In article , says...
SNIP

Well, if you want to argue, 210 centimeters is not so awfully short
anymore. In the current Sea Kayaker, Greg Barton says "A paddle length
of 200 to 215 cm is best for ...paddlers...5'5" or less. Tall paddlers
should use a length of 210 to 225 cm...Paddles longer than 230 cm should
never be used." This puts PhotoBuff's 210 right in the middle of the
recommended range, suitable for short and tall paddlers both.

It's probably still too expensive, of course. I hope he posts the final
selling price.

And too bad about Whetstone.



Thank you Steve. Your comments are appreciated. If it sells fine if it doesnt I will use it
as a backup paddle. It is so light I dont even know it is around. And shorter paddles are the
more common recommendations by lots of notable paddlers, including Nigel Foster.

Ed

In article VszSa.92745$OZ2.19712@rwcrnsc54, says...


I have to defend photobuff on this matter. I'm not aware of any paddle
company that makes 210 paddles for stock. As an example, my wife uses a 210
cm paddle and we had to special order it from Epic. While on the other
hand, it's simple to walk into a paddle shop and buy the same Epic paddle in
lengths of 215, 220, 230 cm.

Also, I used a 230 cm paddle in a recreational boat I had and it was fine
(wide boat at 25" width). When paddling my NDK Posedein (22") 230 is way
too big. I currently use 215.

Thank you Wade. Your kind comments are definately appreciated.

"PhotoBuff" wrote in message
m...
In article ,
says...


From: John Kuthe

At your asking price of $190, you may be sitting on that paddle for a
long time though!


As an example, a brand spankin' new -with the tags still on it- all
fiberglass 230cm (arguabley the most popular size) Werner Camano paddle
that
retails on line at REI for $240 recently sold on eBay for $177.50


Calculate shipping into that amount and see what you come up with please.
I think it is very
close to my asking price

I didn't realize that your asking price included shipping charges. That's
cool, most people don't do that.

OK. You're right. One does have to start somewhere when selling something,
I suppose. I also didn't realize your price included shipping which is
nice.


"PhotoBuff" wrote in message
m...
The market also allows for offers at less than asking price and seems
people would prefer to
criticize my pricing than make a VALID offer. The price is $190 including
shipping. Offers
considered.

You're quoting the wrong person g. I made no reference to Barton at all.
Don't put me in the middle of this grin.

Wade

"David J. Van den Branden" wrote in message
...

"Wade Norton" wrote in message
news:VszSa.92745$OZ2.19712@rwcrnsc54...

And to most of the paddlers out here, for a touring paddle, 210 is
somewhat
short. Making it not only custom, but somewhat odd. Therefore
lowering
the
value as it narrows the market considerably.

Well, if you want to argue, 210 centimeters is not so awfully short
anymore. In the current Sea Kayaker, Greg Barton says "A paddle length
of 200 to 215 cm is best for ...paddlers...5'5" or less. Tall paddlers
should use a length of 210 to 225 cm...Paddles longer than 230 cm
should
never be used."


Whoa, Wade, wait a second! The above is taken completely out of context!
In that article, Mr. Barton is describing where to start with length when
trying to develop the use of a wing paddle at a nearly vertical angle of
entry that is typically mastered by racers like him. Barton also
typically
paddles boats that have extremely low freeboard. The article gives no
indication what Greg Barton's position on overall paddle length would be
given a normal or low angle style of paddling with a dihedral or flat
blade.

DV

So Wade,

You've ordered at least one ONNO, correct? What's the lead time like?

DV

From: "Wade Norton"
Organization: Comcast Online
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle,rec.boats.paddle.touring
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 06:45:00 GMT
Subject: FS: Carbon Fiber Paddle

You're quoting the wrong person g. I made no reference to Barton at all.
Don't put me in the middle of this grin.

Wade

"David J. Van den Branden" wrote in message
...

"Wade Norton" wrote in message
news:VszSa.92745$OZ2.19712@rwcrnsc54...

And to most of the paddlers out here, for a touring paddle, 210 is
somewhat
short. Making it not only custom, but somewhat odd. Therefore
lowering
the
value as it narrows the market considerably.

