Truce, fellow paddlers. Classifications of rapids are not the issue.
The question is what kind of boats would give Shrink and his family the
best experience, given whatever water he decides to paddle on. So
Shrink, I think this is the deal: if the rivers you are talking about
are bony and require turns in small areas -- even if they are really
mild rapids -- you will probably be happier in a shorter plastic boat
than a really long glass boat. Who wants to ruin a leisurely run down a
river worrying about cracked gel coat on a sea kayak? And forget
tandems because they are very long and hard to maneuver. If you are less
likely to bang into rocks--e.g., if the rocks are pretty well
covered--you have more leeway in picking a boat. Maybe we can agree on
that much.

Someone along the way mentioned recreational kayaks. I would forget
about them if you want to go out in open water. You need a boat with a
skirt that you can handle in rough water. So if you opt for a shorter
boat, I suggest a shorter touring boat, not a recreational kayak. There
are plenty of touring boats in the 14-15' range.

After that, we will get back to taste. Boats are expensive, so my advice
(I think we will all agree on this too) is to try out boats before you
buy. It's even better if you can find a way to try out some of the local
paddling locations too, because that will give you more of an idea what
kind of paddling is going to be really important for you. Location
makes all the difference. When I lived near DC, I paddled almost only
whitewater and owned only a very old and clunky touring kayak. Now that
I am in Massachusetts, the whitewater boats gather dust, and I bought
myself a great sea kayak. The mix of opportunities is different.

And most important: have a great time.


John Fereira wrote the following on 2/6/2006 7:56 PM:
Steve Cramer wrote in
:

John Fereira wrote:

Dan Koretz wrote

Shrink--

Re class II: that adds another wrinkle. One thing I would not do with
my sea kayak is to run even class 2. The boat turns too slowly, and
for that matter, in rapids, you often have far less than 18' between
rocks.
I'm going to have to disagree here. Class 2, by definition, doesn't
require a great deal of manoevering to avoid obstacles, which
typically means that there is plenty of space between rocks.
You've never paddled WW in the Southeast, have you, John.

I don't know. Is Tennessee in the Southeast?

Within an
hour of where I'm sitting there are literally dozens of rapids that are
far too easy to be considered Class III and are certainly more than
"fast moving water with riffles and small waves," the definition of
Class I. That would make them...you do the math.

Most of the definitions for class II that I have read go something like
this:

Class II- With some basic training the obstacles in this class are easily
maneuvered around or avoided. The swifter currents of water, channels, and
rapids are easily noticed with some forward scouting. Swimmers will probably
not get hurt in these rapids. It rarely occurs that someone may need outside
assistance to rescue them selves.

Our rivers and creeks
tend to be narrow and rocky and require a good deal of maneuvering,
which is easy to do in a WW boat but well beyond the skills of most
touring kayak paddlers.

If your rivers and creeks require a good deal of manoevering then they don't
meet the common definition of class II.
C'mon down and I'll show you.

I've already got potential touring trips in Florida and Vancouver early this
year and a friend of mine is talking about a trip to Georgian Bay. With a 2
1/2 year old at home I don't get too many opportunities to travel unless
it's on business.

Hi Shrink. You are facing what I faced about 6 years ago. I loved my
canoeing, having done several Ontario trips. I studied solo canoeing
at my summer camp for two years and got quite far with it. I highly
enjoy a canoe and what it brings. I also have traveled in a Grumman on
a 7 day trip.

My buddy insisted I try kayaks, and thankfully I had an open mind about
it. I've never turned back. Kayaking offers a different experience
that has many benefits:

- faster travelling means farther tripping per day
- more agile experience in places where shallow or disturbed waters can
be increasingly approached and enjoyed
- introduction to other types of kayaking such as whitewater
- less transport challenges for kayaking, due to smaller boats
- You are much lower to the water and if you are an 'eco' person,
you'll get a kick out of being closer to the waterline

My suggestions:

Go to MEC and rent individual kayaks. They are downtown Halifax. We
used them two summers ago when we kayaked Cape Breton & Peggy's Cove.
Two areas I wouldn't have challenged in a canoe. We saw seals and
sharks. Coastal waterways just ask for kayaks, East and West. There
should be other outfitters in Halifax or NS that you could visit.

