On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:33:34 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Feb 10, 12:25?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing

Talk to middle and high school teachers about NCLB and see what they
say about the system.

It's a total disaster. ?And in states that require mainstreaming of
those children who are developmentally, physically, mentally or
emotionally "challenged", it's almost impossible to achieve the
standards required by NCLB.


Both of my kids are teaching in the classroom. My son (HS Social
Studies) as a career and my daughter (MS Science) as a step toward
eventually becoming a school administrator.

The have been some positive aspects of the NCLB. For instance,
teachers must demonstrate a level of expertise in the subjec they
teach. The schools can't simply hire a guy because he's a great
football coach and then say, "Oh, yeah...and you'll be teaching two
periods of astronomy every morning so better read a chapter or two
ahead of the students in the text book. Oh, and next semester you'll
be teaching advanced trig, but don't worry about that- nobody will
understand the subject well enought to realize you have no facility
what-so-ever for math."

But in general, the system is not so good. Far too many districts are
strictly "teaching to the test". My son has several classes of HS
freshmen who are spending the entire 9th grade simply studying to pas
the 10th grade NCLB test- it's that critical to the district that
nearly all the 10th graders pass so that the district will continue to
get federal school dollars.

Chuck - in case you don't remember, teachers have been teaching to the test
since mid-terms, quarter exams, semester exams, and finals were given back
in ought-two. Did you never take a 'chapter test'? Do you not believe you
were taught the information to enable you to pass the test?

You folks with your 'teach the test' idea seem to forget all about your own
education, unless you were never tested.

If the tests are developed and administered properly, the teachers don't
know what's on the test anyway. They know what the standards of learning
are, and they try to ensure the students can meet the standards.
--
John H

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:20:49 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:33:34 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Feb 10, 12:25?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing

Talk to middle and high school teachers about NCLB and see what they
say about the system.

It's a total disaster. ?And in states that require mainstreaming of
those children who are developmentally, physically, mentally or
emotionally "challenged", it's almost impossible to achieve the
standards required by NCLB.


Both of my kids are teaching in the classroom. My son (HS Social
Studies) as a career and my daughter (MS Science) as a step toward
eventually becoming a school administrator.

The have been some positive aspects of the NCLB. For instance,
teachers must demonstrate a level of expertise in the subjec they
teach. The schools can't simply hire a guy because he's a great
football coach and then say, "Oh, yeah...and you'll be teaching two
periods of astronomy every morning so better read a chapter or two
ahead of the students in the text book. Oh, and next semester you'll
be teaching advanced trig, but don't worry about that- nobody will
understand the subject well enought to realize you have no facility
what-so-ever for math."

Well, I would think that's a slight exaggeration. In CT, MA, RI and
NY you have to be certified to teach both subject and grade level.
Maybe it's different out there in the Great Northwest, but it's been
that way here for at least 30 years and longer as Mrs. Wave will be
finishing her 38th year this June. As far as I know, the only thing
that the NCLB act did was formalize that practice nationally - I can't
speak to areas outside of NE.

But in general, the system is not so good. Far too many districts are
strictly "teaching to the test". My son has several classes of HS
freshmen who are spending the entire 9th grade simply studying to pas
the 10th grade NCLB test- it's that critical to the district that
nearly all the 10th graders pass so that the district will continue to
get federal school dollars.

That's about the size of it ok.

Horse****. Ask the next question - do the teachers know the test questions?
If so, then the whole thing's been compromised anyway.
--
John H

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:16:23 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:23:55 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Feb 10, 12:06?pm, John H.
The basis for even considering education in the discussion was a claim
that D's oppose "No Child Left Behind", and thaty they do so because
if the amount of education were increased across the country the
number of people supporting the D's would decrease.
Which, by the way, was a valid claim.
--
Then according to your theory, the states with the greatest numbers of
Republicans will be those states with the most successful and
comprehensive educational systems. By the same token, the states with
the smallest number of Republicans will be those states where the
Democrats have succeeded on destroying the education system and
thereby protecting their base.

Care to offer some examples? Half a dozen or so of each would be
sufficient to establish a trend, rather than an exception.


Education isn't a statewide function anywhere that I know of. It's a county
or city function normally.

Unbelievable.

And you used to teach? Who certified you - Wal-Mart?


Herring worked as a substitute teacher. The qualifications for a
substitute teacher in Alexandra, Virginia, where Herring lives, are minimal:

* at least 60 hours of college coursework
* evidence of a negative tuberculin test (or chest x-ray)
* a completed online application
* attend an orientation session (see below)
* criminal background check — at the orientation session, you will
schedule an appointment to return for fingerprinting (the cost to the
applicant is $42)

That's it. No certification. Any idiot can sub teach. That would include
Herring.

The Virginia Department of Education is intimately involved in
educational programming and standards in that state.

You may recall that while he worked as a sub, Herring whined extensively
and repeatedly about the students placed in his charge. These were
mainly minority kids, if memory serves. He was unable to motivate them,
as a properly trained teacher might. Perhaps they didn't respond to his
"Army" ways.

Herring has also had problems with the Latinos living down the street
from him.

