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#1
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Wetsuits vs. drysuits
I own both and have used both for a number of years. My question is:
"Was the drysuit necessary, or did I fall for the 'sports marketing' hype?" Have not resolved the question in my own mind yet. When I was paddling white water boats, I used a full wetsuit and took many swims in icy Adirondack rivers just after break-up. According to drysuit proponents, wetsuits are not "good enough" protection for 32-34 degree water, and yet I'm still here and don't recall being especially uncomfortable in wetsuit during these adventures. Have swum a few times with the drysuit (once in Glacier Bay with a few bergy bits floating around...probably also about 32 degrees), but by choice, never dumped. Likewise, don't recall being too uncomfortable. So, if the point of either wetsuit or drysuit is to survive cold water immersion when kayaking/canoeing, can anyone cite examples of deaths attributable to properly selected and worn wetsuits and drysuits? Have found credible news stories of one kayaker death in unzipped drysuit, but no accounts of fatalities for healthy paddler wearing a wetsuit. Any input? Thanks and good paddling, doug m |
#2
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Wetsuits vs. drysuits
doug m writes:
I own both and have used both for a number of years. My question is: "Was the drysuit necessary, or did I fall for the 'sports marketing' hype?" Have not resolved the question in my own mind yet. When I was paddling white water boats, I used a full wetsuit and took many swims in icy Adirondack rivers just after break-up. According to drysuit proponents, wetsuits are not "good enough" protection for 32-34 degree water, and yet I'm still here and don't recall being especially uncomfortable in wetsuit during these adventures. Well, not everyone thermoregulates the same. Perhaps more to the point, your ability to thermoregulate isn't always the same as it was some other time. First time I ever went whitewater kayaking was December 20, in Massachusetts, I wore a wetsuit, AND I swam...but I also was pretty amped by the whole situation, so who knows? When people come on this or any other forum and ask questions like, "Do I really need a x?" or "Which y is right for meeee???", they are asking something that they themselves can only answer, through trial and error. But they want information, so people try to give it to them, and generally, they give conservative advice. Nothing wrong with that. Were you a victim of marketing hype? I have no idea. Did you read a lot of ads saying, "You better get a drysuit OR YOU'LL DIE!!!"? If the answer is yes, then perhaps you are. If the answer is more like, "No, I asked a bunch of paddlers and that was the advice I got," then you're the victim of nothing...except, perhaps, a beginner's understandable desire to take a shortcut in figuring out which x is right for them. -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::: Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, Other days you're the bug. |
#3
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Wetsuits vs. drysuits
doug m wrote:
I own both and have used both for a number of years. My question is: "Was the drysuit necessary, or did I fall for the 'sports marketing' hype?" You fell for sports marketing hype. Note how the drysuit costs more, is less durable, and more prone to catastrophic failure. The only problem with a wetsuit is that, in heavy cold rain, the layer of warm water next to your skin gets replaced too quickly to rewarm. However this problem can be mitigated by wearing drypants, at much lower cost than a drysuit. What baffles me is the number of drysuits that come with ankle gaskets instead of integral booties. Unless it keeps your feet dry and warm, the drysuit's only advantage is that, after boating, you can drive away without changing clothes. |
#4
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Wetsuits vs. drysuits
doug m writes:
Mary Malmros wrote: except, perhaps, a beginner's understandable desire to take a shortcut in figuring out which x is right for them. "beginner?" bit of an asumption here. started paddling my parents [story about how he was paddling in the womb snipped] Take it easy, take a relax. It's a newbie question, for the most part: what clothes should I buy. So you weren't a newbie to paddling...mox nix. You went to buy a drysuit, presumably without prior experience with 'em that would have allowed you to say, "Yep, that's what I need." You yourself speculated that you might have been "the victim of marketing hype", right? So...were you? What did you base your decision on? back to the original question... has anyone seen documented fatalities attributable to hypothermia for a properly fitted wetsuit or drysuit used in canoeing, rafting or kayaking? In whitewater, and I expect in calm water too, hypothermia is rarely the direct cause of death, and it's not something that can show up on an autopsy like drowning or trauma. I can remember reading accounts in Charlie Walbridge's safety reports where hypothermia is listed as a likely contributing factor in a drowning death, but I doubt you can ever prove that hypothermia was _the_ reason why someone drowned. But it's a good place to look. thinking about the question further, surfers in New England use wetsuits nearly exclusively. i don't think i've ever noted a drysuit used by a surfer. they spend hours in the water at cold temperatures and require quick reflexes and great coordination. it would appear that wetsuits offer these users the protection they need. Can't answer that one, since I've never surfed in New England. Check back with me in a few days -- I'm going surfing on Cape Cod tomorrow. -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::: Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, Other days you're the bug. |
