Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon
retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along
with his pension.

And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them
out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care
packages for their retireees.

So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and
either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an
exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a
dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for
doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related.

Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy,
get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with
government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and
competitive products.

That will do more for the American economy than any TARP.


And perhaps like Japan, put the burden of paying for health care on
society as a whole, and not on the manufacturers, eh? Would you go for
that, too?

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 06:41:51 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon
retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along
with his pension.

And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them
out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care
packages for their retireees.

So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and
either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an
exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a
dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for
doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related.

Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy,
get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with
government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and
competitive products.

That will do more for the American economy than any TARP.

And perhaps like Japan, put the burden of paying for health care on
society as a whole, and not on the manufacturers, eh? Would you go for
that, too?

Not at all, but let's face it - the health care provisions of the
retirement package are onerous to the health of the corporation.

I'll give you an example. My back operation cost $14,356 in total
which was cheap considering that the main surgeon and assistant were
freebies. That includes room, operating room, drugs, anesthesia,
yada, yada, yada.

My copay for that was $2,300. A UAW retiree, the guy who put four
screws in the afore mentioned dashboard for his career, for that same
operation, which would have included surgeon and assistant fees
totaling about $21,000, would have been $4.

A pre-packaged Chapter1 bankruptcy would allow for restructuring the
health care provisions to something a little more reasonable.

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 06:41:51 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon
retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along
with his pension.
And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them
out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care
packages for their retireees.

So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and
either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an
exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a
dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for
doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related.

Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy,
get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with
government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and
competitive products.

That will do more for the American economy than any TARP.
And perhaps like Japan, put the burden of paying for health care on
society as a whole, and not on the manufacturers, eh? Would you go for
that, too?

Not at all, but let's face it - the health care provisions of the
retirement package are onerous to the health of the corporation.

I'll give you an example. My back operation cost $14,356 in total
which was cheap considering that the main surgeon and assistant were
freebies. That includes room, operating room, drugs, anesthesia,
yada, yada, yada.

My copay for that was $2,300. A UAW retiree, the guy who put four
screws in the afore mentioned dashboard for his career, for that same
operation, which would have included surgeon and assistant fees
totaling about $21,000, would have been $4.

A pre-packaged Chapter1 bankruptcy would allow for restructuring the
health care provisions to something a little more reasonable.


"Restructurings" usually are much harder on the working stiffs than the
management pukes. And why should a retiree on a fixed income have to
fork over $2300 for necessary surgery?

I agree that the burden of paying for necessary health care should be
lifted from US corporations, and handled the way it is in other modern
countries.

I'm also a bit wearing of hearing about Joe the Auto Assembly Line
Worker, whose career consisted of putting four screws in a dashboard.
If that is all Joe does, and it is unlikely, then that is the job
management wants done. It isn't his fault. I haven't been in an auto
plant in many years, but when I was last in one, I didn't see any jobs
like that, and all the jobs I saw were certainly more valuable than
being, oh, a stock broker or plumbing supply dealer or software pussy.

Boater wrote:
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 06:41:51 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and
upon retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health
coverage along with his pension.
And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them
out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care
packages for their retireees.

So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and
either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an
exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a
dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for
doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related.

Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy,
get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with
government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and
competitive products.

That will do more for the American economy than any TARP.
And perhaps like Japan, put the burden of paying for health care on
society as a whole, and not on the manufacturers, eh? Would you go
for that, too?

Not at all, but let's face it - the health care provisions of the
retirement package are onerous to the health of the corporation.

I'll give you an example. My back operation cost $14,356 in total
which was cheap considering that the main surgeon and assistant were
freebies. That includes room, operating room, drugs, anesthesia,
yada, yada, yada.

My copay for that was $2,300. A UAW retiree, the guy who put four
screws in the afore mentioned dashboard for his career, for that same
operation, which would have included surgeon and assistant fees
totaling about $21,000, would have been $4.

A pre-packaged Chapter1 bankruptcy would allow for restructuring the
health care provisions to something a little more reasonable.


"Restructurings" usually are much harder on the working stiffs than the
management pukes. And why should a retiree on a fixed income have to
fork over $2300 for necessary surgery?

I agree that the burden of paying for necessary health care should be
lifted from US corporations, and handled the way it is in other modern
countries.

I'm also a bit wearing of hearing about Joe the Auto Assembly Line
Worker, whose career consisted of putting four screws in a dashboard.
If that is all Joe does, and it is unlikely, then that is the job
management wants done. It isn't his fault. I haven't been in an auto
plant in many years, but when I was last in one, I didn't see any jobs
like that, and all the jobs I saw were certainly more valuable than
being, oh, a stock broker or plumbing supply dealer or software pussy.

Or a writer pansy pussy

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 07:48:55 -0500, Boater wrote:


"Restructurings" usually are much harder on the working stiffs than the
management pukes.

Yup, sure is a lot of gnashing of teeth over working stiffs. Funny, I
don't recall near as much about the billions in bonuses given to managers
that actually ran their companies into the ground. Damn unions are
ruining this country. So Harry, when did Lehman Brothers go union?

wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 07:48:55 -0500, Boater wrote:


"Restructurings" usually are much harder on the working stiffs than the
management pukes.

