The demise of a great boat...
 

Mrs. Wave and I traveled over to the new Bass Pro Shops in Foxboro
today at Patriot's Place.

Anyway, I was walking around while Mrs. Wave was purchasing her sale
goodies. Got a really close look at a Mako 26 CC and almost cried.

There wasn't a straight line on the boat. Run your hand along the
gunwale and all you felt were bumps. Look down the chine and you
could see where they filled in areas. The gel coat was awful - you
could see little swirls and obvious after the fact repairs.

Inside the boat, the same thing - look down the freeboard and there
wasn't a perfectly flat surface the entire length - you could actually
see the imperfections. Ran my hand down the side and you could feel
it. The rub rails were not correctly installed - you could see where
the screws holding the rail on were either incompletely installed or
at an angle - you could feel it. The T-Top had gaps between the
structure and the console - you could grab the top and actually shake
it indicating thin wall tubing. I looked inside the console and there
was wiring everywhere - the bundles weren't organized in any sense of
the word and generally left hanging.

It appeared endemic to the other Makos including the smaller bay boats
- all had blemished in the gel coat, straight lines seemed nonexistant
and the workmanship just gave the impression of being - well,
incomplete to be polite.

It kind of bummed me out. Compared to the Nitro bass boats that is.

Which is a whole 'nother story. Talk about cheaply built.

Anyway...

It's a great experience by the way - I really like the way the store
is set up. I'd like to spend some more time but it was really crowded
and I hate crowds. Didn't stop me from making some purchases though -
got a couple of new heavy boat rods (can't make them for that money)
and they have a great fly/do-it-yourself section.

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Nov 23, 3:23�pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
Mrs. Wave and I traveled over to the new Bass Pro Shops in Foxboro
today at Patriot's Place.

Anyway, I was walking around while Mrs. Wave was purchasing her sale
goodies. �Got a really close look at a Mako 26 CC and almost cried..

There wasn't a straight line on the boat. �Run your hand along the
gunwale and all you felt were bumps. �Look down the chine and you
could see where they filled in areas. �The gel coat was awful - you
could see little swirls and obvious after the fact repairs.

Inside the boat, the same thing - look down the freeboard and there
wasn't a perfectly flat surface the entire length - you could actually
see the imperfections. �Ran my hand down the side and you could feel
it. �The rub rails were not correctly installed - you could see where
the screws holding the rail on were either incompletely installed or
at an angle - you could feel it. �The T-Top had gaps between the
structure and the console - you could grab the top and actually shake
it indicating thin wall tubing. �I looked inside the console and there
was wiring everywhere - the bundles weren't organized in any sense of
the word and generally left hanging.

It appeared endemic to the other Makos including the smaller bay boats
- all had blemished in the gel coat, straight lines seemed nonexistant
and the workmanship just gave the impression of being - well,
incomplete to be polite.

It kind of bummed me out. �Compared to the Nitro bass boats that is.

Which is a whole 'nother story. �Talk about cheaply built.

Anyway...

It's a great experience by the way - I really like the way the store
is set up. �I'd like to spend some more time but it was really crowded
and I hate crowds. �Didn't stop me from making some purchases though -
got a couple of new heavy boat rods (can't make them for that money)
and they have a great fly/do-it-yourself section.

What this country needs is to stop assuming that everybody smart
enough to do so needs to go to college. There ought to be a first
class trade school and/or union apprenticeship program available to
people so they can learn to build and/or repair things properly. The
way the system works now, we teach the kids to look down on anybody
that doesn't have a "white collar" job, so some of the boat
manufacturers are forced to hire the dumb-as-a-post screwups, often of
dubious immigration status.

Decent plumbers and electricians can get plenty of work that will
never be sent "offshore", and a six-figure income is a realistic
possibility for a sharp, hard working individual.

Part of the problem is that some of the manufacturers seem afraid of
quality, or at least afraid of what it would do to their shares of the
market if people were asked to pay for good workmanship. And not just
boats.

One thing, though, that could be a possibilty: Isn't that a big chain
operation? Wonder if there isn't (at least unofficially) a "quick and
dirty" series slapped together to allow cheapie pricing? Or, possibly,
whether the retailer gets a screaming deal on all the reject layups?

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 15:37:52 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:


What this country needs is to stop assuming that everybody smart
enough to do so needs to go to college. There ought to be a first
class trade school and/or union apprenticeship program available to
people so they can learn to build and/or repair things properly. The
way the system works now, we teach the kids to look down on anybody
that doesn't have a "white collar" job, so some of the boat
manufacturers are forced to hire the dumb-as-a-post screwups, often of
dubious immigration status.

Decent plumbers and electricians can get plenty of work that will
never be sent "offshore", and a six-figure income is a realistic
possibility for a sharp, hard working individual.

I agree - totally.

The problem, at least here in CT, are the apprenticeship rules the
state adopted. We have a top flight state tech school system and the
kids who go through the programs are motivated. The problem with the
electrical/plumber programs comes after graduation. Each licensed
plumber or electrician can only have one apprentice. With dictated
pay scales and full benefits, plus mandated insurance costs, the
package costs the employer more than he can afford for each
apprentice. So for independant electricians/plumbers are in a losing
proposition even if they want to take on apprentices. Add in the time
required, even with school credits, to make Journeyman status and they
flat out can't afford it.

The bigger companies who can afford to take on apprentices for their
Masters are limited to one per Master. I've spoken to several Masters
who have told me their hands are tied and until the state loosens the
rules, the shortage is only going to get worse.

