Very macho, but not very revelent in the world beyond your niche. I'm only suggesting that you take a look at the larger world
of paddling, the vast majority of which is not what you and your circle are into. When I started out in whitewater canoes ( the
kayak had not yet come along ) it was the same way. Boy were we deflated when we found out that only a small percentage of those who
took paddling instruction were in ww canoes. It is hard to accept but there it is. Try to expand your field of knowledge past just
what you do and understand that the huge majority of paddling students are not on a fast track to be a stud paddler or an
instructor. They just simply want to learn a few basic things to have fun on the waterand that's where the large majority of
instruction takes place.
My original post was simply a question about re-gelcoating a hull. It had nothing to do with motives. I received several direct
answers that told me what I needed to know. Why is it that boys like you need to bring this macho, hey dudes I really can scratch up
a hull so I must be a stud, attitude into the mix. Could it be that you need to prove something ? I mean really, judging a paddlers
talents at instruction or technique based on the number of scratches on their hull ? Grow up.

Te

"Michael Daly" wrote in message ...
On 9-Jun-2004, "Te Canaille" wrote:

a scratched up hull is a sign of poor control

An unscratched hull is a sign of someone who doesn't take his
kayak anywhere. Or a paddler who has his priorities wrong.
At the infamous kayaking school in Anglesey, they have paddlers
do a surf launch and landing on rocky beaches, just to get folks
away from the fear of putting the kayak into real life situations.
Flat water and lovely sandy beaches represent a small fraction
of real paddling venues.

Gel coat gets scratched and is easy to repair. Most of the folks
I know that think like you paddle expensive strippers. Those
of us that paddle real kayaks (and not showboats) don't worry
about minor dings and scratches. That gets in the way of real
paddling.

I'm teaching a session on gel coat repair in a couple of weeks
(June 26 to be precise, around 9:30AM) Parry Island in Georgian
Bay - where sandy beaches are usually man-made. If you want
to know how to deal with reality, drop by.

your priorities are a bit narrow.

This from a guy that thinks his kayak's looks are important.

Mike

"Michael Daly" wrote in
:

On 9-Jun-2004, "Te Canaille" wrote:

a scratched up hull is a sign of poor control

An unscratched hull is a sign of someone who doesn't take his
kayak anywhere. Or a paddler who has his priorities wrong.
At the infamous kayaking school in Anglesey, they have paddlers
do a surf launch and landing on rocky beaches, just to get folks
away from the fear of putting the kayak into real life situations.
Flat water and lovely sandy beaches represent a small fraction
of real paddling venues.

Gel coat gets scratched and is easy to repair. Most of the folks
I know that think like you paddle expensive strippers. Those
of us that paddle real kayaks (and not showboats) don't worry
about minor dings and scratches. That gets in the way of real
paddling.

I paddle a cedar strip kayak. I've used it in lessons but I actually prefer
to teach in a plastic boat like a Prijon Seayak. Most of the lessons I am
involved in teach self and assisted rescues. Even on a t-rescue (not a full
t-x rescue) there is quite a bit of boat to boat contact. That said, my
cedar strip kayak has quite a few dings and scratches, some of them long and
ugly. I didn't build a kayak to be used as a piece of furniture. I built
the kayak to be paddled and it shows it. When I built my first boat I spent
the last couple of weeks putting on several coats of varnish so that it had
a nice glossy finish. On the day that I launched it I paddled for 15
minutes then came back to the dock to get something and the stern slide
under the dock and hit a metal pipe, putting a 5" long, 1/4" wide scratch on
the rear deck. "OK", I thought, "my boat is finally finished". It's had
lots of scratches and dings since but they're easy to repair.

Good point John. Fact is the boat I want to repair has a similar history. Even though a hull gets scratched there's nothing
wrong with wanting to re-do the exterior. It shows a certain degree of caring about one's gear and personal look. Students hear
about 10% of what you say but absorb about 90% of what you are. I agree, hulls shouldn't be treated as furniture. I have some nice
hulls that are used and dinged but I keep them looking good regardless.

