I own both and have used both for a number of years. My question is:
"Was the drysuit necessary, or did I fall for the 'sports marketing' hype?"

Have not resolved the question in my own mind yet.

When I was paddling white water boats, I used a full wetsuit and took
many swims in icy Adirondack rivers just after break-up. According to
drysuit proponents, wetsuits are not "good enough" protection for 32-34
degree water, and yet I'm still here and don't recall being especially
uncomfortable in wetsuit during these adventures.

Have swum a few times with the drysuit (once in Glacier Bay with a few
bergy bits floating around...probably also about 32 degrees), but by
choice, never dumped. Likewise, don't recall being too uncomfortable.

So, if the point of either wetsuit or drysuit is to survive cold water
immersion when kayaking/canoeing, can anyone cite examples of deaths
attributable to properly selected and worn wetsuits and drysuits? Have
found credible news stories of one kayaker death in unzipped drysuit,
but no accounts of fatalities for healthy paddler wearing a wetsuit.

Any input?

Thanks and good paddling,
doug m

doug m writes:

I own both and have used both for a number of years. My question is:
"Was the drysuit necessary, or did I fall for the 'sports marketing' hype?"

Have not resolved the question in my own mind yet.

When I was paddling white water boats, I used a full wetsuit and took
many swims in icy Adirondack rivers just after break-up. According to
drysuit proponents, wetsuits are not "good enough" protection for 32-34
degree water, and yet I'm still here and don't recall being especially
uncomfortable in wetsuit during these adventures.

Well, not everyone thermoregulates the same. Perhaps more to the
point, your ability to thermoregulate isn't always the same as it
was some other time. First time I ever went whitewater kayaking was
December 20, in Massachusetts, I wore a wetsuit, AND I swam...but I
also was pretty amped by the whole situation, so who knows?

When people come on this or any other forum and ask questions like,
"Do I really need a x?" or "Which y is right for meeee???", they are
asking something that they themselves can only answer, through trial
and error. But they want information, so people try to give it to
them, and generally, they give conservative advice. Nothing wrong
with that.

Were you a victim of marketing hype? I have no idea. Did you read
a lot of ads saying, "You better get a drysuit OR YOU'LL DIE!!!"?
If the answer is yes, then perhaps you are. If the answer is more
like, "No, I asked a bunch of paddlers and that was the advice I
got," then you're the victim of nothing...except, perhaps, a
beginner's understandable desire to take a shortcut in figuring out
which x is right for them.

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

doug m wrote:

I own both and have used both for a number of years. My question is:
"Was the drysuit necessary, or did I fall for the 'sports marketing' hype?"

You fell for sports marketing hype. Note how the drysuit costs more,
is less durable, and more prone to catastrophic failure.

The only problem with a wetsuit is that, in heavy cold rain, the layer
of warm water next to your skin gets replaced too quickly to rewarm.
However this problem can be mitigated by wearing drypants, at much
lower cost than a drysuit.

What baffles me is the number of drysuits that come with ankle gaskets
instead of integral booties. Unless it keeps your feet dry and warm,
the drysuit's only advantage is that, after boating, you can drive away
without changing clothes.

doug m writes:

Mary Malmros wrote:



except, perhaps, a
beginner's understandable desire to take a shortcut in figuring out
which x is right for them.



"beginner?" bit of an asumption here. started paddling my
parents
[story about how he was paddling in the womb snipped]

Take it easy, take a relax. It's a newbie question, for the most
part: what clothes should I buy. So you weren't a newbie to
paddling...mox nix. You went to buy a drysuit, presumably without
prior experience with 'em that would have allowed you to say, "Yep,
that's what I need." You yourself speculated that you might have
been "the victim of marketing hype", right? So...were you? What
did you base your decision on?
back to the original question...

has anyone seen documented fatalities attributable to hypothermia for a
properly fitted wetsuit or drysuit used in canoeing, rafting or kayaking?

In whitewater, and I expect in calm water too, hypothermia is rarely
the direct cause of death, and it's not something that can show up
on an autopsy like drowning or trauma. I can remember reading
accounts in Charlie Walbridge's safety reports where hypothermia is
listed as a likely contributing factor in a drowning death, but I
doubt you can ever prove that hypothermia was _the_ reason why
someone drowned. But it's a good place to look.

thinking about the question further, surfers in New England use wetsuits
nearly exclusively. i don't think i've ever noted a drysuit used by a
surfer. they spend hours in the water at cold temperatures and require
quick reflexes and great coordination. it would appear that wetsuits
offer these users the protection they need.

Can't answer that one, since I've never surfed in New England.
Check back with me in a few days -- I'm going surfing on Cape Cod
tomorrow.

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

Mary Malmros wrote:

doug m writes:

Mary Malmros wrote:



except, perhaps, a
beginner's understandable desire to take a shortcut in figuring out
which x is right for them.