Well, if you want to argue, 210 centimeters is not so awfully short
anymore. In the current Sea Kayaker, Greg Barton says "A paddle length
of 200 to 215 cm is best for ...paddlers...5'5" or less. Tall paddlers
should use a length of 210 to 225 cm...Paddles longer than 230 cm
should
never be used."


Whoa, Wade, wait a second! The above is taken completely out of context!
In that article, Mr. Barton is describing where to start with length when
trying to develop the use of a wing paddle at a nearly vertical angle of
entry that is typically mastered by racers like him. Barton also
typically
paddles boats that have extremely low freeboard. The article gives no
indication what Greg Barton's position on overall paddle length would be
given a normal or low angle style of paddling with a dihedral or flat
blade.

DV

No, I haven't ordered an ONNO (yet). My wife has an full carbon Epic
Touring Wayfarer paddle.

I think I will order a ONNO paddle to use as my backup paddle (I know, there
is no reason to buy a carbon for a back up g).

Wade


"David J. Van den Branden" wrote in message
...
So Wade,

You've ordered at least one ONNO, correct? What's the lead time like?

DV

From: "Wade Norton"
Organization: Comcast Online
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle,rec.boats.paddle.touring
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 06:45:00 GMT
Subject: FS: Carbon Fiber Paddle

You're quoting the wrong person g. I made no reference to Barton at
all.
Don't put me in the middle of this grin.

Wade

"David J. Van den Branden" wrote in message
...

"Wade Norton" wrote in message
news:VszSa.92745$OZ2.19712@rwcrnsc54...

And to most of the paddlers out here, for a touring paddle, 210 is
somewhat
short. Making it not only custom, but somewhat odd. Therefore
lowering
the
value as it narrows the market considerably.

Well, if you want to argue, 210 centimeters is not so awfully short
anymore. In the current Sea Kayaker, Greg Barton says "A paddle
length
of 200 to 215 cm is best for ...paddlers...5'5" or less. Tall
paddlers
should use a length of 210 to 225 cm...Paddles longer than 230 cm
should
never be used."


Whoa, Wade, wait a second! The above is taken completely out of
context!
In that article, Mr. Barton is describing where to start with length
when
trying to develop the use of a wing paddle at a nearly vertical angle
of
entry that is typically mastered by racers like him. Barton also
typically
paddles boats that have extremely low freeboard. The article gives no
indication what Greg Barton's position on overall paddle length would
be
given a normal or low angle style of paddling with a dihedral or flat
blade.

DV

"Steve Cramer" wrote in message
...
David J. Van den Branden wrote:
Sorry. Mis read the header info. It was not you that quoted Barton, It
was
Steve.

OK, so let's leave Wade out of this.

Of course.

I was the one who quoted Barton,
but NOT out of context. In the entire article, he refers to wing paddles
exactly once; they are NOT the focus of the article. Nor is high angle
paddling. If you'll read the section before the one I quoted, you'll see
that he discusses both high and low angle strokes for different purposes.

I stand corrected. But as a person that designs and commercializes wing
bladed paddles and does have a fairly distinctive style of paddling, I doubt
if he would be your go to guy if you wanted to promote traditional Aleutian
style paddles.

Then, later, he says "With good technique, it's possible to reach the
water with relatively short paddles. Longer paddles are heavier and
substantially increase the effort, with minimal increase in power."

Sure it's possible to reach the water. As far as longer paddles
substantially increasing the effort, I'm not convinced. To accelerate to
speed perhaps but not necessarily to maintain speed.

Here's my rationale:

If I want to walk 30 miles, I don't start off with a sprint as though I am
going to jog just 5 miles. When riding my road bike over distance on level
terrain, I do not use a low gear for accelerating, I shift to a higher gear
and reduce my cadence and thus, my overall energy output over the distance
ridden. An automobile does the same thing via the transmission. You don't
need as much energy to maintain your speed as you do to get up to that
speed. For long distance paddling, it makes sense that the paddler would
benefit from reducing the range of motion of his arms and torso and reducing
his cadence. A longer paddle allows him to do that. The weight of the paddle
may be negligible since there are many long paddles available that are
lighter than many short paddles that are available. To maintain a
comfortable speed over very long distances, I still believe there is a place
for longer paddles with narrow blade faces. I find that to maintain a
reasonable cruising speed, a relatively narrow blade and a very low stroke
takes very little energy.

