Kayaking Advice Please
 

I am a pretty experienced canoeist (I am in my early 40's and have been
canoe tripping since I was 7 years of age) and most of my experience has
been on lakes and tame white water. I did the majority of my tripping in
Ontario (Algonquin, Temagami, Quetico, Kippawa in QC) and then moved to
Alberta where I wound up switching to hiking. I had my 30+ year old grumman
with me in Alberta but had to leave it there when we moved. In the past few
months my family and I moved to Halifax, NS and am debating canoe vs. kayak.
I have no experience with kayaks and would like to continue tripping. My
children are 8 and 10 years of age - both of whom have had some experience
kayaking up at summer camp. Since I am so near the ocean I would love to be
able to do some trips along the coast but realize we would need sea kayaks.
All that backround covered, here are my questions:

1. For those ex-canoeists who are now ardent kayakers - do you miss it?
What limitations will I experience switching to kayaks vs canoes and what
advantages will I have?

2. Sea vs. river/lake kayak - with 4 of us, I envision either 2 X 2-men
kayaks or 4 single person kayaks. Should I assume that if I want to do both
sea and lake that really ought to just spring for the sea kayaks from the
outset or by lake/river kayaks and just rent when I want to do any ocean
trips? Since I don't plan on major whitewater, I am not concerned about the
maneuverability of the sea kayaks on lakes and rivers unless they are worse
than a canoe (which I doubt).

3. Would you suggest 4 single kayaks, 1 double and 2 singles, 2 doubles?
Pros and cons of doubles vs. singles?

4. Lastly, can anyone give some suggestions as to mid-range brands of boats
to consider/avoid and if you know of any retailers in Nova Scotia?

I know this is a lot of information but i'd appreciate some feedback.
Thanks a lot!

Shrink

Kayaking Advice Please
 

Thanks John! That was very helpful. I'll start browsing shops. I was
considering the tandem plus 2 singles as well. I won't be running anything
over class 2 - pretty much looking at doing the same things with kayaks that
I did with my canoe but have more available speed and easier portaging.
Thanks again!

Shrink


"John Fereira" wrote in message
.. .
"Shrink" wrote in
news:OQ8Ff.178886$km.42875@edtnps89:

I am a pretty experienced canoeist (I am in my early 40's and have been
canoe tripping since I was 7 years of age) and most of my experience
has been on lakes and tame white water. I did the majority of my
tripping in Ontario (Algonquin, Temagami, Quetico, Kippawa in QC) and
then moved to Alberta where I wound up switching to hiking. I had my
30+ year old grumman with me in Alberta but had to leave it there when
we moved. In the past few months my family and I moved to Halifax, NS
and am debating canoe vs. kayak. I have no experience with kayaks and
would like to continue tripping. My children are 8 and 10 years of age
- both of whom have had some experience kayaking up at summer camp.
Since I am so near the ocean I would love to be able to do some trips
along the coast but realize we would need sea kayaks. All that
backround covered, here are my questions:

1. For those ex-canoeists who are now ardent kayakers - do you miss
it? What limitations will I experience switching to kayaks vs canoes
and what advantages will I have?

2. Sea vs. river/lake kayak - with 4 of us, I envision either 2 X
2-men kayaks or 4 single person kayaks. Should I assume that if I want
to do both sea and lake that really ought to just spring for the sea
kayaks from the outset or by lake/river kayaks and just rent when I
want to do any ocean trips? Since I don't plan on major whitewater, I
am not concerned about the maneuverability of the sea kayaks on lakes
and rivers unless they are worse than a canoe (which I doubt).

A sea kayak would be appropriate for sea and lakes but less appropriate on
rivers beyond a class II. Rather than thinking of a kayak for the sea an
d
lake/rivers you shold be thinking of kayaks for sea/lakes or a river
(whitewater) kayak. However, these days "sea kayak" covers a wide range
of
models, many of which would not be appropriate for bigger waters. Whether
or
not you'll be able to paddle a sea kayak on your local rivers as well
depends on how technical the river is and your experience.

3. Would you suggest 4 single kayaks, 1 double and 2 singles, 2
doubles? Pros and cons of doubles vs. singles?

Most here will probably suggest 4 singles. For a family of 4 I would
recommend at least 2 single and a double, but it would be worth renting a
couple of times to find out what your preferences are. Given that you're
considering buying a seat for all four family members the 2 singles, 1
double might be a good option as it might provide a good upgrade path as
well. I'm not going to get into the doubles vs. singles debate again (we
just had one) but there are advantages to both, and only you can really
decide which is best for your situation.

