The demise of a great boat...
 

HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

Employers, students, the labor dept, and hopefully the Unions
themselves have been very disappointed with the effectiveness of the
Job Corp to provide proper training or job placement for grads.


You really are an ignorant a**hole, Reggie. In the construction trades,
the purpose of the job corps is to provide unskilled, undisciplined kids
with a few decent life skills and preliminary job skills so they know
the importance of showing up for work on time, sober, and with an
attitude conducive to work. The job corps provides pre-apprenticeship
training, and a bit of a taste of the sort of skills they'll be learning.

Do you actually know anything about anything, or is your knowledge base
built entirely upon what you google?

One summer working at McDonald's or Burger King will teach than those
basic job skills.

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Nov 24, 12:27�am, "Eisboch" wrote:
"Chuck Gould" wrote in message

...
On Nov 23, 4:21?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:



Cheapie pricing? ?$90,000 for a 26 CC with a 250 Optimax isn't exactly
"cheap". ?I can add thirty thousand to that and buy Eisboch's Grand
Banks which is one hell of a boat.

---------------------------------------------------------

Isn't that his wife's 36-footer? He's only asking $120k? Is it a
woodie?
Even if, that might be cheap.

When the "buyer's market" goes into overdrive next spring, some
enterprising guy can probably make a good living hauling trawlers from
the east coast (where they are underappreciated) up to the NW. He
could backhaul sportfishers, for the same reason.

---------------------------------------------------------

Two boat brokers here in New England have told me of thier observations of
the general local market. �Boat sales are slow and those that *are* selling
are usually to someone out of state.

We actually had someone from your neck of the woods considering the
Navigator. �Apparently my asking price plus the estimated cost to ship from
the east coast to west coast was still less than the current market value of
a similar Navigator on the west coast.
Last we knew they were getting shipping cost details, but I doubt we'll hear
from them again.

I am still going back and forth on this but, for now, the Navigator is
officially off the market. �The cost to replace it is ridiculous and there's
nothing wrong with it or it's systems.

We'll try selling the GB again next spring. �BTW ... it is not wood ... it's
glass. �1982 vintage.

Eisboch

There are three 36 -foot glass GB's listed on Yachtworld in the
Pacific NW, 1980-1984. (It's ok to look at a range of years on most
boats, and the older the boat, the wider the range. Probably could
have done 78-86...)

One of them has a "sale pending", and the asking price was $169k.
Another is on the market for just under $160k, and the third is up in
BC- represented as "the finest example of a 36 Classic we have ever
listed" and they're asking $203k US.

At $120k, your boat could very easily sell to somebody from the W
Coast. My guess is that it could be trucked out for about
$20,000...but it's been a while since I've been involved with
transporting a boat and costs may be up more than I realize. Should be
able to use a 40-foot trailer, and with the flybridge cowling removed
it *might* clear a majority of the overpasses...can't say for sure.

The W Coast market is pretty active starting in January, when we hold
our big boat show. Waiting until spring, you will enjoy the seasonal
uptick in the general market but this year you run the risk of the
general economic climate getting a bit gloomier as the months go by.
When things slow down to a crawl, the desperate folks who *must* sell,
under any circumstance, will pull the market value down on all boats.

If you'd like to get some phone calls about your GB from the W coast,
send me an email. I have a way to make that happen for you.

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Nov 24, 3:49�am, HK wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:21:17 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

The problem, at least here in CT, are the apprenticeship rules the
state adopted. �We have a top flight state tech school system and the
kids who go through the programs are motivated. �The problem with the
electrical/plumber programs comes after graduation. �Each licensed
plumber or electrician can only have one apprentice. �With dictated
pay scales and full benefits, plus mandated insurance costs, the
package costs the employer more than he can afford for each
apprentice. �So for independant electricians/plumbers are in a losing
proposition even if they want to take on apprentices. �Add in the time
required, even with school credits, to make Journeyman status and they
flat out can't afford it.

That is the "union problem".
They are like the medical establishment. They go out of their way to
limit the number of people in the business.

Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations. I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

When the building boom was in full swing, maybe 12-18 months ago, the
carpenter's union was running advertisements trying to entice young
people to sign up for the apprenticeship program. They represented
that journeyman carpenters could earn a wage "consistent with most
college graduates", and regardless of the area of the country one
lives in and whatever the level of prevailing wages, that's probably
true. It should be. A guy who can frame a house has a lot more
economic value, IMO, than somebody who understands all the history and
nuances of 17th Century French oil painting. (I must be a barbarian.)

The demise of a great boat...
 

BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

Employers, students, the labor dept, and hopefully the Unions
themselves have been very disappointed with the effectiveness of the
Job Corp to provide proper training or job placement for grads.


You really are an ignorant a**hole, Reggie. In the construction
trades, the purpose of the job corps is to provide unskilled,
undisciplined kids with a few decent life skills and preliminary job
skills so they know the importance of showing up for work on time,
sober, and with an attitude conducive to work. The job corps provides
pre-apprenticeship training, and a bit of a taste of the sort of
skills they'll be learning.

Do you actually know anything about anything, or is your knowledge
base built entirely upon what you google?

One summer working at McDonald's or Burger King will teach than those
basic job skills.


Is that how you got into the marines?

Obviously, the job corps is another subject about which you know nothing.

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Nov 24, 5:04�am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
That's the point - they don't pay competitive wages. Unnion wages are
always higher by a factor of 25/30% higher than a similar gualified
wage earner.

Take Painters for example. �A Union painter base is $26 an hour to a
max of $30 here in CT. �Work rules are restrictive in terms of hours,
breaks and travel. �I can hire an equally qualified non-Union painter
for less than $15 who will do the job in less time and, in my
experience, better.


