Jim Wallis wrote in message
news:utsiib.4kj.ln@Eskdale...
As it happens I am not a coach.

I used to be a L2 but I let my FA lapse and have never done any of these
new fangled update things - because I don't coach anymore. Really should
refresh the FA.

I was a little surprised at Mike's initial post because I thought he had
more respect for the Leny than came out in the post - I still think he
does. Our difference of opinion was really over whether it is worth
trying to scrape down at stupidly low levels rather than grading it at
that level (which probably hasn't come out in my post), I just wouldn't
bother to grade it but would still think it's not what someone looking
for a grade 1/2 river trip is interested in. I haven't seen the Leny in
the summer, but I find low rocky rivers to be physically quite tiring in
a way that grade 2 isn't to my way of thinking - that's not to say it
would be difficult to find a safe route down them.

Hmmm - I see where you're coming from - having paddled the river at all
levels from "the rocky ditch" to "the foaming, scary cauldron", and over
more years than I care to remember, I have to say that it has the potential
to give someone a good, safe and enyoyable day at a low level. Falls
excepted.

As for this whole business of throwing qualifications around, I think
you're both off the wall with that!

Probably! However, our esteemed paddling colleague and fellow Scouter (once
a Scout - always etc) seems to feel its important. It's important to
remember that the holding of a "qualification" does not give one the
exclusive remit to be the font of all knowlege. FWIW, I used the coaching
route purely as a vehicle to allow me to take kids paddling.

The vast majority of coaches are too
busy coaching to have enough experience of whitewater for me to pay them
any attention when they start trying to tell me about whitewater. That
doesn't mean I don't know some good coaches that are also fantastic
whitewater paddlers, just that the 2 things don't have to go together.

Indeed. But I disagree with the generalisation - the role of the coach is
not necessarily to be *the better* paddler, but to be able to *help* others
to improve. Nick Faldo (something to do with golf I believe) uses a coach to
help him improve - but its not the coach who wins the money, is it? The
mistake that many people (coaches or not) make is to beleive that their
experience / qualifaction / whatever, makes them in some way "qualified" to
tell other people what to do.

Not the case at all.

As for Broooz' comment about considering someone of L4 qualification or
equal ability is suitable to guide something like the Leny, I totally
disagree. L4 is not about river guiding, I know loads of paddlers who
could very safely lead/guide on much harder water than the Leny but have
nowhere near the coaching abilities of a L4 coach. I just wish everyone
was able to spot the significant difference between coaching and river
running. Come to think of it every time we do a new river (whether it be
in Scotland or abroad) we are guiding ourselves and none of us have the
abilities of a L4 coach, if everyone needed a coach in the trip when
doing a new river no-ne would ever do anything different! It would make
more sense to find someone local to run the river with if you aren't
sure of your ability to read it.

Indeed.

I'm always uncomfortable with grading discussions as different
experience leads to different opinions. As such I don't want to apply
grades to the Leny - it doesn't push me like I expect from grade 4, in
fact I play on it - I'll point out that the hardest bits are the falls
and the S-bend, and that generally speaking it is harder above the falls
noting that the S-bend is actually below the falls.

This is down to personal preference, experience and apprecaition of the
hazards! The Leny is a river I've used with new paddlers (below Falls,
naturally) at low levels; have run on my own at medium levels and had
seriously scary runs when high. Its given enormnous fun but also nearly
drowned a mate. We've lost gear, boats and "years" on it. The "S" has
terrified me and also given enormous pleasure to relative beginners.

I thought
recommending it when Ewan used it as an example of what he didn't want
to do was odd, I don't consider bumping over ledges and hauling my boat
round/over rocks as what a grade 1/2 paddle is all about, even if there
is not enough power to make the run a whitewater proposition!

Thats because your view (perhaps) of a good run on a good river might depend
on different factors - I view it, when low, as one of the scenic,
pleasurable paddles. However, I concur totally with the frustration of
ledges, rocks and the like ;-)

Anyway, I think it's time to put the handbags away! You're both starting
to look like idiots and I'm concerned that by joining in my reputation
is going to get even lower :-)

You have a reputation? Next you'll be thinking you're paranoid. And who told
you that you were paranoid??????

I'm enjoying the debate - as to looking like an idiot, I have no problem
with that at all - never being one to take myself so seriously that I have
to be right all the time. Context is everything.

However, tedium is something else so I think I shall withdraw now and enjoy
a nice glass of Jamiesons before my nitetime cocoa.

Keep smiling - Mike.