Part of the problem is that some of the manufacturers seem afraid of
quality, or at least afraid of what it would do to their shares of the
market if people were asked to pay for good workmanship. And not just
boats.

That makes sense to me.

One thing, though, that could be a possibilty: Isn't that a big chain
operation? Wonder if there isn't (at least unofficially) a "quick and
dirty" series slapped together to allow cheapie pricing? Or, possibly,
whether the retailer gets a screaming deal on all the reject layups?

Cheapie pricing? $90,000 for a 26 CC with a 250 Optimax isn't exactly
"cheap". I can add thirty thousand to that and buy Eisboch's Grand
Banks which is one hell of a boat.

Johnny Morris bought, in succession, Trophy and went to the well with
those boats degrading the over all quality. Then he bought Mako and
apparently did the same thing. If he follows form, the same thing
will happen to Seacraft.

Another example is Nitro. Outwardly, they seem to be well made.
However, compare weights and really look close - the carpet is cheap,
the boats are extremely light, vinyl is thin and you can scratch the
gell coat just by looking at it wrong.

In my opinion, they took a great boat line, went cheap on the
manufacturing, loosened up the quality control and rely on the once
great name to sell them.

I was always a fan of Mako - never owned one, but I know guys who have
them and was always impressed with form, fit and function - they were
really tough boats and nice looking. They had a true innovation with
the long forefoot and trailing deep vee which made them a real
performer in heavy water - even in the smaller boats. These boats
look like every other CC on the market, only worse in terms of
quality.

I was - well, not shocked certainly, but disappointed.

The demise of a great boat...
 

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 23, 3:23�pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
Mrs. Wave and I traveled over to the new Bass Pro Shops in Foxboro
today at Patriot's Place.

Anyway, I was walking around while Mrs. Wave was purchasing her sale
goodies. �Got a really close look at a Mako 26 CC and almost cried.

There wasn't a straight line on the boat. �Run your hand along the
gunwale and all you felt were bumps. �Look down the chine and you
could see where they filled in areas. �The gel coat was awful - you
could see little swirls and obvious after the fact repairs.

Inside the boat, the same thing - look down the freeboard and there
wasn't a perfectly flat surface the entire length - you could actually
see the imperfections. �Ran my hand down the side and you could feel
it. �The rub rails were not correctly installed - you could see where
the screws holding the rail on were either incompletely installed or
at an angle - you could feel it. �The T-Top had gaps between the
structure and the console - you could grab the top and actually shake
it indicating thin wall tubing. �I looked inside the console and there
was wiring everywhere - the bundles weren't organized in any sense of
the word and generally left hanging.

It appeared endemic to the other Makos including the smaller bay boats
- all had blemished in the gel coat, straight lines seemed nonexistant
and the workmanship just gave the impression of being - well,
incomplete to be polite.

It kind of bummed me out. �Compared to the Nitro bass boats that is.

Which is a whole 'nother story. �Talk about cheaply built.

Anyway...

It's a great experience by the way - I really like the way the store
is set up. �I'd like to spend some more time but it was really crowded
and I hate crowds. �Didn't stop me from making some purchases though -
got a couple of new heavy boat rods (can't make them for that money)
and they have a great fly/do-it-yourself section.

What this country needs is to stop assuming that everybody smart
enough to do so needs to go to college. There ought to be a first
class trade school and/or union apprenticeship program available to
people so they can learn to build and/or repair things properly. The
way the system works now, we teach the kids to look down on anybody
that doesn't have a "white collar" job, so some of the boat
manufacturers are forced to hire the dumb-as-a-post screwups, often of
dubious immigration status.

Decent plumbers and electricians can get plenty of work that will
never be sent "offshore", and a six-figure income is a realistic
possibility for a sharp, hard working individual.

Part of the problem is that some of the manufacturers seem afraid of
quality, or at least afraid of what it would do to their shares of the
market if people were asked to pay for good workmanship. And not just
boats.

One thing, though, that could be a possibilty: Isn't that a big chain
operation? Wonder if there isn't (at least unofficially) a "quick and
dirty" series slapped together to allow cheapie pricing? Or, possibly,
whether the retailer gets a screaming deal on all the reject layups?


It's part of the same company...the guy who owns BassPro owns Mako and
several other lines, including SeaCraft.

The demise of a great boat...
 

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 15:37:52 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:


What this country needs is to stop assuming that everybody smart
enough to do so needs to go to college. There ought to be a first
class trade school and/or union apprenticeship program available to
people so they can learn to build and/or repair things properly. The
way the system works now, we teach the kids to look down on anybody
that doesn't have a "white collar" job, so some of the boat
manufacturers are forced to hire the dumb-as-a-post screwups, often of
dubious immigration status.

Decent plumbers and electricians can get plenty of work that will
never be sent "offshore", and a six-figure income is a realistic
possibility for a sharp, hard working individual.

I agree - totally.

The problem, at least here in CT, are the apprenticeship rules the
state adopted. We have a top flight state tech school system and the
kids who go through the programs are motivated. The problem with the
electrical/plumber programs comes after graduation. Each licensed
plumber or electrician can only have one apprentice. With dictated
pay scales and full benefits, plus mandated insurance costs, the
package costs the employer more than he can afford for each
apprentice. So for independant electricians/plumbers are in a losing
proposition even if they want to take on apprentices. Add in the time
required, even with school credits, to make Journeyman status and they
flat out can't afford it.

The bigger companies who can afford to take on apprentices for their
Masters are limited to one per Master. I've spoken to several Masters
who have told me their hands are tied and until the state loosens the
rules, the shortage is only going to get worse.