Te

"John Fereira" wrote in message .. .
"Michael Daly" wrote in
:

On 9-Jun-2004, "Te Canaille" wrote:

a scratched up hull is a sign of poor control

An unscratched hull is a sign of someone who doesn't take his
kayak anywhere. Or a paddler who has his priorities wrong.
At the infamous kayaking school in Anglesey, they have paddlers
do a surf launch and landing on rocky beaches, just to get folks
away from the fear of putting the kayak into real life situations.
Flat water and lovely sandy beaches represent a small fraction
of real paddling venues.

Gel coat gets scratched and is easy to repair. Most of the folks
I know that think like you paddle expensive strippers. Those
of us that paddle real kayaks (and not showboats) don't worry
about minor dings and scratches. That gets in the way of real
paddling.

I paddle a cedar strip kayak. I've used it in lessons but I actually prefer
to teach in a plastic boat like a Prijon Seayak. Most of the lessons I am
involved in teach self and assisted rescues. Even on a t-rescue (not a full
t-x rescue) there is quite a bit of boat to boat contact. That said, my
cedar strip kayak has quite a few dings and scratches, some of them long and
ugly. I didn't build a kayak to be used as a piece of furniture. I built
the kayak to be paddled and it shows it. When I built my first boat I spent
the last couple of weeks putting on several coats of varnish so that it had
a nice glossy finish. On the day that I launched it I paddled for 15
minutes then came back to the dock to get something and the stern slide
under the dock and hit a metal pipe, putting a 5" long, 1/4" wide scratch on
the rear deck. "OK", I thought, "my boat is finally finished". It's had
lots of scratches and dings since but they're easy to repair.

"Te Canaille" wrote in news:_U_xc.1$MO3.0@lakeread01:

Good point John. Fact is the boat I want to repair has a similar
history. Even though a hull gets scratched there's nothing
wrong with wanting to re-do the exterior. It shows a certain degree of
caring about one's gear and personal look.

And for some that amount of degree is very low, for others very high. If I
thought any of the scratches on the hull of my cedar strip boat
significantly impaired performance or would compromise the integrity of the
hull I'd bring my boat up from my friends shop and refinish it. As long as
they're only cosmetic I'll leave it the shop where it's readily available
for a paddle anytime I want. I'll probably use it for the lesson I'll
probably help with this weekend.

Students hear about 10% of
what you say but absorb about 90% of what you are.

Probably some truth in that. I hesitate, however, to buy the notion that
student equate instructor competance with the physical appearance of the
boat they're paddling, or whether they're decked out in new high tech
clothing. In fact, my experience has had an opposite effect. I also have
been a student many times in classes over the past few years. In one case,
one of the instructers was wearing an old sun faded PFD. Unlike the clean
shaven pretty boy ski instructor image with a french accent, he had a full
beard and a british accent. I listened to everything he said though because
of who he was. His name was Nigel Foster. In another lesson at a sea
kayaking symposium a few years ago I took a refining your forward stroke
class. After introductions we got into our boat and the instructor hopped
into a loaner plastic boat (a Dagger). He attempted to put on the nylon
spray skirt a couple of time before asking me to help put on the poorly
fitting skirt. Once he started paddling though he danced with that kayak
like nothing I had ever seen. The class was very well structured and my
forward stroke improved significantly from that two hour lesson. I was
paying close attention to what he said, as he has probably made more forward
strokes than anyone in the world over the past five years, including the
circumnavigation of all of the British isles, the South Island of New
Zealand, and most recently Iceland. Chris Duff is a remarkable paddler,
even is a cheap plastic boat with a poorly fitting spray skirt.

John : I tend to agree with a lot that you say. When you wrote :

I hesitate, however, to buy the notion that
student equate instructor competence with the physical appearance of the
boat they're paddling, or whether they're decked out in new high tech
clothing.

I think you're putting words in my mouth that were never there. Competence is either there or not. A certain degree or caring is
only that and it means that some folks care about that others don't. The problem with some of the other posters here is that they
were implying that they would judge an instructor on scratches rather than competence.

In one case,
one of the instructers was wearing an old sun faded PFD. Unlike the clean
shaven pretty boy ski instructor image with a french accent,

BTW a faded PFD is a sure sign that it should be replaced. PFD loose floatation over the years and by the time they're faded have
generally lost enough to require a new one.

