"John H." wrote in message
...
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:11:25 -0800, "Calif Bill"

wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:58:53 -0800, "Calif Bill"

wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
m...
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:29:59 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:20:49 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:33:34 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Feb 10, 12:25?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing

Talk to middle and high school teachers about NCLB and see what
they
say about the system.

It's a total disaster. ?And in states that require mainstreaming
of
those children who are developmentally, physically, mentally or
emotionally "challenged", it's almost impossible to achieve the
standards required by NCLB.


Both of my kids are teaching in the classroom. My son (HS Social
Studies) as a career and my daughter (MS Science) as a step toward
eventually becoming a school administrator.

The have been some positive aspects of the NCLB. For instance,
teachers must demonstrate a level of expertise in the subjec they
teach. The schools can't simply hire a guy because he's a great
football coach and then say, "Oh, yeah...and you'll be teaching two
periods of astronomy every morning so better read a chapter or two
ahead of the students in the text book. Oh, and next semester you'll
be teaching advanced trig, but don't worry about that- nobody will
understand the subject well enought to realize you have no facility
what-so-ever for math."

Well, I would think that's a slight exaggeration. In CT, MA, RI and
NY you have to be certified to teach both subject and grade level.
Maybe it's different out there in the Great Northwest, but it's been
that way here for at least 30 years and longer as Mrs. Wave will be
finishing her 38th year this June. As far as I know, the only thing
that the NCLB act did was formalize that practice nationally - I
can't
speak to areas outside of NE.

But in general, the system is not so good. Far too many districts
are
strictly "teaching to the test". My son has several classes of HS
freshmen who are spending the entire 9th grade simply studying to
pas
the 10th grade NCLB test- it's that critical to the district that
nearly all the 10th graders pass so that the district will continue
to
get federal school dollars.

That's about the size of it ok.

Horse****.

Not at all - it's a fact.

Ask the next question - do the teachers know the test questions?

What do you think they teach to?

If so, then the whole thing's been compromised anyway.

That's the point.

True. Have been complaints out here of the teaching to the test. No
cures,
they still teach to the test.


Easily fixed, if so desired. Don't let the teachers see the test.
--
John H

See my reply about a pool of questions.


Easily fixed. Make the pool so big that the standards must be achieved by
learning all the problems, or don't give the teachers the pool.

Problem solved.
--
John H

The pool by definition has to be limited. And the school districts
encourage teaching to the test. If they have lower ratings, it impacts
their income.

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:10:58 -0800, "Calif Bill"

wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:42:18 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:29:59 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:20:49 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:33:34 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Feb 10, 12:25?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing

Talk to middle and high school teachers about NCLB and see what
they
say about the system.

It's a total disaster. ?And in states that require mainstreaming of
those children who are developmentally, physically, mentally or
emotionally "challenged", it's almost impossible to achieve the
standards required by NCLB.


Both of my kids are teaching in the classroom. My son (HS Social
Studies) as a career and my daughter (MS Science) as a step toward
eventually becoming a school administrator.

The have been some positive aspects of the NCLB. For instance,
teachers must demonstrate a level of expertise in the subjec they
teach. The schools can't simply hire a guy because he's a great
football coach and then say, "Oh, yeah...and you'll be teaching two
periods of astronomy every morning so better read a chapter or two
ahead of the students in the text book. Oh, and next semester you'll
be teaching advanced trig, but don't worry about that- nobody will
understand the subject well enought to realize you have no facility
what-so-ever for math."

Well, I would think that's a slight exaggeration. In CT, MA, RI and
NY you have to be certified to teach both subject and grade level.
Maybe it's different out there in the Great Northwest, but it's been
that way here for at least 30 years and longer as Mrs. Wave will be
finishing her 38th year this June. As far as I know, the only thing
that the NCLB act did was formalize that practice nationally - I can't
speak to areas outside of NE.

But in general, the system is not so good. Far too many districts are
strictly "teaching to the test". My son has several classes of HS
freshmen who are spending the entire 9th grade simply studying to pas
the 10th grade NCLB test- it's that critical to the district that
nearly all the 10th graders pass so that the district will continue
to
get federal school dollars.

That's about the size of it ok.

Horse****.

Not at all - it's a fact.

Ask the next question - do the teachers know the test questions?

What do you think they teach to?

If so, then the whole thing's been compromised anyway.

That's the point.

That's the point where *you* live. That's not the point where standards
are
established, used for curriculum design, taught, and tested. Here the
teachers have no idea of the test questions on the tests. In fact, the
testing room is proctored to ensure the teachers don't give help to the
kids taking the test.

What I see is a state which doesn't want to use standards (CT) being
compared to a state which uses them successfully.

I suppose it's another way to put down Bush - keep whining that NCLB
won't
work.
--
John H

It is a standardized test. The questions are all going to come from a
pool
of questions. A limited pool. So they test to the pool of questions.
The
kids may learn a little extra, but it is not teaching the subject.