Part of the problem is that some of the manufacturers seem afraid of
quality, or at least afraid of what it would do to their shares of the
market if people were asked to pay for good workmanship. And not just
boats.

That makes sense to me.

One thing, though, that could be a possibilty: Isn't that a big chain
operation? Wonder if there isn't (at least unofficially) a "quick and
dirty" series slapped together to allow cheapie pricing? Or, possibly,
whether the retailer gets a screaming deal on all the reject layups?

Cheapie pricing? $90,000 for a 26 CC with a 250 Optimax isn't exactly
"cheap". I can add thirty thousand to that and buy Eisboch's Grand
Banks which is one hell of a boat.

Johnny Morris bought, in succession, Trophy and went to the well with
those boats degrading the over all quality. Then he bought Mako and
apparently did the same thing. If he follows form, the same thing
will happen to Seacraft.

Another example is Nitro. Outwardly, they seem to be well made.
However, compare weights and really look close - the carpet is cheap,
the boats are extremely light, vinyl is thin and you can scratch the
gell coat just by looking at it wrong.

In my opinion, they took a great boat line, went cheap on the
manufacturing, loosened up the quality control and rely on the once
great name to sell them.

I was always a fan of Mako - never owned one, but I know guys who have
them and was always impressed with form, fit and function - they were
really tough boats and nice looking. They had a true innovation with
the long forefoot and trailing deep vee which made them a real
performer in heavy water - even in the smaller boats. These boats
look like every other CC on the market, only worse in terms of
quality.

I was - well, not shocked certainly, but disappointed.

Their prices are even more alarming. Then walk over to the SeaCraft
boats. 25% more for...nothing.

-dk

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Nov 23, 4:21�pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:


Cheapie pricing? �$90,000 for a 26 CC with a 250 Optimax isn't exactly
"cheap". �I can add thirty thousand to that and buy Eisboch's Grand
Banks which is one hell of a boat.


Isn't that his wife's 36-footer? He's only asking $120k? Is it a
woodie?
Even if, that might be cheap.

When the "buyer's market" goes into overdrive next spring, some
enterprising guy can probably make a good living hauling trawlers from
the east coast (where they are underappreciated) up to the NW. He
could backhaul sportfishers, for the same reason.

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Nov 23, 5:37�pm, Chuck Gould

Or, possibly,
whether the retailer gets a screaming deal on all the reject layups?- -


That's what I was wondering...

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Nov 23, 6:21�pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:


Johnny Morris bought, in succession, Trophy and went to the well with
those boats degrading the over all quality. ...

In my opinion, they took a great boat line, went cheap on the
manufacturing, loosened up the quality control and rely on the once
great name to sell them.


Seen that done many times. Especially witht he british automotive
industries. British Leyland bought out the traditional companies.,,
MG, Triumph, BSA, Norton, Austin , etc. Some how Land rover survived.
Why? Lord knows. ... Leyand robbed them of what little capital they
had, gave them nothing to work with, let alone compete, let their
facilities run down worse, right along with their tooling and
assembly techiniqes, and eventually tanked 'em all.

Did you here the one about the guy that bought a brand new Land Rover
and it didn't leak any oil so he kept complaining to the dealership
until they finally fixed the problem before the warrenty ran out????

The demise of a great boat...
 

"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
...
On Nov 23, 4:21?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:


Cheapie pricing? ?$90,000 for a 26 CC with a 250 Optimax isn't exactly
"cheap". ?I can add thirty thousand to that and buy Eisboch's Grand
Banks which is one hell of a boat.


---------------------------------------------------------

Isn't that his wife's 36-footer? He's only asking $120k? Is it a
woodie?
Even if, that might be cheap.

When the "buyer's market" goes into overdrive next spring, some
enterprising guy can probably make a good living hauling trawlers from
the east coast (where they are underappreciated) up to the NW. He
could backhaul sportfishers, for the same reason.

---------------------------------------------------------


Two boat brokers here in New England have told me of thier observations of
the general local market. Boat sales are slow and those that *are* selling
are usually to someone out of state.

We actually had someone from your neck of the woods considering the
Navigator. Apparently my asking price plus the estimated cost to ship from
the east coast to west coast was still less than the current market value of
a similar Navigator on the west coast.
Last we knew they were getting shipping cost details, but I doubt we'll hear
from them again.

I am still going back and forth on this but, for now, the Navigator is
officially off the market. The cost to replace it is ridiculous and there's
nothing wrong with it or it's systems.

We'll try selling the GB again next spring. BTW ... it is not wood ... it's
glass. 1982 vintage.

Eisboch

The demise of a great boat...
 

The demise of a great boat...
 

HK wrote:


Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations. I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.

Harry,
If the Union is able to provide a better product with increased
productivity and competitive prices as you say, why are they continuing
to lose market share?

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 06:49:29 -0500, HK wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:21:17 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

The problem, at least here in CT, are the apprenticeship rules the
state adopted. We have a top flight state tech school system and the
kids who go through the programs are motivated. The problem with the
electrical/plumber programs comes after graduation. Each licensed
plumber or electrician can only have one apprentice. With dictated
pay scales and full benefits, plus mandated insurance costs, the
package costs the employer more than he can afford for each
apprentice. So for independant electricians/plumbers are in a losing
proposition even if they want to take on apprentices. Add in the time
required, even with school credits, to make Journeyman status and they
flat out can't afford it.

That is the "union problem".
They are like the medical establishment. They go out of their way to
limit the number of people in the business.

Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations.

Which is no different than a trade school, except their time in
training is considered as apprenticeship time which means that they
have to complete OJT as an apprentice.

I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.

Are they paid while they are in Union training?