"beginner?" bit of an asumption here. started paddling my
parents
[story about how he was paddling in the womb snipped]

Take it easy, take a relax. It's a newbie question, for the most
part: what clothes should I buy. So you weren't a newbie to
paddling...mox nix. You went to buy a drysuit, presumably without
prior experience with 'em that would have allowed you to say, "Yep,
that's what I need." You yourself speculated that you might have
been "the victim of marketing hype", right? So...were you? What
did you base your decision on?
back to the original question...

has anyone seen documented fatalities attributable to hypothermia for a
properly fitted wetsuit or drysuit used in canoeing, rafting or kayaking?

In whitewater, and I expect in calm water too, hypothermia is rarely
the direct cause of death, and it's not something that can show up
on an autopsy like drowning or trauma. I can remember reading
accounts in Charlie Walbridge's safety reports where hypothermia is
listed as a likely contributing factor in a drowning death, but I
doubt you can ever prove that hypothermia was _the_ reason why
someone drowned. But it's a good place to look.

thinking about the question further, surfers in New England use wetsuits
nearly exclusively. i don't think i've ever noted a drysuit used by a
surfer. they spend hours in the water at cold temperatures and require
quick reflexes and great coordination. it would appear that wetsuits
offer these users the protection they need.

Can't answer that one, since I've never surfed in New England.
Check back with me in a few days -- I'm going surfing on Cape Cod
tomorrow.

re the surfers in New England - reflecting on my Windsurfing days. they
were more than likely to be using 'steamers'. These are 'wetsuits' but
all the seams are sealed so water can only enter slowly through the neck
hand and feet openings, the zip is usually almost watertight. These are
designed for constant use in the water. Once a thin film of water forms
inside the suit it is warmed by the body and tends to stay put. I used
to windsurf here in the UK in the middle of winter and stay comfortable
so long as I was active. As they are designed for a person who is
actually in the water some or most of the time - I am not sure how
appropriate they would be for someone only taking the occasional,
unplanned dip into the sea or river and then wanting to get out asap.

Within my circle of paddling companions the preference is for a fleece
type layer protected by a waterproof (but not dry) outer shell. This
stops us suffering from the overheating of a dry suit. Though I would
use a dry suit if I knew I was going to get wet - eg when rescue
training, etc.

Bill Tuthill wrote:

doug m wrote:

I own both and have used both for a number of years. My question is:
"Was the drysuit necessary, or did I fall for the 'sports marketing' hype?"

You fell for sports marketing hype.

Baloney.

Note how the drysuit costs more,

This seems to be the crux of the issue for wetsuit proponents. From what I've
seen, most of them are simply looking for justification for NOT spending the
money for a dry suit. If you want to be cheap, be cheap, that's your perogative.
However, that doesn't mean that you're getting equivalent protection

is less durable, and more prone to catastrophic failure.

This is largely a red herring. Sure, the potential for failures is there, but as
a practical matter, it's not an issue. The only gasket failures I've seen have
occured when the paddler was donning or removing the suit, which is when the
gaskets can be stretched pretty hard. They don't fail in use, since they're not
under any appreciable stress.

The only problem with a wetsuit is that, in heavy cold rain, the layer
of warm water next to your skin gets replaced too quickly to rewarm.

No, the real problem with wetsuits is that in order to get the same level of
immersion protection as a drysuit/fleece combination, you'd need a wetsuit so
thick that you couldn't paddle in it, as was mentioned in a previous post.

However this problem can be mitigated by wearing drypants, at much
lower cost than a drysuit.

Dry pants + a wet suit is going to come quite close in price to the cost of a dry
suit.

What baffles me is the number of drysuits that come with ankle gaskets
instead of integral booties. Unless it keeps your feet dry and warm,
the drysuit's only advantage is that, after boating, you can drive away
without changing clothes.

"Only advantage"? Hardly, though it sure is nice not to have to expose damp skin
to a biting winter breeze after paddling. With ankle gaskets, your feet can still
be warm with the proper footwear, though if you end up swimming, they won't stay
dry. Every dry suit manufacturer offers latex or Gore-Tex boots as an option.
They can easily be added to a suit with ankle gaskets by the consumer.

One thing you forgot to mention was the versatility of dry suits. They can be
used with a wide variety of underlayers so they can function well in water/air
temps from below freezing to the low 70's.

In a waterproof/breathable drysuit, you don't have to spend the day "stewing in
your own juices" like you do in a wetsuit. While you may become damp when
exerting yourself, you'll dry off when you reduce your activity level. In a
wetsuit, you start dry, but quickly get damp and it can only get worse as the day
wears on.

Wetsuits have one REAL advantage over dry suits and that is price. If that's what
matters most to you, your decision is simple. Just don't try to delude yourself
into thinking that you're getting the same protection, versatility or comfort for
a bargain basement price. You aren't; you're getting what you paid for.

--
Regards

Brian

doug m wrote:

thinking about the question further, surfers in New England use wetsuits
nearly exclusively. i don't think i've ever noted a drysuit used by a
surfer. they spend hours in the water at cold temperatures and require
quick reflexes and great coordination.

