Good point John. Fact is the boat I want to repair has a similar history. Even though a hull gets scratched there's nothing
wrong with wanting to re-do the exterior. It shows a certain degree of caring about one's gear and personal look. Students hear
about 10% of what you say but absorb about 90% of what you are. I agree, hulls shouldn't be treated as furniture. I have some nice
hulls that are used and dinged but I keep them looking good regardless.

Te

"John Fereira" wrote in message .. .
"Michael Daly" wrote in
:

On 9-Jun-2004, "Te Canaille" wrote:

a scratched up hull is a sign of poor control

An unscratched hull is a sign of someone who doesn't take his
kayak anywhere. Or a paddler who has his priorities wrong.
At the infamous kayaking school in Anglesey, they have paddlers
do a surf launch and landing on rocky beaches, just to get folks
away from the fear of putting the kayak into real life situations.
Flat water and lovely sandy beaches represent a small fraction
of real paddling venues.

Gel coat gets scratched and is easy to repair. Most of the folks
I know that think like you paddle expensive strippers. Those
of us that paddle real kayaks (and not showboats) don't worry
about minor dings and scratches. That gets in the way of real
paddling.

I paddle a cedar strip kayak. I've used it in lessons but I actually prefer
to teach in a plastic boat like a Prijon Seayak. Most of the lessons I am
involved in teach self and assisted rescues. Even on a t-rescue (not a full
t-x rescue) there is quite a bit of boat to boat contact. That said, my
cedar strip kayak has quite a few dings and scratches, some of them long and
ugly. I didn't build a kayak to be used as a piece of furniture. I built
the kayak to be paddled and it shows it. When I built my first boat I spent
the last couple of weeks putting on several coats of varnish so that it had
a nice glossy finish. On the day that I launched it I paddled for 15
minutes then came back to the dock to get something and the stern slide
under the dock and hit a metal pipe, putting a 5" long, 1/4" wide scratch on
the rear deck. "OK", I thought, "my boat is finally finished". It's had
lots of scratches and dings since but they're easy to repair.

"Te Canaille" wrote in news:_U_xc.1$MO3.0@lakeread01:

Good point John. Fact is the boat I want to repair has a similar
history. Even though a hull gets scratched there's nothing
wrong with wanting to re-do the exterior. It shows a certain degree of
caring about one's gear and personal look.

And for some that amount of degree is very low, for others very high. If I
thought any of the scratches on the hull of my cedar strip boat
significantly impaired performance or would compromise the integrity of the
hull I'd bring my boat up from my friends shop and refinish it. As long as
they're only cosmetic I'll leave it the shop where it's readily available
for a paddle anytime I want. I'll probably use it for the lesson I'll
probably help with this weekend.

Students hear about 10% of
what you say but absorb about 90% of what you are.

Probably some truth in that. I hesitate, however, to buy the notion that
student equate instructor competance with the physical appearance of the
boat they're paddling, or whether they're decked out in new high tech
clothing. In fact, my experience has had an opposite effect. I also have
been a student many times in classes over the past few years. In one case,
one of the instructers was wearing an old sun faded PFD. Unlike the clean
shaven pretty boy ski instructor image with a french accent, he had a full
beard and a british accent. I listened to everything he said though because
of who he was. His name was Nigel Foster. In another lesson at a sea
kayaking symposium a few years ago I took a refining your forward stroke
class. After introductions we got into our boat and the instructor hopped
into a loaner plastic boat (a Dagger). He attempted to put on the nylon
spray skirt a couple of time before asking me to help put on the poorly
fitting skirt. Once he started paddling though he danced with that kayak
like nothing I had ever seen. The class was very well structured and my
forward stroke improved significantly from that two hour lesson. I was
paying close attention to what he said, as he has probably made more forward
strokes than anyone in the world over the past five years, including the
circumnavigation of all of the British isles, the South Island of New
Zealand, and most recently Iceland. Chris Duff is a remarkable paddler,
even is a cheap plastic boat with a poorly fitting spray skirt.

John : I tend to agree with a lot that you say. When you wrote :

I hesitate, however, to buy the notion that
student equate instructor competence with the physical appearance of the
boat they're paddling, or whether they're decked out in new high tech
clothing.

I think you're putting words in my mouth that were never there. Competence is either there or not. A certain degree or caring is
only that and it means that some folks care about that others don't. The problem with some of the other posters here is that they
were implying that they would judge an instructor on scratches rather than competence.

In one case,
one of the instructers was wearing an old sun faded PFD. Unlike the clean
shaven pretty boy ski instructor image with a french accent,

BTW a faded PFD is a sure sign that it should be replaced. PFD loose floatation over the years and by the time they're faded have
generally lost enough to require a new one.

Te







"John Fereira" wrote in message .. .
"Te Canaille" wrote in news:_U_xc.1$MO3.0@lakeread01:

Good point John. Fact is the boat I want to repair has a similar
history. Even though a hull gets scratched there's nothing
wrong with wanting to re-do the exterior. It shows a certain degree of
caring about one's gear and personal look.