The whole point of apprenticeship is to pay your dues, learn your
trade and work under the direction of a Master tradesman.

Not jump immediately to Journeyman status.

The demise of a great boat...
 

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

Employers, students, the labor dept, and hopefully the Unions themselves
have been very disappointed with the effectiveness of the Job Corp to
provide proper training or job placement for grads.

The demise of a great boat...
 

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 06:49:29 -0500, HK wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:21:17 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

The problem, at least here in CT, are the apprenticeship rules the
state adopted. We have a top flight state tech school system and the
kids who go through the programs are motivated. The problem with the
electrical/plumber programs comes after graduation. Each licensed
plumber or electrician can only have one apprentice. With dictated
pay scales and full benefits, plus mandated insurance costs, the
package costs the employer more than he can afford for each
apprentice. So for independant electricians/plumbers are in a losing
proposition even if they want to take on apprentices. Add in the time
required, even with school credits, to make Journeyman status and they
flat out can't afford it.
That is the "union problem".
They are like the medical establishment. They go out of their way to
limit the number of people in the business.
Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations.

Which is no different than a trade school, except their time in
training is considered as apprenticeship time which means that they
have to complete OJT as an apprentice.

I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.

Are they paid while they are in Union training?

The whole point of apprenticeship is to pay your dues, learn your
trade and work under the direction of a Master tradesman.

Not jump immediately to Journeyman status.


If it takes three to five years to complete an apprenticeship program,
how is the graduate jumping immediately to journeyman status?

Of course they are paid while being trained. They are productive from
the end of the first week. The first week, typically, is spent on safety
training so when they get out to the jobsite as helpers, they are less
likely to get killed. On an electrical job, for example, new apprentices
usually are out on the job running wire, prepping wire, cleaning up. Do
you think they should not be paid for these activities?

I happen to know a lot about union apprenticeship programs in the
masonry, electrical and plumbing trades. None of the programs is aimed
at turning out low-end residential workers who build houses. That's for
the unskilled work force.

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 07:29:51 -0500, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

HK wrote:


Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations. I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.

If the Union is able to provide a better product with increased
productivity and competitive prices as you say, why are they continuing
to lose market share?

That's the point - they don't pay competitive wages. Unnion wages are
always higher by a factor of 25/30% higher than a similar gualified
wage earner.

Take Painters for example. A Union painter base is $26 an hour to a
max of $30 here in CT. Work rules are restrictive in terms of hours,
breaks and travel. I can hire an equally qualified non-Union painter
for less than $15 who will do the job in less time and, in my
experience, better.

I'll give you a work restriction example. When I was helping my
dealer at a boat show, the venue electricians were Union. We needed
to run a 6' extension cord from an outlet right behind the display to
a DVD player. We ran the extension cord, secured it behind the
display with 200 MPH tape to the concrete floor and hooked it up to
the DVD player.

NO NO NO. Had to have an electrician do that. So the electrician
came along and did exactly the same thing we did only it cost the
dealer $80 for five minutes work.

Unions have their place and I am not anti-Union. However they have
priced themselves out of the market place becoming a business just
like any other business.

In my lifetime, I have even seen Unions within Union organizations
strike Unions.

That kind of says it all.

The demise of a great boat...
 

Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

Employers, students, the labor dept, and hopefully the Unions themselves
have been very disappointed with the effectiveness of the Job Corp to
provide proper training or job placement for grads.


You really are an ignorant a**hole, Reggie. In the construction trades,
the purpose of the job corps is to provide unskilled, undisciplined kids
with a few decent life skills and preliminary job skills so they know
the importance of showing up for work on time, sober, and with an
attitude conducive to work. The job corps provides pre-apprenticeship
training, and a bit of a taste of the sort of skills they'll be learning.

Do you actually know anything about anything, or is your knowledge base
built entirely upon what you google?

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Nov 24, 7:54 am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 06:49:29 -0500, HK wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:21:17 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

The problem, at least here in CT, are the apprenticeship rules the
state adopted. We have a top flight state tech school system and the
kids who go through the programs are motivated. The problem with the
electrical/plumber programs comes after graduation. Each licensed
plumber or electrician can only have one apprentice. With dictated
pay scales and full benefits, plus mandated insurance costs, the
package costs the employer more than he can afford for each
apprentice. So for independant electricians/plumbers are in a losing
proposition even if they want to take on apprentices. Add in the time
required, even with school credits, to make Journeyman status and they
flat out can't afford it.

That is the "union problem".
They are like the medical establishment. They go out of their way to
limit the number of people in the business.

Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations.

Which is no different than a trade school, except their time in
training is considered as apprenticeship time which means that they
have to complete OJT as an apprentice.

I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.

Are they paid while they are in Union training?

The whole point of apprenticeship is to pay your dues, learn your
trade and work under the direction of a Master tradesman.

Not jump immediately to Journeyman status.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

All to learn to sweat a frekin' pipe and adjust a burner.. bunch of
crap. I hear it is worse elsewhere. In Fla they want you to go though
that to paint frekin' houses.. What, do you got to teach them how to
climb a ladder,or open a can? What's next, a licence to mow lawns, how
about a special school and tax to swim in your pool or lay on the
porch?

The demise of a great boat...
 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 06:49:29 -0500, HK wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:21:17 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

The problem, at least here in CT, are the apprenticeship rules the
state adopted. We have a top flight state tech school system and the
kids who go through the programs are motivated. The problem with the
electrical/plumber programs comes after graduation. Each licensed
plumber or electrician can only have one apprentice. With dictated
pay scales and full benefits, plus mandated insurance costs, the
package costs the employer more than he can afford for each
apprentice. So for independant electricians/plumbers are in a losing
proposition even if they want to take on apprentices. Add in the time
required, even with school credits, to make Journeyman status and they
flat out can't afford it.

