The demise of a great boat...
 

HK wrote:


Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations. I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.

Harry,
If the Union is able to provide a better product with increased
productivity and competitive prices as you say, why are they continuing
to lose market share?

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 06:49:29 -0500, HK wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:21:17 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

The problem, at least here in CT, are the apprenticeship rules the
state adopted. We have a top flight state tech school system and the
kids who go through the programs are motivated. The problem with the
electrical/plumber programs comes after graduation. Each licensed
plumber or electrician can only have one apprentice. With dictated
pay scales and full benefits, plus mandated insurance costs, the
package costs the employer more than he can afford for each
apprentice. So for independant electricians/plumbers are in a losing
proposition even if they want to take on apprentices. Add in the time
required, even with school credits, to make Journeyman status and they
flat out can't afford it.

That is the "union problem".
They are like the medical establishment. They go out of their way to
limit the number of people in the business.

Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations.

Which is no different than a trade school, except their time in
training is considered as apprenticeship time which means that they
have to complete OJT as an apprentice.

I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.

Are they paid while they are in Union training?

The whole point of apprenticeship is to pay your dues, learn your
trade and work under the direction of a Master tradesman.

Not jump immediately to Journeyman status.

The demise of a great boat...
 

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

Employers, students, the labor dept, and hopefully the Unions themselves
have been very disappointed with the effectiveness of the Job Corp to
provide proper training or job placement for grads.

The demise of a great boat...
 

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 06:49:29 -0500, HK wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:21:17 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

The problem, at least here in CT, are the apprenticeship rules the
state adopted. We have a top flight state tech school system and the
kids who go through the programs are motivated. The problem with the
electrical/plumber programs comes after graduation. Each licensed
plumber or electrician can only have one apprentice. With dictated
pay scales and full benefits, plus mandated insurance costs, the
package costs the employer more than he can afford for each
apprentice. So for independant electricians/plumbers are in a losing
proposition even if they want to take on apprentices. Add in the time
required, even with school credits, to make Journeyman status and they
flat out can't afford it.
That is the "union problem".
They are like the medical establishment. They go out of their way to
limit the number of people in the business.
Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations.

Which is no different than a trade school, except their time in
training is considered as apprenticeship time which means that they
have to complete OJT as an apprentice.

I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.

Are they paid while they are in Union training?

The whole point of apprenticeship is to pay your dues, learn your
trade and work under the direction of a Master tradesman.

Not jump immediately to Journeyman status.


If it takes three to five years to complete an apprenticeship program,
how is the graduate jumping immediately to journeyman status?

Of course they are paid while being trained. They are productive from
the end of the first week. The first week, typically, is spent on safety
training so when they get out to the jobsite as helpers, they are less
likely to get killed. On an electrical job, for example, new apprentices
usually are out on the job running wire, prepping wire, cleaning up. Do
you think they should not be paid for these activities?

I happen to know a lot about union apprenticeship programs in the
masonry, electrical and plumbing trades. None of the programs is aimed
at turning out low-end residential workers who build houses. That's for
the unskilled work force.

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 07:29:51 -0500, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

HK wrote:


Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations. I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.

If the Union is able to provide a better product with increased
productivity and competitive prices as you say, why are they continuing
to lose market share?

That's the point - they don't pay competitive wages. Unnion wages are
always higher by a factor of 25/30% higher than a similar gualified
wage earner.

Take Painters for example. A Union painter base is $26 an hour to a
max of $30 here in CT. Work rules are restrictive in terms of hours,
breaks and travel. I can hire an equally qualified non-Union painter
for less than $15 who will do the job in less time and, in my
experience, better.

I'll give you a work restriction example. When I was helping my
dealer at a boat show, the venue electricians were Union. We needed
to run a 6' extension cord from an outlet right behind the display to
a DVD player. We ran the extension cord, secured it behind the
display with 200 MPH tape to the concrete floor and hooked it up to
the DVD player.

NO NO NO. Had to have an electrician do that. So the electrician
came along and did exactly the same thing we did only it cost the
dealer $80 for five minutes work.

Unions have their place and I am not anti-Union. However they have
priced themselves out of the market place becoming a business just
like any other business.

In my lifetime, I have even seen Unions within Union organizations
strike Unions.

That kind of says it all.

The demise of a great boat...
 

Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

Employers, students, the labor dept, and hopefully the Unions themselves
have been very disappointed with the effectiveness of the Job Corp to
provide proper training or job placement for grads.


