The demise of a great boat...
 

Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
. ..

Most people don't realize that even in the best of times, commercial
construction workers have periods of unemployment because of the vagaries
of the market. That's one of the reasons why their hourly rate seems so
high. They usually don't get the 50 weeks of work that other working
Americans "enjoy."

Good point, and one I admit that I have not considered. However ....
don't union members get some sort of pay and benefits even when they are "in
between" jobs?

Eisboch




Not in the construction union field, generally speaking. If they have
worked enough quarters, their health insurance might last until they
start working again. Most unionized construction workers average about
1200 work hours a year in typical times, a little more when times are
good. Weather plays a significant role in hours worked, too, especially
in the colder climes.

Now, in Florida, the hourly rates are significantly lower than up north,
because the weather is not an impediment.

The demise of a great boat...
 

HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
HK wrote:
BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the
Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage
and
real world conditions.

Employers, students, the labor dept, and hopefully the Unions
themselves have been very disappointed with the effectiveness of
the Job Corp to provide proper training or job placement for grads.


You really are an ignorant a**hole, Reggie. In the construction
trades, the purpose of the job corps is to provide unskilled,
undisciplined kids with a few decent life skills and preliminary
job skills so they know the importance of showing up for work on
time, sober, and with an attitude conducive to work. The job corps
provides pre-apprenticeship training, and a bit of a taste of the
sort of skills they'll be learning.

Do you actually know anything about anything, or is your knowledge
base built entirely upon what you google?

One summer working at McDonald's or Burger King will teach than
those basic job skills.


Is that how you got into the marines?

Obviously, the job corps is another subject about which you know
nothing.

Harry,
Have you noticed that you are the only person in rec.boats who knows
what they are talking about. SWS,Eisboch and everyone else in here is
dumb as dirt and right wing idiots who ignore all science.



I doubt SWS, Eisboch, or you have ever had any significant direct
experience working with job corps instructors, programs, or students.
Three of my long-time union clients have been involved with various job
corps programs for decades, and I have been a frequent visitor to their
training schools, and have kept in touch over the years with a couple of
job corps grads who went on to complete a full union apprenticeship
program.

I've never referred to Eisboch or SWS as right-wing idiots or dumb as
dirt, nor have I entertained any thoughts at any time that they were.

Didn't you say that Eisboch and SWS refused to listen to science and
only the right wing seem to do that?

The demise of a great boat...
 

Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
HK wrote:
BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the
Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both
wage and
real world conditions.

Employers, students, the labor dept, and hopefully the Unions
themselves have been very disappointed with the effectiveness of
the Job Corp to provide proper training or job placement for grads.


You really are an ignorant a**hole, Reggie. In the construction
trades, the purpose of the job corps is to provide unskilled,
undisciplined kids with a few decent life skills and preliminary
job skills so they know the importance of showing up for work on
time, sober, and with an attitude conducive to work. The job corps
provides pre-apprenticeship training, and a bit of a taste of the
sort of skills they'll be learning.

Do you actually know anything about anything, or is your knowledge
base built entirely upon what you google?

One summer working at McDonald's or Burger King will teach than
those basic job skills.


Is that how you got into the marines?

Obviously, the job corps is another subject about which you know
nothing.

Harry,
Have you noticed that you are the only person in rec.boats who knows
what they are talking about. SWS,Eisboch and everyone else in here
is dumb as dirt and right wing idiots who ignore all science.



I doubt SWS, Eisboch, or you have ever had any significant direct
experience working with job corps instructors, programs, or students.
Three of my long-time union clients have been involved with various
job corps programs for decades, and I have been a frequent visitor to
their training schools, and have kept in touch over the years with a
couple of job corps grads who went on to complete a full union
apprenticeship program.

I've never referred to Eisboch or SWS as right-wing idiots or dumb as
dirt, nor have I entertained any thoughts at any time that they were.

Didn't you say that Eisboch and SWS refused to listen to science and
only the right wing seem to do that?


No, Reggie, I never posted that. But I'm sure we all appreciate your
efforts at demonization, a**hole that you are.

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 07:54:50 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Nov 24, 5:04?am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
That's the point - they don't pay competitive wages. Unnion wages are
always higher by a factor of 25/30% higher than a similar gualified
wage earner.

Take Painters for example. ?A Union painter base is $26 an hour to a
max of $30 here in CT. ?Work rules are restrictive in terms of hours,
breaks and travel. ?I can hire an equally qualified non-Union painter
for less than $15 who will do the job in less time and, in my
experience, better.


Pero usted debe decir el espa?ol para dirigirse una persona
complaciente a trabajar para quince d?lares por hora :-)

Creb hfgrq qror qrpve ry rfcn?by cnen qvevtvefr han crefban
pbzcynpvragr n genonwne cnen dhvapr q?ynerf cbe uben :-)

The demise of a great boat...
 