That is the "union problem".
They are like the medical establishment. They go out of their way to
limit the number of people in the business.

Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations.

Which is no different than a trade school, except their time in
training is considered as apprenticeship time which means that they
have to complete OJT as an apprentice.

I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.

Are they paid while they are in Union training?

The whole point of apprenticeship is to pay your dues, learn your
trade and work under the direction of a Master tradesman.

Not jump immediately to Journeyman status.


My son-in-law recently got his Journeyman electrician's licence here in MA.
I think the process was OJT training for some number of hours (took years)
under the supervision of a licenced master electrician. He also went to
school nights for over a year at a trade school. Once he completed the
school, passed their exam and obtained the required OJT hours, he took the
state Journeyman exam and got his licence. He now has to obtain some number
of hours as a Journeyman before taking the Master exam.

He got many of the OJT hours working at my son's company under the
supervision of a Master electrician who heads up the electrical wiring shop.
He also did night and weekend jobs for a local contractor under the
supervision of their hired electricians.

He can now take jobs on his own as a Journeyman, but there's some weird rule
about putting his name on a work truck, should he decide to get one.
Something like he can put his last name on it but not his full name ... I
really don't understand it.

Nothing has blown up or burned down so far .....

Eisboch

The demise of a great boat...
 

HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

Employers, students, the labor dept, and hopefully the Unions
themselves have been very disappointed with the effectiveness of the
Job Corp to provide proper training or job placement for grads.


You really are an ignorant a**hole, Reggie. In the construction trades,
the purpose of the job corps is to provide unskilled, undisciplined kids
with a few decent life skills and preliminary job skills so they know
the importance of showing up for work on time, sober, and with an
attitude conducive to work. The job corps provides pre-apprenticeship
training, and a bit of a taste of the sort of skills they'll be learning.

Do you actually know anything about anything, or is your knowledge base
built entirely upon what you google?

Yes, I do have a very large knowledge base, thanks for asking. Why do
you find it necessary to use foul language whenever someone disagrees
with you. I pointed out that employers, students and the labor dept.
are not pleased with the results of the job corp and you go on a rabid
tirade. Are the Unions pleased with the results of the Job Corp?

The demise of a great boat...
 

The demise of a great boat...
 

"HK" wrote in message
. ..


I happen to know a lot about union apprenticeship programs in the masonry,
electrical and plumbing trades. None of the programs is aimed at turning
out low-end residential workers who build houses. That's for the unskilled
work force.


Good grief Harry.

Sometimes I think you know more about deep frying turkeys.

Have you ever considered that your little slice of experience in the world
is exactly that .... a little slice?

Eisboch

The demise of a great boat...
 

Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

Employers, students, the labor dept, and hopefully the Unions
themselves have been very disappointed with the effectiveness of the
Job Corp to provide proper training or job placement for grads.


You really are an ignorant a**hole, Reggie. In the construction
trades, the purpose of the job corps is to provide unskilled,
undisciplined kids with a few decent life skills and preliminary job
skills so they know the importance of showing up for work on time,
sober, and with an attitude conducive to work. The job corps provides
pre-apprenticeship training, and a bit of a taste of the sort of
skills they'll be learning.

Do you actually know anything about anything, or is your knowledge
base built entirely upon what you google?

Yes, I do have a very large knowledge base, thanks for asking. Why do
you find it necessary to use foul language whenever someone disagrees
with you. I pointed out that employers, students and the labor dept.
are not pleased with the results of the job corp and you go on a rabid
tirade. Are the Unions pleased with the results of the Job Corp?






I don't know, Reggie. I don't "speak" for the unions. On the national
level, several training programs with which I have familiarity have few
problems with the apprentices they get out of the job corps pre-job
programs.

The "labor department" these days is a piece of Bush-admin crap, just
like everything else the Bush Admin has touched, and therefore its
opinions are not relevant.

The demise of a great boat...
 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...


I'll give you a work restriction example. When I was helping my
dealer at a boat show, the venue electricians were Union. We needed
to run a 6' extension cord from an outlet right behind the display to
a DVD player. We ran the extension cord, secured it behind the
display with 200 MPH tape to the concrete floor and hooked it up to
the DVD player.

NO NO NO. Had to have an electrician do that. So the electrician
came along and did exactly the same thing we did only it cost the
dealer $80 for five minutes work.


Having exhibited at trade shows and conferences for many years and having to
pay through the nose to have a union electrician plug in an extension cord
at our booth, I feel your pain.

Licenced union electricians are usually well trained, competent and
qualified.
Non-union licenced electricians are usually well trained, competent and
qualified.

What do "you" have in your wallet?

Eisboch

The demise of a great boat...
 

Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
. ..

I happen to know a lot about union apprenticeship programs in the masonry,
electrical and plumbing trades. None of the programs is aimed at turning
out low-end residential workers who build houses. That's for the unskilled
work force.


Good grief Harry.

Sometimes I think you know more about deep frying turkeys.

Have you ever considered that your little slice of experience in the world
is exactly that .... a little slice?

Eisboch




Residential "stick" house construction makes up a tiny percentage of
union construction work nationwide. There was a time when a significant
number of new houses in the Detroit, Chicago, and Cleveland markets were
union built and, to a much lesser degree, that was also true in certain
New England markets, but these days, unionized construction workers are
almost exclusively involved in commercial and multi-family units.

