Broooz wrote in message
...
"Mike Buckley" wrote in message
...
Hmmm - I've paddled the Leny many times over many years and NEVER had
any
problems.

I take your point Mike but I think you may well have the experience to
avoid
the difficulties. You also know when it is too high to be safe - the Leny
rises fairly quickly if there is heavy rainfall. But as a river to
recommend to someone who is looking for a grade I or II this must be a
complete no. It is possible to die on the falls if you miss the take out
beforehand. So definitely not for someone on their first trip without an
experienced guide and for me that means at least with the ability if not
the
qualification of level 4 coach.


Hmmm - I wonder if the plot / context isn't being lost here! LBL replied (in
perhaps a less than constructive fashion) to the ACCESS discussion in tones
that could be interpreted as being indicative of there being a problme with
ACCESS on the Leny "at the moment".

Now maybe there is, maybe not. In any case, "paddling" the Leny "without
(access) problems" - which I have - I am not aware of any access problems,
unless things have changed in the last few months - is different to paddling
the Leny and needing to be aware of its inherent risks.

However, in low water, *below* the Falls, I would suggest that any resonably
competent paddler with some moving water experience will have no difficulty
whatsover, normal "rules" regarding commonsense and an appreciation of ones
own ability taken into account of course. It'll be a bumpy scrape, but a
pretty one. The Teith will be a very bumpy scrape but a very pretty one.

Paddling *above* the Falls on the Leny is certainly not something to suggest
to anyone, especially anyone uncertain of their own abilitites and lacking
knowledge of the river. The consequences of getting it wrong above the Falls
are potentially lethal. And in high water that river moves very fast indeed.

For the record, I have paddled the Leny without having an access problem,
but having to deal with a few paddlign problems. Different subject -
different context.

Incidentally, the Nith has adequate water between Drumlandrig and Dumfries
for a gentle and scenic float. The rest of it is a dry ditch and it would
prpbably be easier to walk the gorge than paddle it today!

Mike.

Mike I think you may have missed the context on this one. When I read
LittleBoyLuke's message I read the first 2 lines as referring to the
fact that there is no problem with access in Scotland and the third line
as meaning the Leny is dry. In fact, given the first 2 lines, your
interpretation doesn't make sense to me, but then you probably know I
think a bit weird anyway :-)

Anyway, the original poster said he wasn't wanting to do the Leny so why
are we wasting time discussing it anyway??????

But before I forget, Mike - the S-bend is below the falls, and whilst
not a challenge when the river is dry it is probably the hardest rapid
apart from the falls when the stopper is working. Better make sure you
advise people how to look for it and get on below (it's only about 100
yards past the falls) if you are going to recommend below the falls as a
beginner section!

JIM

Mike Buckley wrote:

Hmmm - I wonder if the plot / context isn't being lost here! LBL replied (in
perhaps a less than constructive fashion) to the ACCESS discussion in tones
that could be interpreted as being indicative of there being a problme with
ACCESS on the Leny "at the moment".

Jim Wallis wrote in message
news:b63rhb.417.ln@Eskdale...
Mike I think you may have missed the context on this one. When I read
LittleBoyLuke's message I read the first 2 lines as referring to the
fact that there is no problem with access in Scotland and the third line
as meaning the Leny is dry. In fact, given the first 2 lines, your
interpretation doesn't make sense to me, but then you probably know I
think a bit weird anyway :-)

No, I dont think I have missed the context. LBL's reply specificlly refers
to "access" issues and he is replying to my post on the subject, specifially
access.

As to his third line, one could safely assume that, in the absence of any
indication to the contrary, he was also refering to access issues especially
as he had not indicated otherwise. So, as there aren't any access issues on
the Leny, the entire thread becomes void.

As to "weirdness" - I couldn't possibly comment, never having met you. One
mans weird is another mans normal is another mans ordinary and as weirdness
is therefore clearly in the mind of the beholder, it would be safe to assume
that if I thought you were weird, then perhaps I could be thought of in the
same vein.

(Incidentally - I have however met the esteemed D W (of photo fame in
another place) - some may say he is weird but I found him charming and
pleasant company!)


Anyway, the original poster said he wasn't wanting to do the Leny so why
are we wasting time discussing it anyway??????

Good point - still, meaningless debate is such fun.

But before I forget, Mike - the S-bend is below the falls, and whilst
not a challenge when the river is dry it is probably the hardest rapid
apart from the falls when the stopper is working. Better make sure you
advise people how to look for it and get on below (it's only about 100
yards past the falls) if you are going to recommend below the falls as a
beginner section!