Here, there is no 'pool' of questions given to teachers so the teachers
can
teach from the 'pool'.

But, if there were a pool of a few hundred questions for each standard
given to the teachers, I'd have no problem with it.

Teachers have always taught to a test, unless there were no test given. To
think otherwise is ridiculous.
--
John H

The pool of questions is not officially given to the teachers. Maybe? But
they know them very quickly after employment.

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:51:21 -0800, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:11:25 -0800, "Calif Bill"

wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:58:53 -0800, "Calif Bill"

wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
om...
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:29:59 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:20:49 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:33:34 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Feb 10, 12:25?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing

Talk to middle and high school teachers about NCLB and see what
they
say about the system.

It's a total disaster. ?And in states that require mainstreaming
of
those children who are developmentally, physically, mentally or
emotionally "challenged", it's almost impossible to achieve the
standards required by NCLB.


Both of my kids are teaching in the classroom. My son (HS Social
Studies) as a career and my daughter (MS Science) as a step toward
eventually becoming a school administrator.

The have been some positive aspects of the NCLB. For instance,
teachers must demonstrate a level of expertise in the subjec they
teach. The schools can't simply hire a guy because he's a great
football coach and then say, "Oh, yeah...and you'll be teaching two
periods of astronomy every morning so better read a chapter or two
ahead of the students in the text book. Oh, and next semester you'll
be teaching advanced trig, but don't worry about that- nobody will
understand the subject well enought to realize you have no facility
what-so-ever for math."

Well, I would think that's a slight exaggeration. In CT, MA, RI and
NY you have to be certified to teach both subject and grade level.
Maybe it's different out there in the Great Northwest, but it's been
that way here for at least 30 years and longer as Mrs. Wave will be
finishing her 38th year this June. As far as I know, the only thing
that the NCLB act did was formalize that practice nationally - I
can't
speak to areas outside of NE.

But in general, the system is not so good. Far too many districts
are
strictly "teaching to the test". My son has several classes of HS
freshmen who are spending the entire 9th grade simply studying to
pas
the 10th grade NCLB test- it's that critical to the district that
nearly all the 10th graders pass so that the district will continue
to
get federal school dollars.

That's about the size of it ok.

Horse****.

Not at all - it's a fact.

Ask the next question - do the teachers know the test questions?

What do you think they teach to?

If so, then the whole thing's been compromised anyway.

That's the point.

True. Have been complaints out here of the teaching to the test. No
cures,
they still teach to the test.


Easily fixed, if so desired. Don't let the teachers see the test.
--
John H

See my reply about a pool of questions.


Easily fixed. Make the pool so big that the standards must be achieved by
learning all the problems, or don't give the teachers the pool.

Problem solved.
--
John H

The pool by definition has to be limited. And the school districts
encourage teaching to the test. If they have lower ratings, it impacts
their income.


Sounds like you and Tom have the same system.

So what happens in the classrooms? Do the students just get lists of
questions with the answers and memorize them?

It's strange that the system of teaching and testing to standards works
very well here, but is a mess in CT and CA. Sounds like it's purposely
being made a mess to provide political ammunition.

There are problems with getting the learning disabled and non-English
speaking students to meet the standards, but that's not reason to throw out
the use of standards.
--
John H

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:53:24 -0800, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:10:58 -0800, "Calif Bill"

wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
...
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:42:18 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:29:59 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:20:49 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:33:34 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Feb 10, 12:25?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing

Talk to middle and high school teachers about NCLB and see what
they
say about the system.

It's a total disaster. ?And in states that require mainstreaming of
those children who are developmentally, physically, mentally or
emotionally "challenged", it's almost impossible to achieve the
standards required by NCLB.


Both of my kids are teaching in the classroom. My son (HS Social
Studies) as a career and my daughter (MS Science) as a step toward
eventually becoming a school administrator.

The have been some positive aspects of the NCLB. For instance,
teachers must demonstrate a level of expertise in the subjec they
teach. The schools can't simply hire a guy because he's a great
football coach and then say, "Oh, yeah...and you'll be teaching two
periods of astronomy every morning so better read a chapter or two
ahead of the students in the text book. Oh, and next semester you'll
be teaching advanced trig, but don't worry about that- nobody will
understand the subject well enought to realize you have no facility
what-so-ever for math."

Well, I would think that's a slight exaggeration. In CT, MA, RI and
NY you have to be certified to teach both subject and grade level.
Maybe it's different out there in the Great Northwest, but it's been
that way here for at least 30 years and longer as Mrs. Wave will be
finishing her 38th year this June. As far as I know, the only thing
that the NCLB act did was formalize that practice nationally - I can't
speak to areas outside of NE.

But in general, the system is not so good. Far too many districts are
strictly "teaching to the test". My son has several classes of HS
freshmen who are spending the entire 9th grade simply studying to pas
the 10th grade NCLB test- it's that critical to the district that
nearly all the 10th graders pass so that the district will continue
to
get federal school dollars.