4. Lastly, can anyone give some suggestions as to mid-range brands of
boats to consider/avoid and if you know of any retailers in Nova
Scotia?

Don't know any retailers in Novia Scotia but that should probably be your
first task so you can see if you can rent/demo a few models before buying.
Since you're considering up to four boats you'll most likely be looking at
plastic boats initially. There are lots of good models that would serve
your purposes. I'm somewhat partial to the Prijon boats due to the
quality
of their plastic or one of the Brit manufacturers (Valley or P&H). The
used
kayak market is a good way to get started and often you can find a good
fiberglass boat for about the same price as a new plastic boat. On the
other hand, rocky shorelines can be much harder on a fiberglass boat than
plastic.

It's difficult to make any specific model recommendations without knowing
more about the conditions you'll be paddling and what you really want to
get
out of it. Check out any local shops and find out what is available and
come back and ask about specific models and we might be able to be more
helpful.

Kayaking Advice Please
 

On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 21:16:30 GMT, "Shrink"
wrote:

(snipped)

1. For those ex-canoeists who are now ardent kayakers - do you miss it?

Not much. Still do a canoe thing with my friends every now and then.

What limitations will I experience switching to kayaks vs canoes and what
advantages will I have?

Carrying capacity and weight capacity. A canoe of equal length to a
kayak will carry along a lot more camping goods, firewood, and
coolers. On the other hand, you'll find out, if you hadn't already,
that you don't need a lot of those heavy and space wasting things.

Kayaks give you a much more intimate feeling of the water and of
movement.

--

r.bc vixen. Minnow Goddess. Willow watcher. Often taunted by trout.

Kayaking Advice Please
 

Shrink,

It's all personal preference, but for me, there is no comparison: save
your canoes for the rare times you will want them, and get into a kayak.

I started with canoes (still have a few), then went to white water
kayaking, and to sea and lake kayaking. In my opinion, kayaks are
incomparably more fun. The two drawbacks have been mentioned: it takes
two people to portage a sea kayak, and the hold less (and are harder to
pack). In my view, those are prices worth paying, and in any case, you
can carry enough for several days in a large kayak. Kayaks are much
faster, easier to paddle (the symmetrical work is a lot easier on your
body, especially as you get older), and just more fun, because you sit
at water level and experience the waves differently. I spend a good
part of each summer on a large lake, and I take my kayak out every day I
possibly can. I got in my canoe once or twice last year.

I also prefer being in a boat I can roll in a pinch, although I have
never had to roll my sea kayak and practice just to feel secure. some
people can roll canoes (if you have thigh straps), but I am not that
coordinated.

The real choice is white water or touring, not lake vs. sea. If you are
mostly going to do touring, I would get yourself boats fit for ocean
touring. They are just dandy on lakes too. A bit harder to turn
because they are generally longer, but faster and easier to handle in
rough conditions. In contrast, a short boat designed for lakes is not
really appropriate for use in open ocean. I have an Impex Assateague,
which is sea kayak nearly 18' long, and I use it mostly in a large lake.
The Assateague, by the way, is a wonderful boat.

As for single vs tandem: I've only paddled a tandem a few times. I
think they are less fun because you feel the water less, and unless you
and your partner are really slick, you are not going to learn to roll
it. However, I would give serious thought to one of I were going long
distances with a group, particularly with kids. The nice thing about a
tandem is that you can stick someone who is hurt, ill, or seasick in the
front, put a strong paddler in the back, and do a decent job of keeping
up. I took a trip years ago with an outfitter up your way (Coastal
Adventures), and at that time they often took one tandem along for that
reason.

If you decide on sea kayaks, paddle as many as you can before you make a
choice, and have your family do the same. It really is a matter of
preference and physical fit. E.g., I am moderately large (6'1", 194
pounds),which cuts down the number of boats a lot. I found that most of
the boats for my weight range had seats that were too narrow for my hips
and were very uncomfortable after 20 minutes. Other things that will
affect comfort are the position of the thigh braces, the amount of foot
room, the position of the back band, etc. We are all built differently.

Handling is to some degree also personal taste. E.g., in buying the
Assateague, I decided against a competitor with more rocker that turned
more easily; I would rather have good tracking and have to work a little
harder on turns. I also was willing to give up a little primary
stability (the assateague is narrow and not flat-bottomed) for speed and
secondary stability. If you are new to this, you might make different
choices.

