting that the S-bend is actually below the falls. I thought
recommending it when Ewan used it as an example of what he didn't want
to do was odd, I don't consider bumping over ledges and hauling my boat
round/over rocks as what a grade 1/2 paddle is all about, even if there
is not enough power to make the run a whitewater proposition!

Anyway, I think it's time to put the handbags away! You're both starting
to look like idiots and I'm concerned that by joining in my reputation
is going to get even lower :-)

JIM

Mike Buckley wrote:

Broooz wrote in message
news:YAP2b.5107$we2.49008734@news-

I am a currently active kayak (inland) coach as well as being a lapsed A4
assessor and I seem to recall Jim being a L3 coach. I assume you are not

a

L3 coach from your comments here and elsewhere. If you are a L3 coach

then

you weren't assessed by anyone who was trained in modern assessment
techniques. Because a key criteria for passing L3 coach is having the
ability to recognise when you might be wrong, learn from others or at

least

consult with others to check out the validity of your approach.


As it happens, I am a coach.

"Jim Wallis" wrote in message
news:utsiib.4kj.ln@Eskdale...
As for Broooz' comment about considering someone of L4 qualification or
equal ability is suitable to guide something like the Leny, I totally
disagree. L4 is not about river guiding,
I mentioned L4 because the major difference between L3 and L4 is the river
leadership element - that is what 5 star is all about.

I know loads of paddlers who
could very safely lead/guide on much harder water than the Leny but have
nowhere near the coaching abilities of a L4 coach. I just wish everyone
was able to spot the significant difference between coaching and river
running.
I agree too.

I'm always uncomfortable with grading discussions as different
experience leads to different opinions. As such I don't want to apply
grades to the Leny
Whilst I agree with much of what you say, I know someone who died on the
Leny because he missed the breakout above the falls. He was better than a
grade 1 or 2 paddler. That is partly why I feel strongly about this one.

Anyway, I think it's time to put the handbags away! You're both starting
to look like idiots and I'm concerned that by joining in my reputation
is going to get even lower :-)

Agreed - will try to look after your reputation in future! I didn't have
one to start with.

Jim Wallis wrote in message
news:utsiib.4kj.ln@Eskdale...
As it happens I am not a coach.

I used to be a L2 but I let my FA lapse and have never done any of these
new fangled update things - because I don't coach anymore. Really should
refresh the FA.

I was a little surprised at Mike's initial post because I thought he had
more respect for the Leny than came out in the post - I still think he
does. Our difference of opinion was really over whether it is worth
trying to scrape down at stupidly low levels rather than grading it at
that level (which probably hasn't come out in my post), I just wouldn't
bother to grade it but would still think it's not what someone looking
for a grade 1/2 river trip is interested in. I haven't seen the Leny in
the summer, but I find low rocky rivers to be physically quite tiring in
a way that grade 2 isn't to my way of thinking - that's not to say it
would be difficult to find a safe route down them.

Hmmm - I see where you're coming from - having paddled the river at all
levels from "the rocky ditch" to "the foaming, scary cauldron", and over
more years than I care to remember, I have to say that it has the potential
to give someone a good, safe and enyoyable day at a low level. Falls
excepted.

As for this whole business of throwing qualifications around, I think
you're both off the wall with that!

Probably! However, our esteemed paddling colleague and fellow Scouter (once
a Scout - always etc) seems to feel its important. It's important to
remember that the holding of a "qualification" does not give one the
exclusive remit to be the font of all knowlege. FWIW, I used the coaching
route purely as a vehicle to allow me to take kids paddling.

The vast majority of coaches are too
busy coaching to have enough experience of whitewater for me to pay them
any attention when they start trying to tell me about whitewater. That
doesn't mean I don't know some good coaches that are also fantastic
whitewater paddlers, just that the 2 things don't have to go together.

Indeed. But I disagree with the generalisation - the role of the coach is
not necessarily to be *the better* paddler, but to be able to *help* others
to improve. Nick Faldo (something to do with golf I believe) uses a coach to
help him improve - but its not the coach who wins the money, is it? The
mistake that many people (coaches or not) make is to beleive that their
experience / qualifaction / whatever, makes them in some way "qualified" to
tell other people what to do.

Not the case at all.

As for Broooz' comment about considering someone of L4 qualification or
equal ability is suitable to guide something like the Leny, I totally
disagree. L4 is not about river guiding, I know loads of paddlers who
could very safely lead/guide on much harder water than the Leny but have
nowhere near the coaching abilities of a L4 coach. I just wish everyone
was able to spot the significant difference between coaching and river
running. Come to think of it every time we do a new river (whether it be
in Scotland or abroad) we are guiding ourselves and none of us have the
abilities of a L4 coach, if everyone needed a coach in the trip when
doing a new river no-ne would ever do anything different! It would make
more sense to find someone local to run the river with if you aren't
sure of your ability to read it.

Indeed.

I'm always uncomfortable with grading discussions as different
experience leads to different opinions. As such I don't want to apply
grades to the Leny - it doesn't push me like I expect from grade 4, in
fact I play on it - I'll point out that the hardest bits are the falls
and the S-bend, and that generally speaking it is harder above the falls
noting that the S-bend is actually below the falls.

This is down to personal preference, experience and apprecaition of the
hazards! The Leny is a river I've used with new paddlers (below Falls,
naturally) at low levels; have run on my own at medium levels and had
seriously scary runs when high. Its given enormnous fun but also nearly
drowned a mate. We've lost gear, boats and "years" on it. The "S" has
terrified me and also given enormous pleasure to relative beginners.