Thats a very good point. I'm not sure I'm recommending the Leny as a
"beginner section" in fairness - in low water its a river that an
intermediate/improving river paddler can get a lot out of. The S-bend is
clearly visible (and worth inspecting) from the road a few hundred meters
before the car-park at the Falls. On the river, its marked by foaming white
water at high levels and an obvious rock-garden with the main rock clealry
visible river right just below the end of the drop proper.

All that said, I still maintain that its an acceptable run at low levels for
all but the very newest of paddlers. No doubt we can enter into a lenghty
debate about what defines a beginner / new(est) paddler(s).


Mike.

"Mike Buckley" wrote in message
...

All that said, I still maintain that its an acceptable run at low levels
for
all but the very newest of paddlers. No doubt we can enter into a lenghty
debate about what defines a beginner / new(est) paddler(s).

This is where I would strongly argue for exercising caution. If you are
offering advice to someone of unknown standard (or in this case someone who
wanted a grade I or II river) it is dangerous to suggest a grade III plus
river. Instead you should assume the river is virtually a river beginner to
be safe. Arguably you have no legal duty of care in respect of someone
reading this newsgroup but you certainly have a moral duty to look after
their welfare.

To advise anyone in this situation that the Leny is gentle apart from the
falls is liable to lead to an accident if they take your advice.

Broooz

Mike Buckley wrote:

As to "weirdness" - I couldn't possibly comment, never having met you. One
mans weird is another mans normal is another mans ordinary and as weirdness
is therefore clearly in the mind of the beholder, it would be safe to assume
that if I thought you were weird, then perhaps I could be thought of in the
same vein.

Oh come on, even I've noticed that I go off at random tangents with
slightest provocation, or even without any provocation :-)

As for the whole LBL thing (actually the way you and I can split hairs
is fairly weird too) - he hasn't quoted anything and in my newsreader
his post appears to be a reply to the original, not yours. Which just
goes to show what a mess you can get into by replying without quoting or
at least expanding into full sentences that can be read standalone :-)
Lets face it, his post was neither composed, in any way useful, or even
coherent so lets just forget about it!

I should really plan some sea kayaking down on the Solway to meet up
with some of these people I keep corresponding with but have absolutely
no idea who they even are!

JIM

Jim Wallis wrote in message
news:tuvthb.tjf.ln@Eskdale...
Mike Buckley wrote:

As to "weirdness" - I couldn't possibly comment, never having met you.
One
mans weird is another mans normal is another mans ordinary and as
weirdness
is therefore clearly in the mind of the beholder, it would be safe to
assume
that if I thought you were weird, then perhaps I could be thought of in
the
same vein.

Oh come on, even I've noticed that I go off at random tangents with
slightest provocation, or even without any provocation :-)

Random? Tangents? You? - Never!

As for the whole LBL thing (actually the way you and I can split hairs
is fairly weird too) - he hasn't quoted anything and in my newsreader
his post appears to be a reply to the original, not yours. Which just
goes to show what a mess you can get into by replying without quoting or
at least expanding into full sentences that can be read standalone :-)
Lets face it, his post was neither composed, in any way useful, or even
coherent so lets just forget about it!

Ahhhhh - I was begining to think we could return to the "good old days". Oh
well - back to reality. Now then - hair splitting - was that a two way split
or shall we attempt the little achieved 8 way diagonal, cross-hair split?

I should really plan some sea kayaking down on the Solway to meet up
with some of these people I keep corresponding with but have absolutely
no idea who they even are!

Indeed - and had you come on the SCA Solway trip, not only would you have
had a really nice weekend with some great crack, but you'd have met at least
two "net" correspondents over the course of the weekend!

JIM

Mike.

"Mike Buckley" wrote in message
...
I note your opinion. The Teith includes a rapid which forms a recognised
slalom site. Are we therfore to suggest that it also falls outside the
criteria of a run suitble for begineers, in your words, "a gentle river"?

Not suitable for complete beginners but it is clearly grade II so falls
within the original criteria.

You are absolutley right in suggesting that the Leny requires care.
However,
at LOW levels I contend it is far from being anywhere near a "grade III
plus" river below the Falls. I base this informed view on finding a level
3
assessment group on the river some years ago.

That is not an appropriate way of deciding the grading of a river. Several
years ago it was common practice for some assessors to assess on water that
was generally above the required grade with the proviso that the assessment
would be suspended over the higher grade section. Then someone was failed
a LIII assessment on the Orchy and complained that the reason for their
failure was down to their nerves following the running of a section of IV
which was above their experience. That practice was then banned so
assessors should not assess on the III stretch of Leny any more.

Instead of using that method of judging the grading, try looking at the
rapid from the point of view of the gradings definitions and you will see it
is clearly grade III. Alternatively, ask an experienced level IV or V coach
if you don't trust the views of the only coaches to join this thread so far.