Finally, there is the never-ending debate about plastic vs. glass. I
have not paddled the new plastic boats that are finished like glass and
don't recall what they are called, and I have never used a fancy kevlar
boat, but I have paddled plastic and regular glass. Glass boats do
handle better, but they cost a lot more and are much easier to damage on
rocks, etc. (They are harder to damage on the racks of your car).
Plastic is probably a reasonable place to start. Also, I would hunt for
used boats or clearances at the end of the season, particularly if you
select a common brand.

You have some truly amazing sea kayaking in your neck of the woods, so
have a great time.

Dan




Shrink wrote the following on 2/4/2006 4:16 PM:
I am a pretty experienced canoeist (I am in my early 40's and have been
canoe tripping since I was 7 years of age) and most of my experience has
been on lakes and tame white water. I did the majority of my tripping in
Ontario (Algonquin, Temagami, Quetico, Kippawa in QC) and then moved to
Alberta where I wound up switching to hiking. I had my 30+ year old grumman
with me in Alberta but had to leave it there when we moved. In the past few
months my family and I moved to Halifax, NS and am debating canoe vs. kayak.
I have no experience with kayaks and would like to continue tripping. My
children are 8 and 10 years of age - both of whom have had some experience
kayaking up at summer camp. Since I am so near the ocean I would love to be
able to do some trips along the coast but realize we would need sea kayaks.
All that backround covered, here are my questions:

1. For those ex-canoeists who are now ardent kayakers - do you miss it?
What limitations will I experience switching to kayaks vs canoes and what
advantages will I have?

2. Sea vs. river/lake kayak - with 4 of us, I envision either 2 X 2-men
kayaks or 4 single person kayaks. Should I assume that if I want to do both
sea and lake that really ought to just spring for the sea kayaks from the
outset or by lake/river kayaks and just rent when I want to do any ocean
trips? Since I don't plan on major whitewater, I am not concerned about the
maneuverability of the sea kayaks on lakes and rivers unless they are worse
than a canoe (which I doubt).

3. Would you suggest 4 single kayaks, 1 double and 2 singles, 2 doubles?
Pros and cons of doubles vs. singles?

4. Lastly, can anyone give some suggestions as to mid-range brands of boats
to consider/avoid and if you know of any retailers in Nova Scotia?

I know this is a lot of information but i'd appreciate some feedback.
Thanks a lot!

Shrink

Kayaking Advice Please
 

Hey Rick - thanks for the tips - my wife and I have done a fair bit of
paddling and she is used to me yelling out "DO A DRAW" or "would you PLEASE
shift your weight?!?!?!" though her being used to that probably isn't a good
thing. LOL

I think we may give 4 singles a shot and just make sure we take our time for
the kids (not to mention getting them some extra lessons). We are already
geared up for kayaks - I had to ditch a lot of my bulky canoeing gear when I
moved to Alberta and discovered that carrying a large canvas tumped Woods
pack along with large pots and a coleman stove on a 20km hike was too much
for my old body g. We should be pretty well set gear-wise.

The other thing I hadn't thought about was loading and unloading at
portages. I imagine that the days of trying to keep my shoes dry when
getting in and out of the boat are long gone (even though they never stayed
dry anways). Are single kayaks a pain to portage?

Shrink


"Rick Donnelly" wrote in message
. com...
...stuff deleted

1. For those ex-canoeists who are now ardent kayakers - do you miss it?
What limitations will I experience switching to kayaks vs canoes and what
advantages will I have?


I've never really enjoyed canoes as much as kayaks, but that is strictly a
matter of personal preference. As was mentioned, the intimacy with the
water and motion is different in a (single) kayak and is just too
pleasurable. That said, I've had some fine time in canoes. Canoes can,
however, store considerably more gear. If properly packed, they can be
made at least as sea worthy. If you have experienced canoers, it may be
well to take a canoe, 2 singles, and alternate paddlers, or to take 1
double sea kayak and do everything you can to fit stuff in. A double can
store lots of gear, but the enclosed space has limitations that a canoe
does not.

2. Sea vs. river/lake kayak - with 4 of us, I envision either 2 X 2-men
kayaks or 4 single person kayaks. Should I assume that if I want to do
both
sea and lake that really ought to just spring for the sea kayaks from the
outset or by lake/river kayaks and just rent when I want to do any ocean
trips? Since I don't plan on major whitewater, I am not concerned about
the
maneuverability of the sea kayaks on lakes and rivers unless they are
worse
than a canoe (which I doubt).