You really are an ignorant a**hole, Reggie. In the construction trades,
the purpose of the job corps is to provide unskilled, undisciplined kids
with a few decent life skills and preliminary job skills so they know
the importance of showing up for work on time, sober, and with an
attitude conducive to work. The job corps provides pre-apprenticeship
training, and a bit of a taste of the sort of skills they'll be learning.

Do you actually know anything about anything, or is your knowledge base
built entirely upon what you google?

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Nov 24, 7:54 am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 06:49:29 -0500, HK wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:21:17 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

The problem, at least here in CT, are the apprenticeship rules the
state adopted. We have a top flight state tech school system and the
kids who go through the programs are motivated. The problem with the
electrical/plumber programs comes after graduation. Each licensed
plumber or electrician can only have one apprentice. With dictated
pay scales and full benefits, plus mandated insurance costs, the
package costs the employer more than he can afford for each
apprentice. So for independant electricians/plumbers are in a losing
proposition even if they want to take on apprentices. Add in the time
required, even with school credits, to make Journeyman status and they
flat out can't afford it.

That is the "union problem".
They are like the medical establishment. They go out of their way to
limit the number of people in the business.

Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations.

Which is no different than a trade school, except their time in
training is considered as apprenticeship time which means that they
have to complete OJT as an apprentice.

I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.

Are they paid while they are in Union training?

The whole point of apprenticeship is to pay your dues, learn your
trade and work under the direction of a Master tradesman.

Not jump immediately to Journeyman status.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

All to learn to sweat a frekin' pipe and adjust a burner.. bunch of
crap. I hear it is worse elsewhere. In Fla they want you to go though
that to paint frekin' houses.. What, do you got to teach them how to
climb a ladder,or open a can? What's next, a licence to mow lawns, how
about a special school and tax to swim in your pool or lay on the
porch?

The demise of a great boat...
 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 06:49:29 -0500, HK wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:21:17 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

The problem, at least here in CT, are the apprenticeship rules the
state adopted. We have a top flight state tech school system and the
kids who go through the programs are motivated. The problem with the
electrical/plumber programs comes after graduation. Each licensed
plumber or electrician can only have one apprentice. With dictated
pay scales and full benefits, plus mandated insurance costs, the
package costs the employer more than he can afford for each
apprentice. So for independant electricians/plumbers are in a losing
proposition even if they want to take on apprentices. Add in the time
required, even with school credits, to make Journeyman status and they
flat out can't afford it.

That is the "union problem".
They are like the medical establishment. They go out of their way to
limit the number of people in the business.

Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations.

Which is no different than a trade school, except their time in
training is considered as apprenticeship time which means that they
have to complete OJT as an apprentice.

I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.

Are they paid while they are in Union training?

The whole point of apprenticeship is to pay your dues, learn your
trade and work under the direction of a Master tradesman.

Not jump immediately to Journeyman status.


My son-in-law recently got his Journeyman electrician's licence here in MA.
I think the process was OJT training for some number of hours (took years)
under the supervision of a licenced master electrician. He also went to
school nights for over a year at a trade school. Once he completed the
school, passed their exam and obtained the required OJT hours, he took the
state Journeyman exam and got his licence. He now has to obtain some number
of hours as a Journeyman before taking the Master exam.

He got many of the OJT hours working at my son's company under the
supervision of a Master electrician who heads up the electrical wiring shop.
He also did night and weekend jobs for a local contractor under the
supervision of their hired electricians.

He can now take jobs on his own as a Journeyman, but there's some weird rule
about putting his name on a work truck, should he decide to get one.
Something like he can put his last name on it but not his full name ... I
really don't understand it.

Nothing has blown up or burned down so far .....

Eisboch

The demise of a great boat...
 

HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

Employers, students, the labor dept, and hopefully the Unions
themselves have been very disappointed with the effectiveness of the
Job Corp to provide proper training or job placement for grads.


You really are an ignorant a**hole, Reggie. In the construction trades,
the purpose of the job corps is to provide unskilled, undisciplined kids
with a few decent life skills and preliminary job skills so they know
the importance of showing up for work on time, sober, and with an
attitude conducive to work. The job corps provides pre-apprenticeship
training, and a bit of a taste of the sort of skills they'll be learning.

Do you actually know anything about anything, or is your knowledge base
built entirely upon what you google?

Yes, I do have a very large knowledge base, thanks for asking. Why do
you find it necessary to use foul language whenever someone disagrees
with you. I pointed out that employers, students and the labor dept.
are not pleased with the results of the job corp and you go on a rabid
tirade. Are the Unions pleased with the results of the Job Corp?

The demise of a great boat...