Pero usted debe decir el espa�ol para dirigirse una persona
complaciente a trabajar para quince d�lares por hora :-)

The demise of a great boat...
 

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...


I'll give you a work restriction example. When I was helping my
dealer at a boat show, the venue electricians were Union. We needed
to run a 6' extension cord from an outlet right behind the display to
a DVD player. We ran the extension cord, secured it behind the
display with 200 MPH tape to the concrete floor and hooked it up to
the DVD player.

NO NO NO. Had to have an electrician do that. So the electrician
came along and did exactly the same thing we did only it cost the
dealer $80 for five minutes work.


Having exhibited at trade shows and conferences for many years and having
to pay through the nose to have a union electrician plug in an extension
cord at our booth, I feel your pain.

Licenced union electricians are usually well trained, competent and
qualified.
Non-union licenced electricians are usually well trained, competent and
qualified.

What do "you" have in your wallet?

Eisboch

And how much stuff was stolen from the exhibits?

The demise of a great boat...
 

HK wrote:
BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

Employers, students, the labor dept, and hopefully the Unions
themselves have been very disappointed with the effectiveness of the
Job Corp to provide proper training or job placement for grads.


You really are an ignorant a**hole, Reggie. In the construction
trades, the purpose of the job corps is to provide unskilled,
undisciplined kids with a few decent life skills and preliminary job
skills so they know the importance of showing up for work on time,
sober, and with an attitude conducive to work. The job corps provides
pre-apprenticeship training, and a bit of a taste of the sort of
skills they'll be learning.

Do you actually know anything about anything, or is your knowledge
base built entirely upon what you google?

One summer working at McDonald's or Burger King will teach than those
basic job skills.


Is that how you got into the marines?

Obviously, the job corps is another subject about which you know nothing.

Harry,
Have you noticed that you are the only person in rec.boats who knows
what they are talking about. SWS,Eisboch and everyone else in here is
dumb as dirt and right wing idiots who ignore all science.

The demise of a great boat...
 

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 24, 3:49�am, HK wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:21:17 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
The problem, at least here in CT, are the apprenticeship rules the
state adopted. �We have a top flight state tech school system and the
kids who go through the programs are motivated. �The problem with the
electrical/plumber programs comes after graduation. �Each licensed
plumber or electrician can only have one apprentice. �With dictated
pay scales and full benefits, plus mandated insurance costs, the
package costs the employer more than he can afford for each
apprentice. �So for independant electricians/plumbers are in a losing
proposition even if they want to take on apprentices. �Add in the time
required, even with school credits, to make Journeyman status and they
flat out can't afford it.
That is the "union problem".
They are like the medical establishment. They go out of their way to
limit the number of people in the business.
Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations. I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

When the building boom was in full swing, maybe 12-18 months ago, the
carpenter's union was running advertisements trying to entice young
people to sign up for the apprenticeship program. They represented
that journeyman carpenters could earn a wage "consistent with most
college graduates", and regardless of the area of the country one
lives in and whatever the level of prevailing wages, that's probably
true. It should be. A guy who can frame a house has a lot more
economic value, IMO, than somebody who understands all the history and
nuances of 17th Century French oil painting. (I must be a barbarian.)


The carpenters' union is pretty progressive and aggressive, two
attributes I admire in trade unions. It also works hard to expand its
turf into areas that either haven't been organized, or are loosely
organized by other unions.

Most people don't realize that even in the best of times, commercial
construction workers have periods of unemployment because of the
vagaries of the market. That's one of the reasons why their hourly rate
seems so high. They usually don't get the 50 weeks of work that other
working Americans "enjoy."

The demise of a great boat...
 

"HK" wrote in message
. ..


Most people don't realize that even in the best of times, commercial
construction workers have periods of unemployment because of the vagaries
of the market. That's one of the reasons why their hourly rate seems so
high. They usually don't get the 50 weeks of work that other working
Americans "enjoy."

Good point, and one I admit that I have not considered. However ....
don't union members get some sort of pay and benefits even when they are "in
between" jobs?

Eisboch

The demise of a great boat...
 

Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
HK wrote:
BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the
Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

Employers, students, the labor dept, and hopefully the Unions
themselves have been very disappointed with the effectiveness of
the Job Corp to provide proper training or job placement for grads.


You really are an ignorant a**hole, Reggie. In the construction
trades, the purpose of the job corps is to provide unskilled,
undisciplined kids with a few decent life skills and preliminary job
skills so they know the importance of showing up for work on time,
sober, and with an attitude conducive to work. The job corps
provides pre-apprenticeship training, and a bit of a taste of the
sort of skills they'll be learning.

Do you actually know anything about anything, or is your knowledge
base built entirely upon what you google?

One summer working at McDonald's or Burger King will teach than those
basic job skills.


Is that how you got into the marines?

Obviously, the job corps is another subject about which you know nothing.

Harry,
Have you noticed that you are the only person in rec.boats who knows
what they are talking about. SWS,Eisboch and everyone else in here is
dumb as dirt and right wing idiots who ignore all science.



I doubt SWS, Eisboch, or you have ever had any significant direct
experience working with job corps instructors, programs, or students.
Three of my long-time union clients have been involved with various job
corps programs for decades, and I have been a frequent visitor to their
training schools, and have kept in touch over the years with a couple of
job corps grads who went on to complete a full union apprenticeship
program.

I've never referred to Eisboch or SWS as right-wing idiots or dumb as
dirt, nor have I entertained any thoughts at any time that they were.

I have referred to you, however, as a turd, and you are.