#5
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Wetsuits vs. drysuits
Mary Malmros wrote:
doug m writes: Mary Malmros wrote: except, perhaps, a beginner's understandable desire to take a shortcut in figuring out which x is right for them. "beginner?" bit of an asumption here. started paddling my parents [story about how he was paddling in the womb snipped] Take it easy, take a relax. It's a newbie question, for the most part: what clothes should I buy. So you weren't a newbie to paddling...mox nix. You went to buy a drysuit, presumably without prior experience with 'em that would have allowed you to say, "Yep, that's what I need." You yourself speculated that you might have been "the victim of marketing hype", right? So...were you? What did you base your decision on? back to the original question... has anyone seen documented fatalities attributable to hypothermia for a properly fitted wetsuit or drysuit used in canoeing, rafting or kayaking? In whitewater, and I expect in calm water too, hypothermia is rarely the direct cause of death, and it's not something that can show up on an autopsy like drowning or trauma. I can remember reading accounts in Charlie Walbridge's safety reports where hypothermia is listed as a likely contributing factor in a drowning death, but I doubt you can ever prove that hypothermia was _the_ reason why someone drowned. But it's a good place to look. thinking about the question further, surfers in New England use wetsuits nearly exclusively. i don't think i've ever noted a drysuit used by a surfer. they spend hours in the water at cold temperatures and require quick reflexes and great coordination. it would appear that wetsuits offer these users the protection they need. Can't answer that one, since I've never surfed in New England. Check back with me in a few days -- I'm going surfing on Cape Cod tomorrow. re the surfers in New England - reflecting on my Windsurfing days. they were more than likely to be using 'steamers'. These are 'wetsuits' but all the seams are sealed so water can only enter slowly through the neck hand and feet openings, the zip is usually almost watertight. These are designed for constant use in the water. Once a thin film of water forms inside the suit it is warmed by the body and tends to stay put. I used to windsurf here in the UK in the middle of winter and stay comfortable so long as I was active. As they are designed for a person who is actually in the water some or most of the time - I am not sure how appropriate they would be for someone only taking the occasional, unplanned dip into the sea or river and then wanting to get out asap. Within my circle of paddling companions the preference is for a fleece type layer protected by a waterproof (but not dry) outer shell. This stops us suffering from the overheating of a dry suit. Though I would use a dry suit if I knew I was going to get wet - eg when rescue training, etc. |
#6
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Wetsuits vs. drysuits
Bill Tuthill wrote: doug m wrote: I own both and have used both for a number of years. My question is: "Was the drysuit necessary, or did I fall for the 'sports marketing' hype?" You fell for sports marketing hype. Baloney. Note how the drysuit costs more, This seems to be the crux of the issue for wetsuit proponents. From what I've seen, most of them are simply looking for justification for NOT spending the money for a dry suit. If you want to be cheap, be cheap, that's your perogative. However, that doesn't mean that you're getting equivalent protection is less durable, and more prone to catastrophic failure. This is largely a red herring. Sure, the potential for failures is there, but as a practical matter, it's not an issue. The only gasket failures I've seen have occured when the paddler was donning or removing the suit, which is when the gaskets can be stretched pretty hard. They don't fail in use, since they're not under any appreciable stress. The only problem with a wetsuit is that, in heavy cold rain, the layer of warm water next to your skin gets replaced too quickly to rewarm. No, the real problem with wetsuits is that in order to get the same level of immersion protection as a drysuit/fleece combination, you'd need a wetsuit so thick that you couldn't paddle in it, as was mentioned in a previous post. However this problem can be mitigated by wearing drypants, at much lower cost than a drysuit. Dry pants + a wet suit is going to come quite close in price to the cost of a dry suit. What baffles me is the number of drysuits that come with ankle gaskets instead of integral booties. Unless it keeps your feet dry and warm, the drysuit's only advantage is that, after boating, you can drive away without changing clothes. "Only advantage"? Hardly, though it sure is nice not to have to expose damp skin to a biting winter breeze after paddling. With ankle gaskets, your feet can still be warm with the proper footwear, though