And for some that amount of degree is very low, for others very high. If I
thought any of the scratches on the hull of my cedar strip boat
significantly impaired performance or would compromise the integrity of the
hull I'd bring my boat up from my friends shop and refinish it. As long as
they're only cosmetic I'll leave it the shop where it's readily available
for a paddle anytime I want. I'll probably use it for the lesson I'll
probably help with this weekend.

Students hear about 10% of
what you say but absorb about 90% of what you are.

Probably some truth in that. I hesitate, however, to buy the notion that
student equate instructor competance with the physical appearance of the
boat they're paddling, or whether they're decked out in new high tech
clothing. In fact, my experience has had an opposite effect. I also have
been a student many times in classes over the past few years. In one case,
one of the instructers was wearing an old sun faded PFD. Unlike the clean
shaven pretty boy ski instructor image with a french accent, he had a full
beard and a british accent. I listened to everything he said though because
of who he was. His name was Nigel Foster. In another lesson at a sea
kayaking symposium a few years ago I took a refining your forward stroke
class. After introductions we got into our boat and the instructor hopped
into a loaner plastic boat (a Dagger). He attempted to put on the nylon
spray skirt a couple of time before asking me to help put on the poorly
fitting skirt. Once he started paddling though he danced with that kayak
like nothing I had ever seen. The class was very well structured and my
forward stroke improved significantly from that two hour lesson. I was
paying close attention to what he said, as he has probably made more forward
strokes than anyone in the world over the past five years, including the
circumnavigation of all of the British isles, the South Island of New
Zealand, and most recently Iceland. Chris Duff is a remarkable paddler,
even is a cheap plastic boat with a poorly fitting spray skirt.

Te Canaille wrote:

John : I tend to agree with a lot that you say. When you wrote :

I hesitate, however, to buy the notion that

student equate instructor competence with the physical appearance of the
boat they're paddling, or whether they're decked out in new high tech
clothing.


I think you're putting words in my mouth that were never there. Competence is either there or not. A certain degree or caring is
only that and it means that some folks care about that others don't. The problem with some of the other posters here is that they
were implying that they would judge an instructor on scratches rather than competence.

YOU are the one who said "a scratched hull is a sign of poor control"!

In one case,

one of the instructers was wearing an old sun faded PFD. Unlike the clean
shaven pretty boy ski instructor image with a french accent,

BTW a faded PFD is a sure sign that it should be replaced. PFD loose floatation over the years and by the time they're faded have
generally lost enough to require a new one.

More nonsense. Depending on the color (some fade faster than others) and
the conditions it's used in (such as clear, tropical, lots of sun) a PFD
can fade badly in a single season. It means nothing other than that the
dye in the fabric has given up the ghost. Padding in a PFD doesn't
degrade that quickly.

It's quite obvious that a shiny image means a lot to you. It makes me
wonder if you carry a mirror and a comb in the pockets of your PFD,
instead of a VHF and flares.

"Te Canaille" wrote in news:Wx4yc.18$MO3.8@lakeread01:

John : I tend to agree with a lot that you say. When you wrote :

I hesitate, however, to buy the notion that
student equate instructor competence with the physical appearance of
the boat they're paddling, or whether they're decked out in new high
tech clothing.

I think you're putting words in my mouth that were never there.

I don't think so. If I recall the beginning of this thread correctly you
were asking for information on repairing/replacing gel coat on a boat and
that the primary reason was that the boat has to look good because it was
going to be used for teaching. My impression of that was that you felt that
an unscratched hull would instill an impression of confidence or
professionalism in the students regarding the instructor. My contention
(and Brian's, I believe) is that for many students it can have an opposite
effect. For me, if an instructor is using equipment that appears to be well
used, it indicates that the instructor likely has a lot of experience.

Competence is either there or not. A certain degree or caring is only
that and it means that some folks care about that others don't.

I agree with that.
The
problem with some of the other posters here is that they were implying
that they would judge an instructor on scratches rather than
competence.

In both cases, there is an implication that the students would have a first
impression about the instructor based on the appearance of the equipment
he/she is using.

In one case,
one of the instructers was wearing an old sun faded PFD. Unlike the
clean shaven pretty boy ski instructor image with a french accent,

BTW a faded PFD is a sure sign that it should be replaced. PFD loose
floatation over the years and by the time they're faded have generally
lost enough to require a new one.

A friend of mine just sold an unused PFD that was beginning to fade. It had
been sitting on the rack closest to the window. It was yellow and made of a
fabric which seems prone to fading. My purple Serratus PFD doesn't appear
to have faded much even though I've used it quite a bit for 4-5 years. An
unfaded PDF that appears to be brand new is a sure sign that it has had
little use, which to me, is an indication of less experience.