Take your tent to a camping site just South of Peggy's Cove, not 7 km
South. It will be on your left side, on the water. Park your tent
directly on the water, and paddle into Peggy's Cove, and further South,
as it gets interesting.

I've not used tandems, but I think that would be a bit limiting. We've
always had our own kayaks. We enjoy racing amongst the rocks at
Tobermory from time to time.

http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=83365166&size=l

Great advice!! Thanks a lot - i'll go check out MEC and see what they have
in stock. I will also check out some of the local rental places to find out
if they are selling any of their singles.


"BeeRich" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi Shrink. You are facing what I faced about 6 years ago. I loved my
canoeing, having done several Ontario trips. I studied solo canoeing
at my summer camp for two years and got quite far with it. I highly
enjoy a canoe and what it brings. I also have traveled in a Grumman on
a 7 day trip.

My buddy insisted I try kayaks, and thankfully I had an open mind about
it. I've never turned back. Kayaking offers a different experience
that has many benefits:

- faster travelling means farther tripping per day
- more agile experience in places where shallow or disturbed waters can
be increasingly approached and enjoyed
- introduction to other types of kayaking such as whitewater
- less transport challenges for kayaking, due to smaller boats
- You are much lower to the water and if you are an 'eco' person,
you'll get a kick out of being closer to the waterline

My suggestions:

Go to MEC and rent individual kayaks. They are downtown Halifax. We
used them two summers ago when we kayaked Cape Breton & Peggy's Cove.
Two areas I wouldn't have challenged in a canoe. We saw seals and
sharks. Coastal waterways just ask for kayaks, East and West. There
should be other outfitters in Halifax or NS that you could visit.

Take your tent to a camping site just South of Peggy's Cove, not 7 km
South. It will be on your left side, on the water. Park your tent
directly on the water, and paddle into Peggy's Cove, and further South,
as it gets interesting.

I've not used tandems, but I think that would be a bit limiting. We've
always had our own kayaks. We enjoy racing amongst the rocks at
Tobermory from time to time.

http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=83365166&size=l

In article ,
"Rick Donnelly" wrote:

"Shrink" wrote in message

...stuff from previous post deleted

Portaging singles isn't terribly difficult. You can take 2 at a time (if the
terrain is at all forgiving), and you probably don't need to unload
everything, just the heavy stuff, especially if you are taking plastic boats
(which don't hold their shape as well as fibreglass under stress). I found
that you need the smaller gear for handy packing (single burner stoves,
etc.), but that isn't all that bad, since you can carry multiple of them. It
just runs into more money to pack efficiently. The redundant gear, however,
means that you can't carry as much as you would in a canoe, which is pretty
forgiving about how much you put into it. That said, I'd prefer to paddle
singles and don't understand those that prefer doubles. I can remember how
the person doing the steering often has to make the front paddler
uncomfortable in order to navigate in tight quaters. My wife didn't like
that much at all .

My wife has set down the law: no doubles. She wants to go where she
wants to go, and doesn't necessarily want to wait for me to get there.

Then too, there is the steering issue. Actually, it's mostly the
steering issue.

She deals with portaging by using wheels (Rolleeze, for her kayak).

Works for us.

Quick question for Steve. Where do you store them if yer packed up for
a long haul trip? We considered wheels because portaging seriously
reduces our choices for tripping. I can't stand portaging, and refuse
to do multi trips per portage.

Cheers

In article .com,
"BeeRich" wrote:

Quick question for Steve. Where do you store them if yer packed up for
a long haul trip? We considered wheels because portaging seriously
reduces our choices for tripping. I can't stand portaging, and refuse
to do multi trips per portage.

On the off chance I'm the Steve in question...

The Rolleeze wheels come apart; the frame folds and the wheels come off.
The frame fits in her Njak's rear compartment, in either of my T16's
holds.

If we're packing a lot of stuff, the frame can stay on the rear deck;
it's light, not hard to tie down. (A Paddleboy should work about the
same.) There's lots of room in the cockpit in front of her feet to store
the wheels, and in mine, for that matter.