I thought
recommending it when Ewan used it as an example of what he didn't want
to do was odd, I don't consider bumping over ledges and hauling my boat
round/over rocks as what a grade 1/2 paddle is all about, even if there
is not enough power to make the run a whitewater proposition!

Thats because your view (perhaps) of a good run on a good river might depend
on different factors - I view it, when low, as one of the scenic,
pleasurable paddles. However, I concur totally with the frustration of
ledges, rocks and the like ;-)

Anyway, I think it's time to put the handbags away! You're both starting
to look like idiots and I'm concerned that by joining in my reputation
is going to get even lower :-)

You have a reputation? Next you'll be thinking you're paranoid. And who told
you that you were paranoid??????

I'm enjoying the debate - as to looking like an idiot, I have no problem
with that at all - never being one to take myself so seriously that I have
to be right all the time. Context is everything.

However, tedium is something else so I think I shall withdraw now and enjoy
a nice glass of Jamiesons before my nitetime cocoa.

Keep smiling - Mike.

Mike Buckley wrote:
You have a reputation?

Barely!

However, tedium is something else so I think I shall withdraw now and enjoy
a nice glass of Jamiesons before my nitetime cocoa.

Oh yes that well known single malt Scotch whiskey, mind you Dumfries is
probably nearer to Ireland than it is to the real Scotland (how's that
for handbag slinging :-))

JIM

The reason I don't like to grade it is because someone else will always say "oh but I've run that
and it's not that hard", and then people start paying attention to such
idiots. I prefer to think of it as runnable but hard and dangerous.


Ah. There you have the crux of the difficulty of paddling.

What many more "experienced" paddlers can do in their sleep, others
see as a terrifying, insurmountable challenge. This applies not just
to the Leny, but to deep slow moving water on any river. Throw in the
slightest element of speed, or ledge and many a lower level paddler
panics.

I had a bad experience on the Clyde when I was a lad and I never
paddled again for 18 years. I know now that I should never have been
on the river at that point.

However, I still find higher graded instructors looking to take lower
skilled paddlers on water they shouldn't be on (IMHO). I know of one
paddler with skills not quite as good as he thinks they are, who went
to Tyne Tees with an instructor and spend most of the day swimming. As
far as I am aware it didn't put him off. However, it would have been
an experience that would put many others off. sometimes, at all
levels, we forget that those who are not quite as skilled as
ourselves, may not be up to what we think is easy.

We do need to encourage people to push their envelope, but we need to
be very careful not to draw people into water grades and experiences
that they are not mentally ready for.

Ewan Scott
http://www.claytonwestscouts.org.uk

"Jim Wallis" wrote in message
news:dvgoib.ho4.ln@Eskdale...

I had never heard of that before

Next time you're there, look for the plaque.

"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
...
The reason I don't like to grade it is because someone else will always
say "oh but I've run that
and it's not that hard", and then people start paying attention to such
idiots. I prefer to think of it as runnable but hard and dangerous.


Ah. There you have the crux of the difficulty of paddling.

We do need to encourage people to push their envelope, but we need to
be very careful not to draw people into water grades and experiences
that they are not mentally ready for.

Agreed - that is where the gradings are much more useful than has been
suggested here. Many people have a tendency to downgrade rapids because
they found them easy or because they have only ever paddled it at low levels
(thereby giving an invalid grading). But experienced paddlers will go back
to the original definitions of the gradings and find that actually there is
much less scope for differences of opinion than has been suggested. A good
coach will take such information along with knowledge of the paddler to
produce the desired experience.

snip general consensus

We do need to encourage people to push their envelope, but we need to
be very careful not to draw people into water grades and experiences
that they are not mentally ready for.

Hmmm - I think that has considerable validitiy, but there is a difference
between setting someone up to challenge their ability and knowing that there
is a nice,safe pool to collect the bits in and that there is little
entrapment risk and the situation where a mistake will result in someone
getting a serious fright and /or being put into a position where they are at
real risk.

Again, the good coach will assess this - in much the same way that a Scouter
will assess the degree of risk and challenge a child is ready for.

One of the problems is that the good coach may well not have the depth
of knowledge of the candidates to make that decision. The problem lies
not in the technical dificulty of the water being paddled, but rather
on the understanding of the mental state of the paddler. A paddler may
well be capable of paddling, and we may know that they can safey carry
out a task, but in their mind they have the wrong attitude and they
then could be in danger of failing to complete through lack of
commitment to the action.

I became aware of this when I nearly lost a 2 Star candidate when ,
after a year of paddling and capsizing and many successful attempts at
Eskimo rescues we were doing a capsize and swim to shore. She
hesitated, went over, and we waited for her to pop up beside the
boat... and waited. I was charging towards her when there was a great
sucking sound and a pop and she surfaced gasping for air.

She had gone over, panicked, failed to even try and find the grab on
her spray deck and as it was a tight fit she couldn't just pop it off
by pushing against it.

It turned out that she had always gone through the motions of looking
for the grab but had always been too panicky and had just pushed
herself out of the boat. Now none of us had realised this. We made the
assumption that she was doing it okay and was perfectly happy with the
action. We were wrong. As a result we pressed her to push her envelope
without correctly assesing her state of mind or her ability to
correctly complete the capsize drill - which she had "faked" for over
a year - and had fooled several coaches into thinking she was doing it
right.

We have now changed our approach to this candidate, and also to the
way in which we go through the capsize drill to make sure this does
not happen again.


Ewan Scott
http://www.claytonwestscouts.org.uk