How thick is the neoprene of those wetsuits? 3, 4, 6 mm ?
I don't think that I would want to wear one out of 3mm neoprene for
paddling, 3mm is sometimes to restrictive. And a full wetsuit? I think I
would be very uncomfortable in it, thus likely tempted not to wear it.
As we all know you need immersion protection in case you tip over. Most of
the time this doesn't happen on a seakayaking trip. Surfers and WW paddlers
get wet by nature of the sport, and cool of that way, seakayakers not
necessarily. So we need to find a compromise between being comfortable while
high and dry, and increased survival time in case we find ourselves swimming
next to our boat. Both, wet and drysuit just buy you more time to get out of
the water, but the time window will not last for ever.

I rate the wearing comfort of a breathable drysuit much higher than the one
of a farmer john wet suit, espcl. on those days when the air is warm and the
water is cold -like all summer in Nova Scotia.


Ulli
(Halifax NS, air temperature last weekend 20, water temperature ~10)

Ulli wrote:

How thick is the neoprene of those wetsuits? 3, 4, 6 mm ?
I don't think that I would want to wear one out of 3mm neoprene for
paddling, 3mm is sometimes to restrictive. And a full wetsuit? I think I
would be very uncomfortable in it, thus likely tempted not to wear it.


My own wetsuit from my whitewater paddling/spelunking days was 3mm. I
don't recall it being too constricting. Typical use was probably 6 hrs
for paddling, but have worn the wetsuit for up to 28 hrs. on caving
trips with semi-continuous immersion, much exersion, and the need to
reach in very awkward positions, handle rapelling gear, ascenders, gear
bags, etc. in tight quarters. Did use the wetsuit on a 10 day river
trip in May in the Rockies with snowmelt (Yampa and Green Rivers). Here
the use was again about 6 hrs. per day, but for several days running.
This said, yeah, my drysuit is more comfortable, but I never found the
wetsuit truely uncomfortable.

As we all know you need immersion protection in case you tip over. Most of
the time this doesn't happen on a seakayaking trip. Surfers and WW paddlers
get wet by nature of the sport, and cool of that way, seakayakers not
necessarily.

Wearing drysuit, I often dip my hand in the water or splash some water
on the sleeve to temperature regulate. Overdressing in a drysuit
(wearing too thick an underlayer) is difficult to correct on the water,
easily corrected on land. With the wetsuit, it was usually simply
zipping down the chest zipper for a while to cool down.

So we need to find a compromise between being comfortable while
high and dry, and increased survival time in case we find ourselves swimming
next to our boat. Both, wet and drysuit just buy you more time to get out of
the water, but the time window will not last for ever.


Agreed. The question is "does the wetsuit provide adequate time for
self rescue if required." Clearly, before the ready availability of
drysuits, we all paddled with wetsuits or (I know this is hard to
believe) many layers of wool clothes (a practice I don't recommend to
anyone as a substitute). I cannot recall hearing of or reading any
cases in which someone wearing a wetsuit was lost. I have read one case
of misuse of a dry suit (zipper apparently open for ventilation leading
to flooding of suit on capsize) where death resulted. Clearly this was
not the fault of the drysuit.


I rate the wearing comfort of a breathable drysuit much higher than the one
of a farmer john wet suit, espcl. on those days when the air is warm and the
water is cold -like all summer in Nova Scotia.


So does your bottom line become comfort? While I agree this is
important on extended paddles, as I stated earlier, I don't recall
feeling tortured in my wetsuit.

I still find it hard to conclusively state that a drysuit is "mandatory"
for cold water protection, and that a wetsuit is "inadequate."

good paddling
doug m

I think the answer really comes down to what works for you. Not just what you
prefer, but what WORKS. If you own a wetsuit, get some protection, like
someone ready to rescue you and a place to warm up, then test your cold weather
clothing by trying a capsize, roll, blow the roll and do a rescue.

If you find you are not able to do the rescue because the cold is too much,
then you need a drysuit. I did this at the CPA cold water clinic a few years
ago and purchased a drysuit. I was able to do several rescues after several
rolls, but I knew I would be more comfortable in the drysuit.

When paddling in Maine last year, my two experienced, fellow paddlers wore
wetsuits and I wore my drysuit. I think I was the more comfortable (and less
smelly) of the three. When one tried doing rolls and rescues there, he decared
a farmer john was not sufficient protection in that cold water.

Brian Blankinship

Blankibr wrote:

I think the answer really comes down to what works for you. Not just what you
prefer, but what WORKS. If you own a wetsuit, get some protection, like
someone ready to rescue you and a place to warm up, then test your cold weather
clothing by trying a capsize, roll, blow the roll and do a rescue.

If you find you are not able to do the rescue because the cold is too much,
then you need a drysuit. I did this at the CPA cold water clinic a few years
ago and purchased a drysuit. I was able to do several rescues after several
rolls, but I knew I would be more comfortable in the drysuit.

When paddling in Maine last year, my two experienced, fellow paddlers wore
wetsuits and I wore my drysuit. I think I was the more comfortable (and less
smelly) of the three. When one tried doing rolls and rescues there, he decared
a farmer john was not sufficient protection in that cold water.

Brian Blankinship

Agreed. Another simple test is to walk into the water you plan to paddle in and
stand there for a few minutes. You'll learn quickly whether your immersion gear is
up to the task.

--
Regards

Brian