Canoes can be used on oceans, as well, and can even be enclosed so that
they don't take in (much) water. Sea kayaks tend to be easier to maneuver
than canoes, though it may be a push with some doubles. I've done
whitewater (class II, low III) in a 17' sea lion and had a fine time, so
that should not be a problem. When camping with the scouts, I found that
the kayak had some significant advantages, especially when it came time to
paddle upstream and to facilitate the landing of other boats in current. I
was able to do many things that would have been very difficult in the
canoes. The biggest drawback was that I had to pack more like a
backpacker, while the scout canoes were carrying gear I would never have
imagined bringing on the trip (ice chests, huge wooden storage bins,
stoves, chairs, etc.). They weren't exactly roughing it the way you might
expect :).


3. Would you suggest 4 single kayaks, 1 double and 2 singles, 2 doubles?
Pros and cons of doubles vs. singles?


It has been said that a true test of a marriage (or any relationship) is
how a couple behaves when paddling in the same boat. I've seen a lot of
people have a miserable time in singles and who loved paddling the front
of a double. I've also seen folks who were much better off in a single as
they were miserable giving up control to the helmsman in the rear. Don't
underestimate the social aspect and personalities of your group. Aside
from storage, the singles will perform better, but the paddlers may not.

4. Lastly, can anyone give some suggestions as to mid-range brands of
boats
to consider/avoid and if you know of any retailers in Nova Scotia?


Can't help much with this, sadly. I guess I need to go to some demo days
again. I haven't done that in quite a while.

Rick

Kayaking Advice Please
 

Dan - thanks so much for the encouragement. You hit the nail on the head
when you pointed out the touring vs. white water distinction. While I am
not yet familiar with the inland waterways in NS, my preference is touring
on big lakes or relative calm and deep rapids (max Class II). My kids are 8
and 10 and have little experience in canoes or kayaks (around 3 canoe trips
under their belts and kayaking during one week at summer camp). I
understand that kayaks are actually more stable when it comes to the chance
of dumping because te low center of gravity and the fact that you don't have
to worry about counterbalancing the weight of the canoe and its load. I
will have to demo a few to see what I prefer. I really don't know yet what
I will be doing more of: lakes or oceans. That's simply because I don't yet
know whether there is a lot of lake tripping that can be done in NS (still
not clear whether there are loop trips that can be done or whether it is
mostly limited to one-way trips). The thing I like about the kayak idea is
that paddling upsteam won't be near as difficult.

If you have any other tips about NS paddling, i'd love to know! Thanks
again!

Shrink

Kayaking Advice Please
 

Shrink--

Re class II: that adds another wrinkle. One thing I would not do with
my sea kayak is to run even class 2. The boat turns too slowly, and for
that matter, in rapids, you often have far less than 18' between rocks.

There are some hybrid boats (Prijon used to make one) that are supposed
to be OK for mild rapids, say up to class III, and touring. Never
paddled one, but my guess is that they are not wonderful for either use.
Shorter touring boats might be an option too. If you are going to
run even class 2, I would also opt for plastic. You can bounce good
plastic boats over rocks without much damage. Whitewater paddlers do it
all the time, sometimes intentionally ('boofing'). Not so fiberglass:
hit a rock and at the least you mess up the gel coat. But in any case,
you hit a blank spot in my experience. I have always run whitewater in
a plastic whitewater boat and never tried to blend the two.

As for NS paddling: you have wonderful options off the south (east?)
coast--e.g., to the northeast of Halifax. There are lots of islands and
shoals that provide reasonably protected water and beautiful scenery,
and the shoals limit motorboats. I have not tried any whitewater or
flat freshwater in NS.

You might want to check out a few short outings with one of the
established outfitters. It would give you a feel for what is around,
and in my view it is always good to start out in any new open water by
going out with people who know the area. My experience with Coastal
Adventures was very good.

Dan



Shrink wrote the following on 2/5/2006 1:46 PM:
Dan - thanks so much for the encouragement. You hit the nail on the head
when you pointed out the touring vs. white water distinction. While I am
not yet familiar with the inland waterways in NS, my preference is touring
on big lakes or relative calm and deep rapids (max Class II). My kids are 8
and 10 and have little experience in canoes or kayaks (around 3 canoe trips
under their belts and kayaking during one week at summer camp). I
understand that kayaks are actually more stable when it comes to the chance
of dumping because te low center of gravity and the fact that you don't have
to worry about counterbalancing the weight of the canoe and its load. I
will have to demo a few to see what I prefer. I really don't know yet what
I will be doing more of: lakes or oceans. That's simply because I don't yet
know whether there is a lot of lake tripping that can be done in NS (still
not clear whether there are loop trips that can be done or whether it is
mostly limited to one-way trips). The thing I like about the kayak idea is
that paddling upsteam won't be near as difficult.