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


Creb hfgrq qror qrpve ry rfcn?by cnen qvevtvefr han crefban
pbzcynpvragr n genonwne cnen dhvapr q?ynerf cbe uben :-)


"I shoulda bought a Yamaha..."

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 07:38:04 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

One of them has a "sale pending", and the asking price was $169k.
Another is on the market for just under $160k, and the third is up in
BC- represented as "the finest example of a 36 Classic we have ever
listed" and they're asking $203k US.

Hey!! Trying to ruin a good thing for me?

I was waiting until Feburary and try to low ball Eisboch. :)

Ok, not really. Not my thing.

But from the ground - whoo hoo - that is one sweet boat.

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 09:05:51 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

I worked in industry for many years. I've have the opportunity to work with
both union and non union electricians in very large companys and at Ma and
Pa shops. I could tell stories about some "Union" electricians ... the most
famous being the "qualified" electrician, me and the head of the Omega Laser
system at the University of Rochester, but but I won't.

Oh come on - I want to hear it.

I swap you my Union electrician story when we were building the new
shop for yours.

I'll bet it's just as funny. :)

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 15:24:29 -0500, HK wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


Creb hfgrq qror qrpve ry rfcn?by cnen qvevtvefr han crefban
pbzcynpvragr n genonwne cnen dhvapr q?ynerf cbe uben :-)

"I shoulda bought a Yamaha..."

Wow - must have used a Union translator.

It said "Yamaha sucks, ETECs rule."

Freakin Union contractors. :)

The demise of a great boat...
 

HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 24, 3:49�am, HK wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:21:17 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
The problem, at least here in CT, are the apprenticeship rules the
state adopted. �We have a top flight state tech school system and the
kids who go through the programs are motivated. �The problem with the
electrical/plumber programs comes after graduation. �Each licensed
plumber or electrician can only have one apprentice. �With dictated
pay scales and full benefits, plus mandated insurance costs, the
package costs the employer more than he can afford for each
apprentice. �So for independant electricians/plumbers are in a losing
proposition even if they want to take on apprentices. �Add in the time
required, even with school credits, to make Journeyman status and they
flat out can't afford it.
That is the "union problem".
They are like the medical establishment. They go out of their way to
limit the number of people in the business.
Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations. I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

When the building boom was in full swing, maybe 12-18 months ago, the
carpenter's union was running advertisements trying to entice young
people to sign up for the apprenticeship program. They represented
that journeyman carpenters could earn a wage "consistent with most
college graduates", and regardless of the area of the country one
lives in and whatever the level of prevailing wages, that's probably
true. It should be. A guy who can frame a house has a lot more
economic value, IMO, than somebody who understands all the history and
nuances of 17th Century French oil painting. (I must be a barbarian.)


The carpenters' union is pretty progressive and aggressive, two
attributes I admire in trade unions. It also works hard to expand its
turf into areas that either haven't been organized, or are loosely
organized by other unions.

Why does a union have to do organizing? Shouldn't people be running to
the unions breaking down the doors to join?

Most people don't realize that even in the best of times, commercial
construction workers have periods of unemployment because of the
vagaries of the market. That's one of the reasons why their hourly rate
seems so high. They usually don't get the 50 weeks of work that other
working Americans "enjoy."

Really, they sound like contract workers in the high tech field. They
usually get paid more due to the fact that they can only count on
working 10 months a year and they have to pay for the full 15.5% of
SS/Medicare.

The demise of a great boat...
 

HK wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
. ..

Most people don't realize that even in the best of times, commercial
construction workers have periods of unemployment because of the
vagaries of the market. That's one of the reasons why their hourly
rate seems so high. They usually don't get the 50 weeks of work that
other working Americans "enjoy."

Good point, and one I admit that I have not considered. However
.... don't union members get some sort of pay and benefits even when
they are "in between" jobs?

Eisboch



Not in the construction union field, generally speaking. If they have
worked enough quarters, their health insurance might last until they
start working again. Most unionized construction workers average about
1200 work hours a year in typical times, a little more when times are
good. Weather plays a significant role in hours worked, too, especially
in the colder climes.

Sounds like they need to get retail jobs for those rainy days.

Now, in Florida, the hourly rates are significantly lower than up north,
because the weather is not an impediment.

What about the cost of living? It is a hell of lot lower in Northern and
Mid Florida.

The demise of a great boat...
 

HK wrote:
BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

Employers, students, the labor dept, and hopefully the Unions
themselves have been very disappointed with the effectiveness of the
Job Corp to provide proper training or job placement for grads.