Te







"John Fereira" wrote in message .. .
"Te Canaille" wrote in news:_U_xc.1$MO3.0@lakeread01:

Good point John. Fact is the boat I want to repair has a similar
history. Even though a hull gets scratched there's nothing
wrong with wanting to re-do the exterior. It shows a certain degree of
caring about one's gear and personal look.

And for some that amount of degree is very low, for others very high. If I
thought any of the scratches on the hull of my cedar strip boat
significantly impaired performance or would compromise the integrity of the
hull I'd bring my boat up from my friends shop and refinish it. As long as
they're only cosmetic I'll leave it the shop where it's readily available
for a paddle anytime I want. I'll probably use it for the lesson I'll
probably help with this weekend.

Students hear about 10% of
what you say but absorb about 90% of what you are.

Probably some truth in that. I hesitate, however, to buy the notion that
student equate instructor competance with the physical appearance of the
boat they're paddling, or whether they're decked out in new high tech
clothing. In fact, my experience has had an opposite effect. I also have
been a student many times in classes over the past few years. In one case,
one of the instructers was wearing an old sun faded PFD. Unlike the clean
shaven pretty boy ski instructor image with a french accent, he had a full
beard and a british accent. I listened to everything he said though because
of who he was. His name was Nigel Foster. In another lesson at a sea
kayaking symposium a few years ago I took a refining your forward stroke
class. After introductions we got into our boat and the instructor hopped
into a loaner plastic boat (a Dagger). He attempted to put on the nylon
spray skirt a couple of time before asking me to help put on the poorly
fitting skirt. Once he started paddling though he danced with that kayak
like nothing I had ever seen. The class was very well structured and my
forward stroke improved significantly from that two hour lesson. I was
paying close attention to what he said, as he has probably made more forward
strokes than anyone in the world over the past five years, including the
circumnavigation of all of the British isles, the South Island of New
Zealand, and most recently Iceland. Chris Duff is a remarkable paddler,
even is a cheap plastic boat with a poorly fitting spray skirt.

On 9-Jun-2004, "Te Canaille" wrote:

Very macho, but not very revelent in the world beyond your niche

Nothing macho about it. Just don't assume that paddling a pretty boat
in calm water represents some wide view of the world. I've paddled
lots of places and as I said in my previous post - calm water and sandy
beaches doesn't represent much of real paddling locations. In the
real world scratches happen and it doesn't represent bad boat control
as you foolishly claim.

Why is it that boys like you need to bring this macho, hey dudes I really can scratch up
a hull so I must be a stud, attitude into the mix. Could it be that you need to prove something ?

I never did anything of the kind. I'm not proving anything either. I said that kayaks get
scratched and can be fixed. I also fix them and don't get worked up over having them
look pretty.

I mean really, judging a paddlers
talents at instruction or technique based on the number of scratches on their hull ?

Never did - I just question whether someone that frets over scratches has his head together.

Grow up.

Don't call me boy, junior, and stop talking down to us. It's your attitude that needs
adjustment.

Mike

Anyone out there had any experience replacing a gel coat exterior ?

Sorry...I was a bit late to your post. Gelcoat can be painted with
gelcoat. It's a process similar to painting automotive lacquer. It's
probably an easier solution for you at this point although it will
require a lot of sanding and possibly filler in the deep scratches.
The trick for the gelcoat is the use of a reducer specifically
designed to "air dry" the gelcoat. Acetone or lacquer thinner will
not work and the only way you can get the reducer (in small quantity)
is from a shop than actually works with fiberglass. I use a mix of
1.5% hardener and 5% reducer when I work with repairs and it seems to
do very well for me. Once it hardens, it will require color sanding
with a fine grit paper (400 to 600) and machine buffing. At that
point...it looks the same and has the same durability as it did when
it came from the mold. Just my two cents.

Thanks Barry, that's a lot more than two cents worth of advise. Sounds like I'd be in over my head. I'm probably gonna need a pro
for this.

Te

"Barry" wrote in message om...
Anyone out there had any experience replacing a gel coat exterior ?