HK wrote:


Herring has also had problems with the Latinos living down the street
from him.
Harry,
I don't believe I have seen anyone use an minority group as an insult
except for you.

Why in the world would you use the word gay as an insult, unless you
really believed that would be insulting? What do you believe is wrong
with gays that you would ever call someone a gay loser?

Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
HK wrote:


Herring has also had problems with the Latinos living down the street
from him.
Harry,
I don't believe I have seen anyone use an minority group as an insult
except for you.

Why in the world would you use the word gay as an insult, unless you
really believed that would be insulting? What do you believe is wrong
with gays that you would ever call someone a gay loser?

I have a problem with the Madrasa two doors down.

On Feb 10, 6:24�pm, John H. wrote:
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:25:34 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing





wrote:
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:07:15 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Feb 10, 9:15?am, "Eisboch" wrote:
wrote in message

...

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 08:06:06 -0800, Chuck Gould wrote:

Compare the average level of educational achievement on, say, the left
coast with the average education in customarily red states like
Mississippi, Alabama, Missouri. Then reevaluate. Thanks.

It's worse than that:

http://www.thebluestate.com/2005/10/...06_smarte.html

Note, the 21 states that spend the least on education, are all red.

I always get a kick out of the rationalization that education (or money
spent on it) ?automatically implies"smartness" in people.
There's a lot of stupid people with years of advanced degrees, just as there
are many "smart" people with limited education.

Eisboch

I agree with you entirely.

The basis for even considering education in the discussion was a claim
that D's oppose "No Child Left Behind", and thaty they do so because
if the amount of education were increased across the country the
number of people supporting the D's would decrease.

Talk to middle and high school teachers about NCLB and see what they
say about the system.

It's a total disaster. �And in states that require mainstreaming of
those children who are developmentally, physically, mentally or
emotionally "challenged", it's almost impossible to achieve the
standards required by NCLB.

How one thinks education is a state function is beyond me, other than for
the establishment of overall standards.

Using the challenged as an example of why NCLB doesn't work makes very
little sense. In states with a very strong teachers' union, NCLB doesn't
work. Why? Because the unions don't like their teachers having to meet
standards.

To say that standards shouldn't be used to judge the educational process
makes absolutely no sense. To say that children shouldn't be taught a
curriculum which enables them to meet the standards makes even less sense.
To say that children shouldn't be tested to ensure they meet the standards
makes the least sense of all.
--
John H- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

One of the risks of rigidly enforced "national cirriculum standards"
is the potential for the federal government to manipulate too many of
the details of public education.

For example: What if, in order to qualify for federal aid, a school
district were *required* to teach the "theory of intelligent design"
enough hours to equal any time spent on the "theory of evolution"?
Once we are to that step, how remote would it be to have a very
progressive or very conservative government then dictate that the
theory of intelligent design
was to be the *only* theory discussed in the classroom- (or,
conversely, that it could not be mentioned at all).

Shall we teach as a matter of science, rather than faith, that the
human embryo has a soul at the moment of conception and that abortion
is therefore a "sin"? Shall we teach that responsible teenagers take
precautions to avoid STD's and pregnancy- or shall we teach that
responsible teenagers just say "no" to sex, drugs, and alcohol?

Point is, that some of these decisions should be made at the local
level and reflect the values of the communities in which the schools
are located. If some district in the Bible Belt wants to concentrate
on Intelligent Design as the best available theory explaining the
origin and modification of species, then that district should be
accountable first to the local taxpayers supporting the school rather
than first accountable to a national standard that (might possibly)
mandate Evolution as the preferred explanation..

If some Nazi-like group somehow ascended to federal power 100 years
from now, of what would the "official national cirriculum" be likely
to consist? Scary to contemplate.

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:29:59 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:20:49 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:33:34 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Feb 10, 12:25?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing

Talk to middle and high school teachers about NCLB and see what they
say about the system.

It's a total disaster. ?And in states that require mainstreaming of
those children who are developmentally, physically, mentally or
emotionally "challenged", it's almost impossible to achieve the
standards required by NCLB.


Both of my kids are teaching in the classroom. My son (HS Social
Studies) as a career and my daughter (MS Science) as a step toward
eventually becoming a school administrator.

The have been some positive aspects of the NCLB. For instance,
teachers must demonstrate a level of expertise in the subjec they
teach. The schools can't simply hire a guy because he's a great
football coach and then say, "Oh, yeah...and you'll be teaching two
periods of astronomy every morning so better read a chapter or two
ahead of the students in the text book. Oh, and next semester you'll
be teaching advanced trig, but don't worry about that- nobody will
understand the subject well enought to realize you have no facility
what-so-ever for math."

Well, I would think that's a slight exaggeration. In CT, MA, RI and
NY you have to be certified to teach both subject and grade level.
Maybe it's different out there in the Great Northwest, but it's been
that way here for at least 30 years and longer as Mrs. Wave will be
finishing her 38th year this June. As far as I know, the only thing
that the NCLB act did was formalize that practice nationally - I can't
speak to areas outside of NE.