You really are an ignorant a**hole, Reggie. In the construction
trades, the purpose of the job corps is to provide unskilled,
undisciplined kids with a few decent life skills and preliminary job
skills so they know the importance of showing up for work on time,
sober, and with an attitude conducive to work. The job corps provides
pre-apprenticeship training, and a bit of a taste of the sort of
skills they'll be learning.

Do you actually know anything about anything, or is your knowledge
base built entirely upon what you google?

One summer working at McDonald's or Burger King will teach than those
basic job skills.


Is that how you got into the marines?

No I got into the Marines because I wanted to enlist.

Obviously, the job corps is another subject about which you know nothing.

I have never head anyone talk about what a great start in the working
world they received from the Job Corps. In fact other than you and The
Washington Post I never hear anything about the Job Corps.

The demise of a great boat...
 

HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
HK wrote:
BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that
the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both
wage and
real world conditions.

Employers, students, the labor dept, and hopefully the Unions
themselves have been very disappointed with the effectiveness of
the Job Corp to provide proper training or job placement for grads.


You really are an ignorant a**hole, Reggie. In the construction
trades, the purpose of the job corps is to provide unskilled,
undisciplined kids with a few decent life skills and preliminary
job skills so they know the importance of showing up for work on
time, sober, and with an attitude conducive to work. The job
corps provides pre-apprenticeship training, and a bit of a taste
of the sort of skills they'll be learning.

Do you actually know anything about anything, or is your
knowledge base built entirely upon what you google?

One summer working at McDonald's or Burger King will teach than
those basic job skills.


Is that how you got into the marines?

Obviously, the job corps is another subject about which you know
nothing.

Harry,
Have you noticed that you are the only person in rec.boats who knows
what they are talking about. SWS,Eisboch and everyone else in here
is dumb as dirt and right wing idiots who ignore all science.



I doubt SWS, Eisboch, or you have ever had any significant direct
experience working with job corps instructors, programs, or students.
Three of my long-time union clients have been involved with various
job corps programs for decades, and I have been a frequent visitor to
their training schools, and have kept in touch over the years with a
couple of job corps grads who went on to complete a full union
apprenticeship program.

I've never referred to Eisboch or SWS as right-wing idiots or dumb as
dirt, nor have I entertained any thoughts at any time that they were.

Didn't you say that Eisboch and SWS refused to listen to science and
only the right wing seem to do that?


No, Reggie, I never posted that. But I'm sure we all appreciate your
efforts at demonization, a**hole that you are.

Harry won't challenge either SWS or Eisboch, Harry knows he would loose.

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 17:35:08 -0500, BAR wrote:

HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
HK wrote:
BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that
the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both
wage and
real world conditions.

Employers, students, the labor dept, and hopefully the Unions
themselves have been very disappointed with the effectiveness of
the Job Corp to provide proper training or job placement for grads.


You really are an ignorant a**hole, Reggie. In the construction
trades, the purpose of the job corps is to provide unskilled,
undisciplined kids with a few decent life skills and preliminary
job skills so they know the importance of showing up for work on
time, sober, and with an attitude conducive to work. The job
corps provides pre-apprenticeship training, and a bit of a taste
of the sort of skills they'll be learning.

Do you actually know anything about anything, or is your
knowledge base built entirely upon what you google?

One summer working at McDonald's or Burger King will teach than
those basic job skills.


Is that how you got into the marines?

Obviously, the job corps is another subject about which you know
nothing.

Harry,
Have you noticed that you are the only person in rec.boats who knows
what they are talking about. SWS,Eisboch and everyone else in here
is dumb as dirt and right wing idiots who ignore all science.



I doubt SWS, Eisboch, or you have ever had any significant direct
experience working with job corps instructors, programs, or students.
Three of my long-time union clients have been involved with various
job corps programs for decades, and I have been a frequent visitor to
their training schools, and have kept in touch over the years with a
couple of job corps grads who went on to complete a full union
apprenticeship program.

I've never referred to Eisboch or SWS as right-wing idiots or dumb as
dirt, nor have I entertained any thoughts at any time that they were.

Didn't you say that Eisboch and SWS refused to listen to science and
only the right wing seem to do that?


No, Reggie, I never posted that. But I'm sure we all appreciate your
efforts at demonization, a**hole that you are.

Harry won't challenge either SWS or Eisboch, Harry knows he would loose.

Harry loses no matter who he challenges. SWS and Eisboch are patient souls.
--
John H

The demise of a great boat...
 

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 17:35:08 -0500, BAR wrote:

HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
HK wrote:
BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that
the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both
wage and
real world conditions.

Employers, students, the labor dept, and hopefully the Unions
themselves have been very disappointed with the effectiveness of
the Job Corp to provide proper training or job placement for
grads.