We'll likely be visiting #1 Daughter in Minnesota this summer, and her
husband's uncle wants, as usual, to head up to the Boundary Waters area
for a couple of days. We'll probably pack the wheels and rent kayaks for
that trip, rather than trying to ship our sea kayaks by air when we go.

Haven't really looked at using the Rolleze with our Puffin folders,
which we took with us as check-in baggage last summer. I suspect they're
not stiff enough to make it worth trying. They are a little flexy on the
water; they wouldn't be very happy loaded up and being carried or
wheeled, I suspect.

"Steve Hix" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
"BeeRich" wrote:

We'll likely be visiting #1 Daughter in Minnesota this summer, and her
husband's uncle wants, as usual, to head up to the Boundary Waters area
for a couple of days. We'll probably pack the wheels and rent kayaks for
that trip, rather than trying to ship our sea kayaks by air when we go.



Actually portaging devices with wheels are prohibited within the wilderness
are. That and the fact that many portages are not a walk in the park, rocky,
boulder strewn, steep, muddy etc... make portage wheels difficult. Don't let
that stop you from the trip, beautiful place.

"Steve Hix" wrote in message
...
In article
.com,
"BeeRich" wrote:

Quick question for Steve. Where do you store them if yer
packed up for
a long haul trip? We considered wheels because portaging
seriously
reduces our choices for tripping. I can't stand portaging,
and refuse
to do multi trips per portage.

On the off chance I'm the Steve in question...

The Rolleeze wheels come apart; the frame folds and the wheels
come off.
The frame fits in her Njak's rear compartment, in either of my
T16's
holds.

If we're packing a lot of stuff, the frame can stay on the rear
deck;
it's light, not hard to tie down. (A Paddleboy should work
about the
same.) There's lots of room in the cockpit in front of her feet
to store
the wheels, and in mine, for that matter.

We'll likely be visiting #1 Daughter in Minnesota this summer,
and her
husband's uncle wants, as usual, to head up to the Boundary
Waters area
for a couple of days. We'll probably pack the wheels and rent
kayaks for
that trip, rather than trying to ship our sea kayaks by air
when we go.

Haven't really looked at using the Rolleze with our Puffin
folders,
which we took with us as check-in baggage last summer. I
suspect they're
not stiff enough to make it worth trying. They are a little
flexy on the
water; they wouldn't be very happy loaded up and being carried
or
wheeled, I suspect.
==============================
Portage wheels are allowed only on the Prairie portage, Four Mile
portage, Fall-Newton-Pipestone portage, and Back Bay portages
into Basswood Lake and Vermillion-Trout. On the interior they
are a violation.

In article ,
"Dan Williams" wrote:

"Steve Hix" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
"BeeRich" wrote:

We'll likely be visiting #1 Daughter in Minnesota this summer, and her
husband's uncle wants, as usual, to head up to the Boundary Waters area
for a couple of days. We'll probably pack the wheels and rent kayaks for
that trip, rather than trying to ship our sea kayaks by air when we go.


Actually portaging devices with wheels are prohibited within the wilderness
are.

Good to know that *before* we go.

That and the fact that many portages are not a walk in the park, rocky,
boulder strewn, steep, muddy etc... make portage wheels difficult. Don't let
that stop you from the trip, beautiful place.

Fall back to Plan B: multiple trips, as needed, with rucksack.

Thanks for the pointer.

In article et,
"Dan O'Connell" wrote:

Have you considered going to Voyageurs NP instead? Yes...you can be in
Canada at times No portages...just as pretty...(especially Namakan
Narrows/Kettle Falls area)...put-in at Either Crane Lake or Ash River
Visitor Center...either a few days or a week plus is possible depending on
the distance desired. It's all water with island camping and very kayak
friendly/oriented...and again Gorgeous! BWCA can be a "drag" with
kayaks...I'm there every spring as soon as the ice is out. Just a
suggestion...Dan

Sounds like a nice spot for early July (assuming the skeeters don't
carry the smaller paddlers away then).

Definitely sounds good to me. Thanks for the suggestion.