By the way, in the rest of the article Brent Reitz says "There's no
reason to use a paddle longer than 225 cm unless you're paddling a wide
boat, such as a tandem or sit-on-top, in which case 240 should be the
maximum length."

David, feel free to paddle with any length you like (you might really
enjoy a 220), but don't accuse me of quoting out of context.

Again, I apologize.

I have a 240 that I rarely use. I agree that 240 is too long... FOR ME.
There may be others out there, however, that still prefer a more traditional
low angle style. I now mostly use a 230. If I were to buy a different, more
narrow kayak, I would definately investigate shorter paddles as I feel the
230 is good for the boat I have now. BTW: I'm 6'2" and my boat is a
relatively wide 23.5". It's a 17 foot boat with much room for gear that I
paddle mostly empty so the boat and I are not displacing as much as the
boats designed displacement. The kayak has very little rocker and when I
edge the boat to turn, on the high side, I need some length to get the blade
in the water, especially if I'm in a 1.5 foot or larger chop. I'm not trying
to convert anyone to any particular belief. I just don't think it's
particularly wise to make a blanket statement that a particular length
should "never be used". In my relatively short time paddling, I've also come
to the personal conclusion that there is no one paddle that is always right
for me. I think Nick Schade of Guillemot Kayaks put it quite nicely when he
wrote:

-- "Too many people think if it is good enough for X it must be good for
them. (For X substitute: the Inuits, Greg Barton, the Voyagers, Derek
Hutchinson, the Aleut, or me) This attitude is a poor substitute for real
knowledge and experience. If you are a subsistence hunter in the arctic, it
is good idea to see what subsistence arctic hunters do, but none of us are.
It is just laziness to accept their solution as the right one without
further investigation.

Modern paddling is still an evolving activity. As such there is a lot of
value at looking at how earlier kayakers solved their particular problems.
This does not mean that our solutions should be the same as theirs. Maybe
they will be, but it is not as obvious as you seem to suggest. By this
discussion, I hope we are investigating the issue" --



Enjoy the water, Steve. I promise I will try to test out some shorter
paddles this fall. And if I'm lucky, in the spring a narrower boat. And if
I'm really lucky, the sinus surgery I just had will work and I will be able
to put my head in the water again without getting an infection!

Cheers

Dave

From: "Michael Daly"
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle,rec.boats.paddle.touring
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 04:48:46 GMT
Subject: FS: Carbon Fiber Paddle

On 28-Jul-2003, "David J. Van den Branden" wrote:

As far as longer paddles
substantially increasing the effort, I'm not convinced.

If you have a longer paddle, the force on the paddle blade is acting
thru a longer moment arm. This increases the torque you have to
apply with arms or (preferably) body rotation to get the same forward
motion.

Substantially, though? It also decreases your stroke rate and decreases the
range of motion that your body has to go through to move the paddle across
the same distance in the water in order to move the kayak forward at a
reasonable speed sustainable over long distances. Assuming your not in a
rush.

I think it's a much more dynamic model. The paddle may require slightly more
input to keep the kayak moving at the same speed as with the short paddle.
But if I decrease my speed by 1/2 or 1 MPH and reduce my cadence and range
of motion a bit, I conserve that energy. The net may be less effort overall
or may be a wash... in which case it comes down to preferences. Food for
thought.

DV

On 29-Jul-2003, "David J. Van den Branden" wrote:

Substantially, though?

That depends. If you 're out for a short paddle, probably not. If you're out for a
long trip, maybe so. It all adds up. Going from 220cm to 240cm is an increase
of 9% - hefty if you're doing a lot of paddling. When I started paddling, 240 was
the recommended length for me. I use 220 now. It also represents more wear
and tear on old joints - significant for me. YMMV

Assuming your not in a rush.

I think it's a much more dynamic model. The paddle may require slightly more
input to keep the kayak moving at the same speed as with the short paddle.
But if I decrease my speed by 1/2 or 1 MPH and reduce my cadence and range
of motion a bit, I conserve that energy. The net may be less effort overall
or may be a wash... in which case it comes down to preferences. Food for
thought.

In this case, you may be comparing apples and oranges. If you're with a group,
slowing down may not be an option. If you're caught in nasty weather and have
to get to your destination, you lose that option as well.

If you compare the same kayak and the same course and speed, the shorter
paddle is more efficient. What you do with that info is up to you.

Mike