I know this because I regularly see the hours worked stats of several
international unions. The hours worked stats include local rates, and
there are very few "residential rates" hours in the mix. Stick-built
usually has a lower hourly rate.

Now, what is your point?

The demise of a great boat...
 

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...

Our youngsters (and country) have done an incredible disservice when
they were told that one either works with one's mind (smart) or works
with one's hands (dumb). The next topic I will rant about is the fact
that Industrial Arts is no longer taught (except, perhaps in name
only) in public schools (and so far as I know in ANY private
school).... I will then drift on to the fact that, in spite of having
made it through several "benchmark grades" and passed a "State
Competency Test," 65% of incoming community college students are not
prepared for school with respect to ability in Reading, Writing, and
Math.

Ohhhhhh.... don't get me started....


Gene, it's because in an age of spiraling costs and limited budgets, the
eggheads that have lived in the secure world of acedemia since graduating
from college are influencing and controlling the curriculums.

The rest of us are busy working.

It's almost comical if it was not so serious an issue.

Eisboch

The demise of a great boat...
 

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"HK" wrote in message
. ..


I happen to know a lot about union apprenticeship programs in the
masonry, electrical and plumbing trades. "sweat shops"

Good grief Harry.

Sometimes I think you know more about deep frying turkeys.

Have you ever considered that your little slice of experience in the world
is exactly that .... a little slice?

Eisboch


I take objection to the implication contained in your generalization, "None
of the programs is aimed at turning out low-end residential workers who
build houses. That's for the unskilled
work force".

Why do you find it necessary to fire low blows to anybody or group that does
not subscribe exactly to your POV. For a liberal, you seem very closed
minded sometimes.

Eisboch

The demise of a great boat...
 

Eisboch wrote:
"Eisboch" wrote in message
...
"HK" wrote in message
. ..

I happen to know a lot about union apprenticeship programs in the
masonry, electrical and plumbing trades. "sweat shops"
Good grief Harry.

Sometimes I think you know more about deep frying turkeys.

Have you ever considered that your little slice of experience in the world
is exactly that .... a little slice?

Eisboch


I take objection to the implication contained in your generalization, "None
of the programs is aimed at turning out low-end residential workers who
build houses. That's for the unskilled
work force".

Why do you find it necessary to fire low blows to anybody or group that does
not subscribe exactly to your POV. For a liberal, you seem very closed
minded sometimes.

Eisboch




It's not a generalization. The union apprenticeship programs are not
aimed at turning out workers who build subdivision houses, Eisboch.
Virtually all of that work is done non-union, for low wages, and
increasingly by undocumented piece work workers who for the most part
are untrained and marginally skilled.

The demise of a great boat...
 

"HK" wrote in message
. ..


It's not a generalization. The union apprenticeship programs are not aimed
at turning out workers who build subdivision houses, Eisboch. Virtually
all of that work is done non-union, for low wages, and increasingly by
undocumented piece work workers who for the most part are untrained and
marginally skilled.

There you go again, with the "for the most part are untrained and marginally
skilled".

We decided to install a pool. We hired an electrical contractor to do the
wiring. Happened to be non-union, but that really didn't matter in our
decision. We went with them because of good references and reputation.

The contractor pulls a permit to do the work.
He has both licenced and guys doing OJT do the work.
The contractor checks on their work and resolves any issues.
Being interested and nosey, I also observe their work.

The contractor calls the electrical inspector to check and sign off on the
work performed at various stages of construction. The electrical inspector,
who didn't know this particular contractor, is very impressed with the
quality of work.

Fill up the pool, turn it on ..... every works in a complex and safe
electrical system.

Now, according to you, this was all done by untrained and marginally skilled
people.

Final comment ....

I worked in industry for many years. I've have the opportunity to work with
both union and non union electricians in very large companys and at Ma and
Pa shops. I could tell stories about some "Union" electricians ... the most
famous being the "qualified" electrician, me and the head of the Omega Laser
system at the University of Rochester, but but I won't.


Eisboch

The demise of a great boat...
 

Eisboch wrote:
For a liberal, you seem very closed
minded sometimes.

Eisboch

Eisboch,
Is there a time when Harry is not closed minded?

The demise of a great boat...
 

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
...
On Nov 23, 4:21?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:


Cheapie pricing? ?$90,000 for a 26 CC with a 250 Optimax isn't exactly
"cheap". ?I can add thirty thousand to that and buy Eisboch's Grand
Banks which is one hell of a boat.


---------------------------------------------------------

Isn't that his wife's 36-footer? He's only asking $120k? Is it a
woodie?
Even if, that might be cheap.

When the "buyer's market" goes into overdrive next spring, some
enterprising guy can probably make a good living hauling trawlers from
the east coast (where they are underappreciated) up to the NW. He
could backhaul sportfishers, for the same reason.

---------------------------------------------------------


Two boat brokers here in New England have told me of thier observations of
the general local market. Boat sales are slow and those that *are*
selling are usually to someone out of state.

We actually had someone from your neck of the woods considering the
Navigator. Apparently my asking price plus the estimated cost to ship
from the east coast to west coast was still less than the current market
value of a similar Navigator on the west coast.
Last we knew they were getting shipping cost details, but I doubt we'll
hear from them again.

I am still going back and forth on this but, for now, the Navigator is
officially off the market. The cost to replace it is ridiculous and
there's nothing wrong with it or it's systems.

We'll try selling the GB again next spring. BTW ... it is not wood ...
it's glass. 1982 vintage.

Eisboch

We don't see a lot of trawler style boats up here, although they'd be
perfect for our cool damp climate.

The demise of a great boat...
 

HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

Employers, students, the labor dept, and hopefully the Unions
themselves have been very disappointed with the effectiveness of the
Job Corp to provide proper training or job placement for grads.


You really are an ignorant a**hole, Reggie. In the construction trades,
the purpose of the job corps is to provide unskilled, undisciplined kids
with a few decent life skills and preliminary job skills so they know
the importance of showing up for work on time, sober, and with an
attitude conducive to work. The job corps provides pre-apprenticeship
training, and a bit of a taste of the sort of skills they'll be learning.

Do you actually know anything about anything, or is your knowledge base
built entirely upon what you google?

One summer working at McDonald's or Burger King will teach than those
basic job skills.

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Nov 24, 12:27�am, "Eisboch" wrote:
"Chuck Gould" wrote in message

...
On Nov 23, 4:21?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:



Cheapie pricing? ?$90,000 for a 26 CC with a 250 Optimax isn't exactly
"cheap". ?I can add thirty thousand to that and buy Eisboch's Grand
Banks which is one hell of a boat.

---------------------------------------------------------

Isn't that his wife's 36-footer? He's only asking $120k? Is it a
woodie?
Even if, that might be cheap.

When the "buyer's market" goes into overdrive next spring, some
enterprising guy can probably make a good living hauling trawlers from
the east coast (where they are underappreciated) up to the NW. He
could backhaul sportfishers, for the same reason.

---------------------------------------------------------

Two boat brokers here in New England have told me of thier observations of
the general local market. �Boat sales are slow and those that *are* selling
are usually to someone out of state.

We actually had someone from your neck of the woods considering the
Navigator. �Apparently my asking price plus the estimated cost to ship from
the east coast to west coast was still less than the current market value of
a similar Navigator on the west coast.
Last we knew they were getting shipping cost details, but I doubt we'll hear
from them again.

I am still going back and forth on this but, for now, the Navigator is
officially off the market. �The cost to replace it is ridiculous and there's
nothing wrong with it or it's systems.

We'll try selling the GB again next spring. �BTW ... it is not wood ... it's
glass. �1982 vintage.

Eisboch

There are three 36 -foot glass GB's listed on Yachtworld in the
Pacific NW, 1980-1984. (It's ok to look at a range of years on most
boats, and the older the boat, the wider the range. Probably could
have done 78-86...)

One of them has a "sale pending", and the asking price was $169k.
Another is on the market for just under $160k, and the third is up in
BC- represented as "the finest example of a 36 Classic we have ever
listed" and they're asking $203k US.

At $120k, your boat could very easily sell to somebody from the W
Coast. My guess is that it could be trucked out for about
$20,000...but it's been a while since I've been involved with
transporting a boat and costs may be up more than I realize. Should be
able to use a 40-foot trailer, and with the flybridge cowling removed
it *might* clear a majority of the overpasses...can't say for sure.

The W Coast market is pretty active starting in January, when we hold
our big boat show. Waiting until spring, you will enjoy the seasonal
uptick in the general market but this year you run the risk of the
general economic climate getting a bit gloomier as the months go by.
When things slow down to a crawl, the desperate folks who *must* sell,
under any circumstance, will pull the market value down on all boats.

If you'd like to get some phone calls about your GB from the W coast,
send me an email. I have a way to make that happen for you.

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Nov 24, 3:49�am, HK wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:21:17 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

The problem, at least here in CT, are the apprenticeship rules the
state adopted. �We have a top flight state tech school system and the
kids who go through the programs are motivated. �The problem with the
electrical/plumber programs comes after graduation. �Each licensed
plumber or electrician can only have one apprentice. �With dictated
pay scales and full benefits, plus mandated insurance costs, the
package costs the employer more than he can afford for each
apprentice. �So for independant electricians/plumbers are in a losing
proposition even if they want to take on apprentices. �Add in the time
required, even with school credits, to make Journeyman status and they
flat out can't afford it.

That is the "union problem".
They are like the medical establishment. They go out of their way to
limit the number of people in the business.

Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations. I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

When the building boom was in full swing, maybe 12-18 months ago, the
carpenter's union was running advertisements trying to entice young
people to sign up for the apprenticeship program. They represented
that journeyman carpenters could earn a wage "consistent with most
college graduates", and regardless of the area of the country one
lives in and whatever the level of prevailing wages, that's probably
true. It should be. A guy who can frame a house has a lot more
economic value, IMO, than somebody who understands all the history and
nuances of 17th Century French oil painting. (I must be a barbarian.)

The demise of a great boat...
 

BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

Employers, students, the labor dept, and hopefully the Unions
themselves have been very disappointed with the effectiveness of the
Job Corp to provide proper training or job placement for grads.


You really are an ignorant a**hole, Reggie. In the construction
trades, the purpose of the job corps is to provide unskilled,
undisciplined kids with a few decent life skills and preliminary job
skills so they know the importance of showing up for work on time,
sober, and with an attitude conducive to work. The job corps provides
pre-apprenticeship training, and a bit of a taste of the sort of
skills they'll be learning.

Do you actually know anything about anything, or is your knowledge
base built entirely upon what you google?

One summer working at McDonald's or Burger King will teach than those
basic job skills.


Is that how you got into the marines?

Obviously, the job corps is another subject about which you know nothing.

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Nov 24, 5:04�am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
That's the point - they don't pay competitive wages. Unnion wages are
always higher by a factor of 25/30% higher than a similar gualified
wage earner.

Take Painters for example. �A Union painter base is $26 an hour to a
max of $30 here in CT. �Work rules are restrictive in terms of hours,
breaks and travel. �I can hire an equally qualified non-Union painter
for less than $15 who will do the job in less time and, in my
experience, better.