But in general, the system is not so good. Far too many districts are
strictly "teaching to the test". My son has several classes of HS
freshmen who are spending the entire 9th grade simply studying to pas
the 10th grade NCLB test- it's that critical to the district that
nearly all the 10th graders pass so that the district will continue to
get federal school dollars.

That's about the size of it ok.

Horse****.

Not at all - it's a fact.

Ask the next question - do the teachers know the test questions?

What do you think they teach to?

If so, then the whole thing's been compromised anyway.

That's the point.

True. Have been complaints out here of the teaching to the test. No cures,
they still teach to the test.

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:06:15 -0500, HK wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:16:23 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:23:55 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Feb 10, 12:06?pm, John H.
The basis for even considering education in the discussion was a claim
that D's oppose "No Child Left Behind", and thaty they do so because
if the amount of education were increased across the country the
number of people supporting the D's would decrease.
Which, by the way, was a valid claim.
--
Then according to your theory, the states with the greatest numbers of
Republicans will be those states with the most successful and
comprehensive educational systems. By the same token, the states with
the smallest number of Republicans will be those states where the
Democrats have succeeded on destroying the education system and
thereby protecting their base.

Care to offer some examples? Half a dozen or so of each would be
sufficient to establish a trend, rather than an exception.


Education isn't a statewide function anywhere that I know of. It's a county
or city function normally.
Unbelievable.

And you used to teach? Who certified you - Wal-Mart?

Herring worked as a substitute teacher. The qualifications for a
substitute teacher in Alexandra, Virginia, where Herring lives, are minimal:

* at least 60 hours of college coursework
* evidence of a negative tuberculin test (or chest x-ray)
* a completed online application
* attend an orientation session (see below)
* criminal background check — at the orientation session, you will
schedule an appointment to return for fingerprinting (the cost to the
applicant is $42)

Subs here in CT are required to have a four year degree, have to pass
a teaching methods course and the usual fingerprint checks, etc.

Teacher Aides have to have a two year degree Middle school and up
unless - at the Elementary level it's not required.



Virginia is part of the South.


Did you get my note about your possibly "lunch-by"? This coming weekend
is fine, but I will be gone the weekend of the 23rd.

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 06:38:01 -0500, HK wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:06:15 -0500, HK wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:16:23 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:23:55 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Feb 10, 12:06?pm, John H.
The basis for even considering education in the discussion was a claim
that D's oppose "No Child Left Behind", and thaty they do so because
if the amount of education were increased across the country the
number of people supporting the D's would decrease.
Which, by the way, was a valid claim.
--
Then according to your theory, the states with the greatest numbers of
Republicans will be those states with the most successful and
comprehensive educational systems. By the same token, the states with
the smallest number of Republicans will be those states where the
Democrats have succeeded on destroying the education system and
thereby protecting their base.

Care to offer some examples? Half a dozen or so of each would be
sufficient to establish a trend, rather than an exception.


Education isn't a statewide function anywhere that I know of. It's a county
or city function normally.
Unbelievable.

And you used to teach? Who certified you - Wal-Mart?
Herring worked as a substitute teacher. The qualifications for a
substitute teacher in Alexandra, Virginia, where Herring lives, are minimal:

* at least 60 hours of college coursework
* evidence of a negative tuberculin test (or chest x-ray)
* a completed online application
* attend an orientation session (see below)
* criminal background check — at the orientation session, you will
schedule an appointment to return for fingerprinting (the cost to the
applicant is $42)
Subs here in CT are required to have a four year degree, have to pass
a teaching methods course and the usual fingerprint checks, etc.

Teacher Aides have to have a two year degree Middle school and up
unless - at the Elementary level it's not required.
Virginia is part of the South

Did you get my note about your possibly "lunch-by"? This coming weekend
is fine, but I will be gone the weekend of the 23rd.

Well, so much for that.

However, all is not lost. Scott is bugging me to take a trip down
with him in the Spring - he wants to visit his daughter, I can visit
mine while down there and we can hook up for fishing for a day.


Shoot for the *real* spring, late April or sometime in May, when the
chances of a decent day are pretty high. I ordered some "stuff" for son
of Yo Ho that probably will be installed by the dealer in March-April.
It's the height of "rigging season," so he wants the boat for a week to
10 days after we remove the shrinkwrap.

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:52:14 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:16:23 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:23:55 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Feb 10, 12:06?pm, John H.

The basis for even considering education in the discussion was a claim
that D's oppose "No Child Left Behind", and thaty they do so because
if the amount of education were increased across the country the
number of people supporting the D's would decrease.

Which, by the way, was a valid claim.
--

Then according to your theory, the states with the greatest numbers of
Republicans will be those states with the most successful and
comprehensive educational systems. By the same token, the states with
the smallest number of Republicans will be those states where the
Democrats have succeeded on destroying the education system and
thereby protecting their base.

Care to offer some examples? Half a dozen or so of each would be
sufficient to establish a trend, rather than an exception.



Education isn't a statewide function anywhere that I know of. It's a county
or city function normally.

Unbelievable.

And you used to teach? Who certified you - Wal-Mart?

JimH's argument methods...cut what you don't like and make comments about
the rest.

I was certified by the state of Virginia, Tom.
--
John H