That's about the size of it ok.

Horse****.

Not at all - it's a fact.

Ask the next question - do the teachers know the test questions?

What do you think they teach to?

If so, then the whole thing's been compromised anyway.

That's the point.

That's the point where *you* live. That's not the point where standards
are
established, used for curriculum design, taught, and tested. Here the
teachers have no idea of the test questions on the tests. In fact, the
testing room is proctored to ensure the teachers don't give help to the
kids taking the test.

What I see is a state which doesn't want to use standards (CT) being
compared to a state which uses them successfully.

I suppose it's another way to put down Bush - keep whining that NCLB
won't
work.
--
John H

It is a standardized test. The questions are all going to come from a
pool
of questions. A limited pool. So they test to the pool of questions.
The
kids may learn a little extra, but it is not teaching the subject.


Here, there is no 'pool' of questions given to teachers so the teachers
can
teach from the 'pool'.

But, if there were a pool of a few hundred questions for each standard
given to the teachers, I'd have no problem with it.

Teachers have always taught to a test, unless there were no test given. To
think otherwise is ridiculous.
--
John H

The pool of questions is not officially given to the teachers. Maybe? But
they know them very quickly after employment.


Well, there are only so many questions you can ask about George's crossing
of the Delaware, and there are only so many variations to a linear
equation. Are the teachers given the test each year to memorize? Here, the
tests are administered by computer. The teachers never see a the test.

I'm beginning to think you may be believing too much of the 'teach the
test' nonsense you hear from the 'hate Bush' crowd. Or, the state just
doesn't want to do the job properly.


--
John H

JimH wrote:

Sometimes you just have to call them as they are. His is an asshole, plain
and simple.

Maybe he is looking for a new boyfriend.

And you believe you are a christian?

-- Charlie

On Feb 12, 11:44*am, Charlie wrote:
JimH wrote:
Sometimes you just have to call them as they are. *His is an asshole, plain
and simple.

Maybe he is looking for a new boyfriend.

And you believe you are a christian?

-- Charlie

Being a Christian has absolutly nothing at all to do with weather you
are good or bad. It is a name to which believers refer to themselves.
Give it a rest, I am a very bad Christian, so what, my choice, not
really anyone elses business...

wrote:

Being a Christian has absolutly nothing at all to do with weather you
are good or bad.

Amazing. Where'd you learn that?

It is a name to which believers refer to themselves.
Give it a rest, I am a very bad Christian, so what, my choice, not
really anyone elses business...

And I wasn't even referring to you.

Throw a rock into a pack of dogs, and the one that got hit is the one
who yelps.

-- Charlie

HK wrote:
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 06:38:01 -0500, HK wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:06:15 -0500, HK wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:16:23 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:23:55 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Feb 10, 12:06?pm, John H.
The basis for even considering education in the discussion was
a claim
that D's oppose "No Child Left Behind", and thaty they do so
because
if the amount of education were increased across the country the
number of people supporting the D's would decrease.
Which, by the way, was a valid claim.
--
Then according to your theory, the states with the greatest
numbers of
Republicans will be those states with the most successful and
comprehensive educational systems. By the same token, the states
with
the smallest number of Republicans will be those states where the
Democrats have succeeded on destroying the education system and
thereby protecting their base.

Care to offer some examples? Half a dozen or so of each would be
sufficient to establish a trend, rather than an exception.


Education isn't a statewide function anywhere that I know of.
It's a county
or city function normally.
Unbelievable.

And you used to teach? Who certified you - Wal-Mart?
Herring worked as a substitute teacher. The qualifications for a
substitute teacher in Alexandra, Virginia, where Herring lives, are
minimal:

* at least 60 hours of college coursework
* evidence of a negative tuberculin test (or chest x-ray)
* a completed online application
* attend an orientation session (see below)
* criminal background check — at the orientation session, you
will schedule an appointment to return for fingerprinting (the cost
to the applicant is $42)
Subs here in CT are required to have a four year degree, have to pass
a teaching methods course and the usual fingerprint checks, etc.

Teacher Aides have to have a two year degree Middle school and up
unless - at the Elementary level it's not required.
Virginia is part of the South

Did you get my note about your possibly "lunch-by"? This coming
weekend is fine, but I will be gone the weekend of the 23rd.

Well, so much for that.

However, all is not lost. Scott is bugging me to take a trip down
with him in the Spring - he wants to visit his daughter, I can visit
mine while down there and we can hook up for fishing for a day.


Shoot for the *real* spring, late April or sometime in May, when the
chances of a decent day are pretty high. I ordered some "stuff" for son
of Yo Ho that probably will be installed by the dealer in March-April.
It's the height of "rigging season," so he wants the boat for a week to
10 days after we remove the shrinkwrap.

That's a quick turnaround to close the LT and install a bracket.