Yup, sure is a lot of gnashing of teeth over working stiffs. Funny, I
don't recall near as much about the billions in bonuses given to managers
that actually ran their companies into the ground. Damn unions are
ruining this country. So Harry, when did Lehman Brothers go union?


You can be sure no one in the Bush Administration gives a damn about
worker bees. Oh...and I just read somewhere that several of the
financial institutions, banks mostly, getting taxpayer bailout money
have reserved some of it for future bonuses for executives.

We're not there yet, and we may not get there in my lifetime, but what
we need in this country is a total restructuring of society that adds
fairness. I'm not talking communism, but I wouldn't mind a bit more
European socialism. More and more this country seems to exist only to
help the wealthy attain more wealth. If that is the direction it is
heading, then it deserves to fail.

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:12:21 -0500, Boater wrote:


You can be sure no one in the Bush Administration gives a damn about
worker bees. Oh...and I just read somewhere that several of the
financial institutions, banks mostly, getting taxpayer bailout money
have reserved some of it for future bonuses for executives.

Yeah, like 10% of *our* money.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...laries-banking



We're not there yet, and we may not get there in my lifetime, but what
we need in this country is a total restructuring of society that adds
fairness. I'm not talking communism, but I wouldn't mind a bit more
European socialism. More and more this country seems to exist only to
help the wealthy attain more wealth. If that is the direction it is
heading, then it deserves to fail.

If it does fail, and I hope it doesn't, it's time to redefine
capitalism. There is no way a few greedy, incompetent *******s should be
able to take down the world's economy.

wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:12:21 -0500, Boater wrote:


You can be sure no one in the Bush Administration gives a damn about
worker bees. Oh...and I just read somewhere that several of the
financial institutions, banks mostly, getting taxpayer bailout money
have reserved some of it for future bonuses for executives.

Yeah, like 10% of *our* money.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...laries-banking



We're not there yet, and we may not get there in my lifetime, but what
we need in this country is a total restructuring of society that adds
fairness. I'm not talking communism, but I wouldn't mind a bit more
European socialism. More and more this country seems to exist only to
help the wealthy attain more wealth. If that is the direction it is
heading, then it deserves to fail.

If it does fail, and I hope it doesn't, it's time to redefine
capitalism. There is no way a few greedy, incompetent *******s should be
able to take down the world's economy.


Going back to the confiscatory tax rates of the 1950s might help. You
know...something like a tax rate of 90% on *all* income over $500,000.
I'd like to see corporations invest in technology, job training, product
improvement and worker benefits, instead of in overpaying mediocre
management. I wouldn't mind seeing us do away with a number of the
purely speculative stock and money instruments, too.

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 07:48:55 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 06:41:51 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon
retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along
with his pension.
And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them
out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care
packages for their retireees.

So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and
either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an
exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a
dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for
doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related.

Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy,
get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with
government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and
competitive products.

That will do more for the American economy than any TARP.
And perhaps like Japan, put the burden of paying for health care on
society as a whole, and not on the manufacturers, eh? Would you go for
that, too?

Not at all, but let's face it - the health care provisions of the
retirement package are onerous to the health of the corporation.

I'll give you an example. My back operation cost $14,356 in total
which was cheap considering that the main surgeon and assistant were
freebies. That includes room, operating room, drugs, anesthesia,
yada, yada, yada.

My copay for that was $2,300. A UAW retiree, the guy who put four
screws in the afore mentioned dashboard for his career, for that same
operation, which would have included surgeon and assistant fees
totaling about $21,000, would have been $4.

A pre-packaged Chapter1 bankruptcy would allow for restructuring the
health care provisions to something a little more reasonable.


"Restructurings" usually are much harder on the working stiffs than the
management pukes. And why should a retiree on a fixed income have to
fork over $2300 for necessary surgery?

I did - and the answer is because it was necessary. A lot of average
joes and "working stiffs" have to do it. Why does the UAW have an
advantage over everybody else.

I agree that the burden of paying for necessary health care should be
lifted from US corporations, and handled the way it is in other modern
countries.

Oh bull****. Tell me about the Canadian system again - you know the
one where the people who can afford to pay cross the border for their
treatments rather than stay in Canada. My daughter sees Canadian
patients all the time - regular basis - because they have long waits
or in some cases, treatments aren't available in Canada because of
costs and/or waiting in lies to have procedures done.

I'm also a bit wearing of hearing about Joe the Auto Assembly Line
Worker, whose career consisted of putting four screws in a dashboard.
If that is all Joe does, and it is unlikely, then that is the job
management wants done. It isn't his fault. I haven't been in an auto
plant in many years, but when I was last in one, I didn't see any jobs
like that,

Harry - stop with the party line crap. For crying out loud, there was
a Discovery channel program the other day about modern assembly lines
and there was one guy who did four screws into the dash of a Ford
pickup and did it over and over and over and over again. Said it was
pretty boring, but it paid well - $34/hr plus bennies.

Get your head out of the sand for once.

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:22:10 GMT, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:

Why does the UAW have an
advantage over everybody else.

Because the Detroit auto industry with their usual short term focus
never bit the bullet, took the big strike and said enough is enough.
The UAW was also fairly clever with their tactics, always going after
the weak sister among the big 3, who ever that happened to be at the
time.