However the grading of that particular rapid less critical than the upper
Leny. Your original comment that caused concern from both me and Jim was
the statement "If the Leny is low, its relatively gentle (ex the Falls of
course). " The problem with that is how to judge whether it is low if you
are a grade II paddler you may not appreciate the difference. Secondly, how
to ensure you get off the river before the falls which is a very high risk
situation to put anyone of this experience into. Fortunately, Ewan was not
lulled into a false sense of security and decided against the Leny, but I
can't understand why you suggested it.

Ewan Scott wrote in message
Forgive me for replying to my own post, but it seems the best way of
commenting on the results of my original enquiry.

We were aware of the perils of the Leny, so it really isn't an issue.
We wouldn't do it wet, I've seen it's power, and I've seen it dry so
can see the boulders below waiting to liquidise those without the
ability to stay upright... So No thanks to the leny anyway.

Well within your capabilities. But you made your decision based on your own
knowledge and appreciation of whats there, so I can only commend you on that
;-)

We paddled from the put it at Strathyre down into Loch Lubnaig ( you
can apparently only put in at the campsite if you are camping). The
river trip was v.gentle, but a headwind on Loch Lubnaig made the loch
trip interesting. We surfed back up the lock on our return.
The paddle back up the river was easy with a couple of portages due to
lack of water.

Sounds like you had fun then.

We also paddled Loch Achray and investigated the river towards Loch
Venacher until the midges got too much.

Maybe there should be a "midge factor" included in river/loch guides - - - -

However, we bought the Scottish Whitewater Guide and went on a road
trip to investigate various sections advised. LOL. Grand Tully almost
got us taking a chance at low water. but discretion was the better
part of wisdom. We may have bn okay, but without back up we were
knackered if anything went wrong.

Grantully would have been lots of fun - get it wrong early on and its a
long, bumpy swim to the pool at the bottom though.

We looked at a number of other locations, including the Teith, the
latter being very low, and lthough we could have paled it, it seemed
that we would be spending a lot of time bumping off rocks and it was a
long walk back to the start with only one car available.

Been there - done that! A bike is the answer although hitching can work! Not
well, but it can. Could be the wet-suit that put folk off of course - - - -

At Dumfries we looked at the Caul, really not a lot of water there,
there was enough going through the salom ladder, but evidence of
hidden debris cautioned us against giving it a try without knowing
what was under the surface below the breach. Maybe next time.

Its safe enough - let us know when next you're up and we'll "arrange"
something.

By next Winter we should have our 4 Star and be working towards Level
Three, so maybe we will be better equipped. Thanks anyway.

Best of luck - making good progress by the sound of it.

Ewan Scott
http://www.claytonwestscouts.org.uk

YIS - Mike.

Broooz wrote in message
news:H5S0b.2855$O15.24416276@news-

- - - - try looking at the
rapid from the point of view of the gradings definitions and you will see
it
is clearly grade III.

We'll just go round in circles with this one, clearly. I think I'll stick by
my view. I apprecaite your opinion - while still maintaining that its not a
III in present low water conditions.

Alternatively, ask an experienced level IV or V coach
if you don't trust the views of the only coaches to join this thread so
far.

Thanks - I'll base my advice on my own experience. It doesn't take a level
IV or V coach to grade the river.


However the grading of that particular rapid less critical than the upper
Leny. Your original comment that caused concern from both me and Jim was
the statement "If the Leny is low, its relatively gentle (ex the Falls of
course). " The problem with that is how to judge whether it is low if you
are a grade II paddler you may not appreciate the difference. Secondly,
how
to ensure you get off the river before the falls which is a very high risk
situation to put anyone of this experience into. Fortunately, Ewan was
not
lulled into a false sense of security and decided against the Leny, but I
can't understand why you suggested it.

We've dealt with that. In any event, I would expect anyone paddling an
unknown river, especially one where specific advice has been given with
regard to an area to avoid, to treat it with appropriate respect. Hardly
"lulling anone into a false sense of security" you'll agree.

"Mike Buckley" wrote in message
...

Thanks - I'll base my advice on my own experience. It doesn't take a level
IV or V coach to grade the river.

This was the problem. Your assessment of the river is incorrect. As a
result your advice was dangerously flawed. When two experienced coaches
point this out you decide to stick with your own counsel. Sorry Mike, but I
can't see the sense in that. Why not check your facts by asking a senior
coach that you trust. I am sure you cannot behave like this when leading
your scouts.

We've dealt with that. In any event, I would expect anyone paddling an
unknown river, especially one where specific advice has been given with
regard to an area to avoid, to treat it with appropriate respect. Hardly
"lulling anone into a false sense of security" you'll agree.

Not likely as your presumption implies a greater knowledge than was
reasonable. Now you are saying "treat with appropriate respect" but there
was no hint of that in your original response which is where both Jim and I
started off.