If you have any other tips about NS paddling, i'd love to know! Thanks
again!

Shrink

Kayaking Advice Please
 

"Shrink" wrote...
I have no experience with kayaks and would like to continue tripping. My
children are 8 and 10 years of age - both of whom have had some experience
kayaking up at summer camp. Since I am so near the ocean I would love to be
able to do some trips along the coast but realize we would need sea kayaks.
All that backround covered, here are my questions:

I had little canoeing experience when I took up kayaking a few years ago at near
age 50, but 30+ years of sailing. Now I'm getting ready to sell my last
sailboat, but keep the kayak and the Adirondack Guideboat...


1. For those ex-canoeists who are now ardent kayakers - do you miss it?
What limitations will I experience switching to kayaks vs canoes and what
advantages will I have?

A "sea" kayak will be much more seaworthy than a canoe in swells and waves.
However, a sea/touring/fla****er kayak will not be maneuverable or rugged enough
to use on river rapids. A kayak will not likely carry anywhere as much gear as
a canoe, but that need depends on your tripping habits...


2. Sea vs. river/lake kayak - with 4 of us, I envision either 2 X 2-men
kayaks or 4 single person kayaks. Should I assume that if I want to do both
sea and lake that really ought to just spring for the sea kayaks from the
outset or by lake/river kayaks and just rent when I want to do any ocean
trips? Since I don't plan on major whitewater, I am not concerned about the
maneuverability of the sea kayaks on lakes and rivers unless they are worse
than a canoe (which I doubt).

I think you will be happier with a higher-volume "sea" or "touring" kayak than a
recreational kayak. You will quickly learn to maneuver the kayak so you can
turn it in its own length. Waterline length is conducive to speed for longer
trips, as well as volume for gear-carrying ability.

I think 4 singles will be the best bet. If you are concerned about one of the
kids lagging, you can use a tow harness occasionally to help propel him/her...

3. Would you suggest 4 single kayaks, 1 double and 2 singles, 2 doubles?
Pros and cons of doubles vs. singles?

Doubles: Heavy. Many do not paddle well single-handed. May be faster due to
length, but the slowest boat will be your limiting factor. Two doubles fit on a
car top; 4 singles do not...

Singles: Maneuverable. Can be more easily "customized" for the individual
user.


4. Lastly, can anyone give some suggestions as to mid-range brands of boats
to consider/avoid and if you know of any retailers in Nova Scotia?

I built mine (Pygmy Coho) from a kit. Pygmy and Chesapeake Light Craft may be
the 2 best known kit builders in the US, but there are others. Epoxy over
plywood is actually stronger and lighter than fiberglass or rotomolded plastic,
and there is a certain satisfaction in the building process... You may also
find a few used ones on the market, and either of those companies will build it
for you (for a price...).

Kayaking Advice Please
 

On 5-Feb-2006, "John Weiss" wrote:

Two doubles fit on a car top; 4 singles do not...

I've seen four singles on a cartop using J saddles. It can be done. You'll need a
vehicle that can handle a long crossbar though.

May be faster due to length

Doubles can be faster because they have two paddlers. Length is not the great
contributor to speed in spite of common misconceptions. Doubles are only a
few feet longer but may be over 50% wider.

Mike

Kayaking Advice Please
 

John Fereira wrote:

Dan Koretz wrote

Shrink--

Re class II: that adds another wrinkle. One thing I would not do with
my sea kayak is to run even class 2. The boat turns too slowly, and
for that matter, in rapids, you often have far less than 18' between
rocks.

I'm going to have to disagree here. Class 2, by definition, doesn't require
a great deal of manoevering to avoid obstacles, which typically means that
there is plenty of space between rocks.

You've never paddled WW in the Southeast, have you, John. Within an hour
of where I'm sitting there are literally dozens of rapids that are far
too easy to be considered Class III and are certainly more than "fast
moving water with riffles and small waves," the definition of Class I.
That would make them...you do the math. Our rivers and creeks tend to be
narrow and rocky and require a good deal of maneuvering, which is easy
to do in a WW boat but well beyond the skills of most touring kayak
paddlers.

C'mon down and I'll show you.

Steve

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA