On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 22:40:09 -0500, tin cup wrote:

The average wage was around 58,000.00 a year.

That's misleading, benefits add at least another 20,000. That is
pretty good pay for unskiled labor, about 2 or 3 times what most
factory workers get.

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 22:40:09 -0500, tin cup wrote:

The average wage was around 58,000.00 a year.

That's misleading, benefits add at least another 20,000. That is
pretty good pay for unskiled labor, about 2 or 3 times what most
factory workers get.


I saw a news clip recently of a GM "worker" standing beside a console on
the assembly line, supervising a bunch of robotic arms assembling a car. His
primary job was to hit the red "Emergency Off" button, if something went
screwy or was called to do so.

His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon
retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along
with his pension.

I don't deny anybody the right to hold a good job with decent pay and
benefits, but it really should be in concert with the person's initiative to
prepare him/her self for that career. I am sorry, but standing around
watching an automated assembly line put cars together for that kind of pay
and benefits just doesn't do it for me, especially when I see others who
have worked hard to educate and qualify themselves for a trade making far
less.

Eisboch

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon
retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along
with his pension.

And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them
out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care
packages for their retireees.

So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and
either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an
exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a
dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for
doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related.

Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy,
get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with
government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and
competitive products.

That will do more for the American economy than any TARP.

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon
retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along
with his pension.

And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them
out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care
packages for their retireees.

So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and
either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an
exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a
dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for
doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related.

Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy,
get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with
government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and
competitive products.

That will do more for the American economy than any TARP.


And perhaps like Japan, put the burden of paying for health care on
society as a whole, and not on the manufacturers, eh? Would you go for
that, too?

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 06:41:51 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon
retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along
with his pension.

And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them
out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care
packages for their retireees.

So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and
either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an
exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a
dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for
doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related.

Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy,
get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with
government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and
competitive products.

That will do more for the American economy than any TARP.

And perhaps like Japan, put the burden of paying for health care on
society as a whole, and not on the manufacturers, eh? Would you go for
that, too?

Not at all, but let's face it - the health care provisions of the
retirement package are onerous to the health of the corporation.

I'll give you an example. My back operation cost $14,356 in total
which was cheap considering that the main surgeon and assistant were
freebies. That includes room, operating room, drugs, anesthesia,
yada, yada, yada.

My copay for that was $2,300. A UAW retiree, the guy who put four
screws in the afore mentioned dashboard for his career, for that same
operation, which would have included surgeon and assistant fees
totaling about $21,000, would have been $4.

A pre-packaged Chapter1 bankruptcy would allow for restructuring the
health care provisions to something a little more reasonable.

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 06:41:51 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon
retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along
with his pension.
And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them
out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care
packages for their retireees.

So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and
either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an
exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a
dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for
doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related.

Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy,
get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with
government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and
competitive products.

That will do more for the American economy than any TARP.
And perhaps like Japan, put the burden of paying for health care on
society as a whole, and not on the manufacturers, eh? Would you go for
that, too?

Not at all, but let's face it - the health care provisions of the
retirement package are onerous to the health of the corporation.

I'll give you an example. My back operation cost $14,356 in total
which was cheap considering that the main surgeon and assistant were
freebies. That includes room, operating room, drugs, anesthesia,
yada, yada, yada.

My copay for that was $2,300. A UAW retiree, the guy who put four
screws in the afore mentioned dashboard for his career, for that same
operation, which would have included surgeon and assistant fees
totaling about $21,000, would have been $4.

A pre-packaged Chapter1 bankruptcy would allow for restructuring the
health care provisions to something a little more reasonable.


"Restructurings" usually are much harder on the working stiffs than the
management pukes. And why should a retiree on a fixed income have to
fork over $2300 for necessary surgery?

I agree that the burden of paying for necessary health care should be
lifted from US corporations, and handled the way it is in other modern
countries.

I'm also a bit wearing of hearing about Joe the Auto Assembly Line
Worker, whose career consisted of putting four screws in a dashboard.
If that is all Joe does, and it is unlikely, then that is the job
management wants done. It isn't his fault. I haven't been in an auto
plant in many years, but when I was last in one, I didn't see any jobs
like that, and all the jobs I saw were certainly more valuable than
being, oh, a stock broker or plumbing supply dealer or software pussy.

Boater wrote:
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 06:41:51 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and
upon retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health
coverage along with his pension.
And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them
out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care
packages for their retireees.

So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and
either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an
exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a
dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for
doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related.

Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy,
get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with
government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and
competitive products.

That will do more for the American economy than any TARP.
And perhaps like Japan, put the burden of paying for health care on
society as a whole, and not on the manufacturers, eh? Would you go
for that, too?

Not at all, but let's face it - the health care provisions of the
retirement package are onerous to the health of the corporation.

I'll give you an example. My back operation cost $14,356 in total
which was cheap considering that the main surgeon and assistant were
freebies. That includes room, operating room, drugs, anesthesia,
yada, yada, yada.

My copay for that was $2,300. A UAW retiree, the guy who put four
screws in the afore mentioned dashboard for his career, for that same
operation, which would have included surgeon and assistant fees
totaling about $21,000, would have been $4.