Pero usted debe decir el espa�ol para dirigirse una persona
complaciente a trabajar para quince d�lares por hora :-)

The demise of a great boat...
 

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...


I'll give you a work restriction example. When I was helping my
dealer at a boat show, the venue electricians were Union. We needed
to run a 6' extension cord from an outlet right behind the display to
a DVD player. We ran the extension cord, secured it behind the
display with 200 MPH tape to the concrete floor and hooked it up to
the DVD player.

NO NO NO. Had to have an electrician do that. So the electrician
came along and did exactly the same thing we did only it cost the
dealer $80 for five minutes work.


Having exhibited at trade shows and conferences for many years and having
to pay through the nose to have a union electrician plug in an extension
cord at our booth, I feel your pain.

Licenced union electricians are usually well trained, competent and
qualified.
Non-union licenced electricians are usually well trained, competent and
qualified.

What do "you" have in your wallet?

Eisboch

And how much stuff was stolen from the exhibits?

The demise of a great boat...
 

HK wrote:
BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

Employers, students, the labor dept, and hopefully the Unions
themselves have been very disappointed with the effectiveness of the
Job Corp to provide proper training or job placement for grads.


You really are an ignorant a**hole, Reggie. In the construction
trades, the purpose of the job corps is to provide unskilled,
undisciplined kids with a few decent life skills and preliminary job
skills so they know the importance of showing up for work on time,
sober, and with an attitude conducive to work. The job corps provides
pre-apprenticeship training, and a bit of a taste of the sort of
skills they'll be learning.

Do you actually know anything about anything, or is your knowledge
base built entirely upon what you google?

One summer working at McDonald's or Burger King will teach than those
basic job skills.


Is that how you got into the marines?

Obviously, the job corps is another subject about which you know nothing.

Harry,
Have you noticed that you are the only person in rec.boats who knows
what they are talking about. SWS,Eisboch and everyone else in here is
dumb as dirt and right wing idiots who ignore all science.

The demise of a great boat...
 

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 24, 3:49�am, HK wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:21:17 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
The problem, at least here in CT, are the apprenticeship rules the
state adopted. �We have a top flight state tech school system and the
kids who go through the programs are motivated. �The problem with the
electrical/plumber programs comes after graduation. �Each licensed
plumber or electrician can only have one apprentice. �With dictated
pay scales and full benefits, plus mandated insurance costs, the
package costs the employer more than he can afford for each
apprentice. �So for independant electricians/plumbers are in a losing
proposition even if they want to take on apprentices. �Add in the time
required, even with school credits, to make Journeyman status and they
flat out can't afford it.
That is the "union problem".
They are like the medical establishment. They go out of their way to
limit the number of people in the business.
Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations. I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

When the building boom was in full swing, maybe 12-18 months ago, the
carpenter's union was running advertisements trying to entice young
people to sign up for the apprenticeship program. They represented
that journeyman carpenters could earn a wage "consistent with most
college graduates", and regardless of the area of the country one
lives in and whatever the level of prevailing wages, that's probably
true. It should be. A guy who can frame a house has a lot more
economic value, IMO, than somebody who understands all the history and
nuances of 17th Century French oil painting. (I must be a barbarian.)


The carpenters' union is pretty progressive and aggressive, two
attributes I admire in trade unions. It also works hard to expand its
turf into areas that either haven't been organized, or are loosely
organized by other unions.

Most people don't realize that even in the best of times, commercial
construction workers have periods of unemployment because of the
vagaries of the market. That's one of the reasons why their hourly rate
seems so high. They usually don't get the 50 weeks of work that other
working Americans "enjoy."

The demise of a great boat...
 

"HK" wrote in message
. ..


Most people don't realize that even in the best of times, commercial
construction workers have periods of unemployment because of the vagaries
of the market. That's one of the reasons why their hourly rate seems so
high. They usually don't get the 50 weeks of work that other working
Americans "enjoy."

Good point, and one I admit that I have not considered. However ....
don't union members get some sort of pay and benefits even when they are "in
between" jobs?

Eisboch

The demise of a great boat...
 

Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
HK wrote:
BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the
Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

Employers, students, the labor dept, and hopefully the Unions
themselves have been very disappointed with the effectiveness of
the Job Corp to provide proper training or job placement for grads.


You really are an ignorant a**hole, Reggie. In the construction
trades, the purpose of the job corps is to provide unskilled,
undisciplined kids with a few decent life skills and preliminary job
skills so they know the importance of showing up for work on time,
sober, and with an attitude conducive to work. The job corps
provides pre-apprenticeship training, and a bit of a taste of the
sort of skills they'll be learning.

Do you actually know anything about anything, or is your knowledge
base built entirely upon what you google?

One summer working at McDonald's or Burger King will teach than those
basic job skills.


Is that how you got into the marines?

Obviously, the job corps is another subject about which you know nothing.

Harry,
Have you noticed that you are the only person in rec.boats who knows
what they are talking about. SWS,Eisboch and everyone else in here is
dumb as dirt and right wing idiots who ignore all science.



I doubt SWS, Eisboch, or you have ever had any significant direct
experience working with job corps instructors, programs, or students.
Three of my long-time union clients have been involved with various job
corps programs for decades, and I have been a frequent visitor to their
training schools, and have kept in touch over the years with a couple of
job corps grads who went on to complete a full union apprenticeship
program.

I've never referred to Eisboch or SWS as right-wing idiots or dumb as
dirt, nor have I entertained any thoughts at any time that they were.

I have referred to you, however, as a turd, and you are.