On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 03:59:47 -0500, "D.Duck" wrote:


"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 00:30:19 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

snip

Taxi drivers there told me they got 34 mph on
average - which is pretty damn decent.

Are you sure is wasn't kilometers per *hour*. Or maybe kilometer's per
liter?

I know, I know, you're not used to being up so late. 8)

Yeah - and I'm up early after being up late.

This sucks.

And it's your fault.

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon
retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along
with his pension.

And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them
out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care
packages for their retireees.

So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and
either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an
exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a
dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for
doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related.

Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy,
get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with
government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and
competitive products.

That will do more for the American economy than any TARP.

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 03:59:47 -0500, "D.Duck" wrote:


"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 00:30:19 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

snip

Taxi drivers there told me they got 34 mph on
average - which is pretty damn decent.

Are you sure is wasn't kilometers per *hour*. Or maybe kilometer's per
liter?

I know, I know, you're not used to being up so late. 8)

Yeah - and I'm up early after being up late.

This sucks.

And it's your fault.

I accept the blame with grace and ....

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:12:16 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"D.Duck" wrote in message
m...


My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if resolvable)
in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them.


Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't permanent. It
allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry needs to
do right now. Revise business plans, products and re-negotiate the union
contracts under the watchful eye of a bankruptcy judge.

Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government "investment"
just to keep them in business under their current organizational structures
won't do a damn thing.

I agree.

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon
retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along
with his pension.

And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them
out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care
packages for their retireees.

So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and
either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an
exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a
dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for
doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related.

Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy,
get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with
government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and
competitive products.

That will do more for the American economy than any TARP.


And perhaps like Japan, put the burden of paying for health care on
society as a whole, and not on the manufacturers, eh? Would you go for
that, too?

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:12:16 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

"D.Duck" wrote in message
...

My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if resolvable)
in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them.

Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't permanent. It
allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry needs to
do right now. Revise business plans, products and re-negotiate the union
contracts under the watchful eye of a bankruptcy judge.

Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government "investment"
just to keep them in business under their current organizational structures
won't do a damn thing.

I agree.


I think the bailouts should be stopped dead until the Bush
Administration reveals who has gotten every dollar handed out so far.

Boater wrote:
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:12:16 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

"D.Duck" wrote in message
...

My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if
resolvable) in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them.

Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't permanent.
It allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto
industry needs to do right now. Revise business plans, products and
re-negotiate the union contracts under the watchful eye of a
bankruptcy judge.

Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government
"investment" just to keep them in business under their current
organizational structures won't do a damn thing.

I agree.


I think the bailouts should be stopped dead until the Bush
Administration reveals who has gotten every dollar handed out so far.

For once you have a good idea. If the unions are requires to make public
their business expenses and employee salaries, so should the government
when they hand out gobs of money to poorly managed businesses.

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 06:41:51 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon
retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along
with his pension.

And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them
out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care
packages for their retireees.

So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and
either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an
exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a
dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for
doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related.

Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy,
get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with
government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and
competitive products.

That will do more for the American economy than any TARP.

And perhaps like Japan, put the burden of paying for health care on
society as a whole, and not on the manufacturers, eh? Would you go for
that, too?

Not at all, but let's face it - the health care provisions of the
retirement package are onerous to the health of the corporation.

I'll give you an example. My back operation cost $14,356 in total
which was cheap considering that the main surgeon and assistant were
freebies. That includes room, operating room, drugs, anesthesia,
yada, yada, yada.

My copay for that was $2,300. A UAW retiree, the guy who put four
screws in the afore mentioned dashboard for his career, for that same
operation, which would have included surgeon and assistant fees
totaling about $21,000, would have been $4.

A pre-packaged Chapter1 bankruptcy would allow for restructuring the
health care provisions to something a little more reasonable.

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 06:41:51 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon
retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along
with his pension.
And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them
out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care
packages for their retireees.

So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and
either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an
exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a
dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for
doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related.

Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy,
get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with
government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and
competitive products.

That will do more for the American economy than any TARP.
And perhaps like Japan, put the burden of paying for health care on
society as a whole, and not on the manufacturers, eh? Would you go for
that, too?

Not at all, but let's face it - the health care provisions of the
retirement package are onerous to the health of the corporation.

I'll give you an example. My back operation cost $14,356 in total
which was cheap considering that the main surgeon and assistant were
freebies. That includes room, operating room, drugs, anesthesia,
yada, yada, yada.

My copay for that was $2,300. A UAW retiree, the guy who put four
screws in the afore mentioned dashboard for his career, for that same
operation, which would have included surgeon and assistant fees
totaling about $21,000, would have been $4.

A pre-packaged Chapter1 bankruptcy would allow for restructuring the
health care provisions to something a little more reasonable.


"Restructurings" usually are much harder on the working stiffs than the
management pukes. And why should a retiree on a fixed income have to
fork over $2300 for necessary surgery?

I agree that the burden of paying for necessary health care should be
lifted from US corporations, and handled the way it is in other modern
countries.

I'm also a bit wearing of hearing about Joe the Auto Assembly Line
Worker, whose career consisted of putting four screws in a dashboard.
If that is all Joe does, and it is unlikely, then that is the job
management wants done. It isn't his fault. I haven't been in an auto
plant in many years, but when I was last in one, I didn't see any jobs
like that, and all the jobs I saw were certainly more valuable than
being, oh, a stock broker or plumbing supply dealer or software pussy.

"Boater" wrote in message
...
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon
retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along
with his pension.

And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them
out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care
packages for their retireees.

So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and
either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an
exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a
dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for
doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related.

Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy,
get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with
government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and
competitive products.

That will do more for the American economy than any TARP.


And perhaps like Japan, put the burden of paying for health care on
society as a whole, and not on the manufacturers, eh? Would you go for
that, too?

Where does the manufacturer's money come from? It comes from *society as a
whole*. Society pays for everything, be it through higher prices for goods,
services or taxes.