A pre-packaged Chapter1 bankruptcy would allow for restructuring the
health care provisions to something a little more reasonable.


"Restructurings" usually are much harder on the working stiffs than the
management pukes. And why should a retiree on a fixed income have to
fork over $2300 for necessary surgery?

I agree that the burden of paying for necessary health care should be
lifted from US corporations, and handled the way it is in other modern
countries.

I'm also a bit wearing of hearing about Joe the Auto Assembly Line
Worker, whose career consisted of putting four screws in a dashboard.
If that is all Joe does, and it is unlikely, then that is the job
management wants done. It isn't his fault. I haven't been in an auto
plant in many years, but when I was last in one, I didn't see any jobs
like that, and all the jobs I saw were certainly more valuable than
being, oh, a stock broker or plumbing supply dealer or software pussy.

Or a writer pansy pussy

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 07:48:55 -0500, Boater wrote:


"Restructurings" usually are much harder on the working stiffs than the
management pukes.

Yup, sure is a lot of gnashing of teeth over working stiffs. Funny, I
don't recall near as much about the billions in bonuses given to managers
that actually ran their companies into the ground. Damn unions are
ruining this country. So Harry, when did Lehman Brothers go union?

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 07:48:55 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 06:41:51 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon
retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along
with his pension.
And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them
out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care
packages for their retireees.

So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and
either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an
exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a
dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for
doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related.

Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy,
get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with
government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and
competitive products.

That will do more for the American economy than any TARP.
And perhaps like Japan, put the burden of paying for health care on
society as a whole, and not on the manufacturers, eh? Would you go for
that, too?

Not at all, but let's face it - the health care provisions of the
retirement package are onerous to the health of the corporation.

I'll give you an example. My back operation cost $14,356 in total
which was cheap considering that the main surgeon and assistant were
freebies. That includes room, operating room, drugs, anesthesia,
yada, yada, yada.

My copay for that was $2,300. A UAW retiree, the guy who put four
screws in the afore mentioned dashboard for his career, for that same
operation, which would have included surgeon and assistant fees
totaling about $21,000, would have been $4.

A pre-packaged Chapter1 bankruptcy would allow for restructuring the
health care provisions to something a little more reasonable.


"Restructurings" usually are much harder on the working stiffs than the
management pukes. And why should a retiree on a fixed income have to
fork over $2300 for necessary surgery?

I did - and the answer is because it was necessary. A lot of average
joes and "working stiffs" have to do it. Why does the UAW have an
advantage over everybody else.

I agree that the burden of paying for necessary health care should be
lifted from US corporations, and handled the way it is in other modern
countries.

Oh bull****. Tell me about the Canadian system again - you know the
one where the people who can afford to pay cross the border for their
treatments rather than stay in Canada. My daughter sees Canadian
patients all the time - regular basis - because they have long waits
or in some cases, treatments aren't available in Canada because of
costs and/or waiting in lies to have procedures done.

I'm also a bit wearing of hearing about Joe the Auto Assembly Line
Worker, whose career consisted of putting four screws in a dashboard.
If that is all Joe does, and it is unlikely, then that is the job
management wants done. It isn't his fault. I haven't been in an auto
plant in many years, but when I was last in one, I didn't see any jobs
like that,

Harry - stop with the party line crap. For crying out loud, there was
a Discovery channel program the other day about modern assembly lines
and there was one guy who did four screws into the dash of a Ford
pickup and did it over and over and over and over again. Said it was
pretty boring, but it paid well - $34/hr plus bennies.

Get your head out of the sand for once.

"Boater" wrote in message
...

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:

I'll give you an example. My back operation cost $14,356 in total
which was cheap considering that the main surgeon and assistant were
freebies. That includes room, operating room, drugs, anesthesia,
yada, yada, yada.

My copay for that was $2,300. A UAW retiree, the guy who put four
screws in the afore mentioned dashboard for his career, for that same
operation, which would have included surgeon and assistant fees
totaling about $21,000, would have been $4.

A pre-packaged Chapter1 bankruptcy would allow for restructuring the
health care provisions to something a little more reasonable.


"Restructurings" usually are much harder on the working stiffs than the
management pukes. And why should a retiree on a fixed income have to fork
over $2300 for necessary surgery?



It's called a deductable Harry, something anyone should be prepared for and
also reduces health care premiums somewhat. I'll bet the overall savings
in premium payments by having a reasonable deductable more than covers the
$2,300 over the longer term. In major, long term illnesses, the deductable
is usually capped on a yearly basis, last time I checked.



I agree that the burden of paying for necessary health care should be
lifted from US corporations, and handled the way it is in other modern
countries.

I'm also a bit wearing of hearing about Joe the Auto Assembly Line Worker,
whose career consisted of putting four screws in a dashboard.
If that is all Joe does, and it is unlikely, then that is the job
management wants done. It isn't his fault. I haven't been in an auto plant
in many years, but when I was last in one, I didn't see any jobs like
that, and all the jobs I saw were certainly more valuable than being, oh,
a stock broker or plumbing supply dealer or software pussy.

Like leaning on a post, watching robotic arms assemble a car and the
equivalent of 85 bucks an hour?
He's there because his union has a contract saying he is entitled to be
there.

Eisboch