Sorry...I was a bit late to your post. Gelcoat can be painted with
gelcoat. It's a process similar to painting automotive lacquer. It's
probably an easier solution for you at this point although it will
require a lot of sanding and possibly filler in the deep scratches.
The trick for the gelcoat is the use of a reducer specifically
designed to "air dry" the gelcoat. Acetone or lacquer thinner will
not work and the only way you can get the reducer (in small quantity)
is from a shop than actually works with fiberglass. I use a mix of
1.5% hardener and 5% reducer when I work with repairs and it seems to
do very well for me. Once it hardens, it will require color sanding
with a fine grit paper (400 to 600) and machine buffing. At that
point...it looks the same and has the same durability as it did when
it came from the mold. Just my two cents.

Te Canaille wrote:
Brian :

Thanks for your opinion and view of paddlesport. Maybe you need to expand your horizons a bit. Paddlesport includes a wide spectrum
of instruction, not just moving water and rocky bottoms. There are many kinds of instruction that does not involve scratching hulls
and being hard on equipment. In fact, more of that than not.

Unless you're teaching nothing other than textbook strokes and braces,
your boat will get scratched up from instructing. For example, teaching
rescues scratches boats, albeit mostly decks. Teaching people in real
conditions (surf, rocks, etc.) scratches boats, mostly hulls.

They perhaps are not part of your world or your venue. I've been around
this for a long while and realize that many people tend to believe that their milieu is the only thing going and it is to them.
Most instruction does not involve basic river or white water, but is done in calm venues. I started out instructing moving and
whitewater and felt as though this was "the paddling world". Once I got off of rivers and went on to other things, I fianlly
realized that worldwide, most hulls are paddled on fla****er without rocks and hulls can and should be kept in good shape. I still
teach in venues in which I expect a hull to be scratched and accept that, but also teach in some where that does not happen and a
scratched up hull is a sign of poor control. Sounds to me as though you've had exposure to only certain types of venues and your
priorities are a bit narrow.

Well, your absolutely wrong, as I don't paddle whitewater at all and
rarely paddle freshwater. Nearly all of my paddling is along the New
England coast.

If you really think that keeping your boat pretty is going to impress
students, you're seriously mistaken. Skill and confidence are what
impresses students, not prissiness. If you think lillydipping around on
flat water is all there is to teaching, you're equally mistaken. Sure, I
teach basic stokes on flat water, but I also teach in the real world.
Teaching someone strokes or rescue techniques on a flat pond and
pronouncing them worthy is a serious mistake, as it doesn't prepare them
anything other than more of the same. In the training we do for our
club's trip leaders, we emphasize real world situations where you have
wind, waves, bad weather, rough shores and panicky, uncooperative and/or
injured victims to deal with. That type of realistic teaching takes a
toll on boats.

"a scratched up hull is a sign of poor control"? Do you actually believe
that? If so, you're the last person I would want to take instruction
from! A scratched hull is sign that a boat gets used and used hard. It's
a sign that the paddler pushes their limits in an effort to learn, or
puts themselves at risk in order to teach. You are the only instructor
I've ever encountered who worries about how pretty their boat is. That
should tell you something.

BTW, there's not much point in trying to hide scratches anyway, since
once the boat is wet, the water film masks the scratches.

Te Canaille wrote:

John : I tend to agree with a lot that you say. When you wrote :

I hesitate, however, to buy the notion that

student equate instructor competence with the physical appearance of the
boat they're paddling, or whether they're decked out in new high tech
clothing.


I think you're putting words in my mouth that were never there. Competence is either there or not. A certain degree or caring is
only that and it means that some folks care about that others don't. The problem with some of the other posters here is that they
were implying that they would judge an instructor on scratches rather than competence.

YOU are the one who said "a scratched hull is a sign of poor control"!

In one case,

one of the instructers was wearing an old sun faded PFD. Unlike the clean
shaven pretty boy ski instructor image with a french accent,

BTW a faded PFD is a sure sign that it should be replaced. PFD loose floatation over the years and by the time they're faded have
generally lost enough to require a new one.

More nonsense. Depending on the color (some fade faster than others) and
the conditions it's used in (such as clear, tropical, lots of sun) a PFD
can fade badly in a single season. It means nothing other than that the
dye in the fabric has given up the ghost. Padding in a PFD doesn't
degrade that quickly.

It's quite obvious that a shiny image means a lot to you. It makes me
wonder if you carry a mirror and a comb in the pockets of your PFD,
instead of a VHF and flares.