if you end up swimming, they won't stay dry. Every dry suit manufacturer offers latex or Gore-Tex boots as an option. They can easily be added to a suit with ankle gaskets by the consumer. One thing you forgot to mention was the versatility of dry suits. They can be used with a wide variety of underlayers so they can function well in water/air temps from below freezing to the low 70's. In a waterproof/breathable drysuit, you don't have to spend the day "stewing in your own juices" like you do in a wetsuit. While you may become damp when exerting yourself, you'll dry off when you reduce your activity level. In a wetsuit, you start dry, but quickly get damp and it can only get worse as the day wears on. Wetsuits have one REAL advantage over dry suits and that is price. If that's what matters most to you, your decision is simple. Just don't try to delude yourself into thinking that you're getting the same protection, versatility or comfort for a bargain basement price. You aren't; you're getting what you paid for. -- Regards Brian |
#7
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Wetsuits vs. drysuits
doug m wrote: thinking about the question further, surfers in New England use wetsuits nearly exclusively. i don't think i've ever noted a drysuit used by a surfer. they spend hours in the water at cold temperatures and require quick reflexes and great coordination. How thick is the neoprene of those wetsuits? 3, 4, 6 mm ? I don't think that I would want to wear one out of 3mm neoprene for paddling, 3mm is sometimes to restrictive. And a full wetsuit? I think I would be very uncomfortable in it, thus likely tempted not to wear it. As we all know you need immersion protection in case you tip over. Most of the time this doesn't happen on a seakayaking trip. Surfers and WW paddlers get wet by nature of the sport, and cool of that way, seakayakers not necessarily. So we need to find a compromise between being comfortable while high and dry, and increased survival time in case we find ourselves swimming next to our boat. Both, wet and drysuit just buy you more time to get out of the water, but the time window will not last for ever. I rate the wearing comfort of a breathable drysuit much higher than the one of a farmer john wet suit, espcl. on those days when the air is warm and the water is cold -like all summer in Nova Scotia. Ulli (Halifax NS, air temperature last weekend 20, water temperature ~10) |
#8
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Wetsuits vs. drysuits
Ulli wrote: How thick is the neoprene of those wetsuits? 3, 4, 6 mm ? I don't think that I would want to wear one out of 3mm neoprene for paddling, 3mm is sometimes to restrictive. And a full wetsuit? I think I would be very uncomfortable in it, thus likely tempted not to wear it. My own wetsuit from my whitewater paddling/spelunking days was 3mm. I don't recall it being too constricting. Typical use was probably 6 hrs for paddling, but have worn the wetsuit for up to 28 hrs. on caving trips with semi-continuous immersion, much exersion, and the need to reach in very awkward positions, handle rapelling gear, ascenders, gear bags, etc. in tight quarters. Did use the wetsuit on a 10 day river trip in May in the Rockies with snowmelt (Yampa and Green Rivers). Here the use was again about 6 hrs. per day, but for several days running. This said, yeah, my drysuit is more comfortable, but I never found the wetsuit truely uncomfortable. As we all know you need immersion protection in case you tip over. Most of the time this doesn't happen on a seakayaking trip. Surfers and WW paddlers get wet by nature of the sport, and cool of that way, seakayakers not necessarily. Wearing drysuit, I often dip my hand in the water or splash some water on the sleeve to temperature regulate. Overdressing in a drysuit (wearing too thick an underlayer) is difficult to correct on the water, easily corrected on land. With the wetsuit, it was usually simply zipping down the chest zipper for a while to cool down. So we need to find a compromise between being comfortable while high and dry, and increased survival time in case we find ourselves swimming next to our boat. Both, wet and drysuit just buy you more time to get out of the water, but the time window will not last for ever. Agreed. The question is "does the wetsuit provide adequate time for self rescue if required." Clearly, before the ready availability of drysuits, we all paddled with wetsuits or (I know this is hard to believe) many layers of wool clothes (a practice I don't recommend to anyone as a substitute). I cannot recall hearing of or reading any cases in which someone wearing a wetsuit was lost. I have read one case of misuse of a dry suit (zipper apparently open for ventilation leading to flooding of suit on capsize) where death resulted. Clearly this was not the fault of the drysuit. I rate the wearing comfort of a breathable drysuit much higher than the one of a farmer john wet suit, espcl. on those days when the air is warm and the water is cold -like all summer in Nova Scotia. So does your bottom line become comfort? While I agree this is important on extended paddles, as I stated earlier, I don't recall feeling tortured in my wetsuit. I still find it hard to conclusively state that a drysuit is "mandatory" for cold water protection, and that a wetsuit is "inadequate." good paddling doug m |
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