You really are an ignorant a**hole, Reggie. In the construction
trades, the purpose of the job corps is to provide unskilled,
undisciplined kids with a few decent life skills and preliminary
job skills so they know the importance of showing up for work on
time, sober, and with an attitude conducive to work. The job
corps provides pre-apprenticeship training, and a bit of a taste
of the sort of skills they'll be learning.

Do you actually know anything about anything, or is your
knowledge base built entirely upon what you google?

One summer working at McDonald's or Burger King will teach than
those basic job skills.


Is that how you got into the marines?

Obviously, the job corps is another subject about which you know
nothing.

Harry,
Have you noticed that you are the only person in rec.boats who knows
what they are talking about. SWS,Eisboch and everyone else in here
is dumb as dirt and right wing idiots who ignore all science.



I doubt SWS, Eisboch, or you have ever had any significant direct
experience working with job corps instructors, programs, or students.
Three of my long-time union clients have been involved with various
job corps programs for decades, and I have been a frequent visitor to
their training schools, and have kept in touch over the years with a
couple of job corps grads who went on to complete a full union
apprenticeship program.

I've never referred to Eisboch or SWS as right-wing idiots or dumb as
dirt, nor have I entertained any thoughts at any time that they were.

Didn't you say that Eisboch and SWS refused to listen to science and
only the right wing seem to do that?


No, Reggie, I never posted that. But I'm sure we all appreciate your
efforts at demonization, a**hole that you are.

Harry won't challenge either SWS or Eisboch, Harry knows he would loose.

Harry loses no matter who he challenges. SWS and Eisboch are patient
souls.
--
John H

Well well, I see you're back to your old 'facilliator' role...trying to stir
up trouble between peaceful members of this group.
John... you need more help than anyone in this newsgroup can offer. Go see
a professional before it's too late.

The demise of a great boat...
 

"BAR" wrote in message
...

Harry won't challenge either SWS or Eisboch, Harry knows he would loose.



Harry's loose again?

Eisboch

The demise of a great boat...
 

"BAR" wrote in message
...



Harry won't challenge either SWS or Eisboch, Harry knows he would loose.


I don't regard discussion of issues as a "challenge" or something to win or
lose. It's an exchange of views, sometimes heated, whereby your POV may
become modified or made more concrete.

I agree with him and others on many subjects and disagree with him and
others on other things.

I have the same relationship with many people, including myself sometimes.

If you engage in a discussion with the primary purpose of "winning" .... you
lose.

Eisboch

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:55:16 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"BAR" wrote in message
...



Harry won't challenge either SWS or Eisboch, Harry knows he would loose.


I don't regard discussion of issues as a "challenge" or something to win or
lose. It's an exchange of views, sometimes heated, whereby your POV may
become modified or made more concrete.

I agree with him and others on many subjects and disagree with him and
others on other things.

I have the same relationship with many people, including myself sometimes.

If you engage in a discussion with the primary purpose of "winning" .... you
lose.

Amen.

The demise of a great boat...
 

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:55:16 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

"BAR" wrote in message
...


Harry won't challenge either SWS or Eisboch, Harry knows he would loose.

I don't regard discussion of issues as a "challenge" or something to win or
lose. It's an exchange of views, sometimes heated, whereby your POV may
become modified or made more concrete.

I agree with him and others on many subjects and disagree with him and
others on other things.

I have the same relationship with many people, including myself sometimes.

If you engage in a discussion with the primary purpose of "winning" .... you
lose.

Amen.


I hear your transom sags more than mine.

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:08:16 -0500, HK wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:55:16 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

"BAR" wrote in message
...


Harry won't challenge either SWS or Eisboch, Harry knows he would loose.

I don't regard discussion of issues as a "challenge" or something to win or
lose. It's an exchange of views, sometimes heated, whereby your POV may
become modified or made more concrete.

I agree with him and others on many subjects and disagree with him and
others on other things.

I have the same relationship with many people, including myself sometimes.

If you engage in a discussion with the primary purpose of "winning" .... you
lose.

Amen.

I hear your transom sags more than mine.

My transom doesn't sag.

It's artfully arranged.

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Nov 24, 7:04 am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 07:29:51 -0500, "Reginald P. Smithers III"





wrote:
HK wrote:

Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations. I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.

If the Union is able to provide a better product with increased
productivity and competitive prices as you say, why are they continuing
to lose market share?

That's the point - they don't pay competitive wages. Unnion wages are
always higher by a factor of 25/30% higher than a similar gualified
wage earner.

Take Painters for example. A Union painter base is $26 an hour to a
max of $30 here in CT. Work rules are restrictive in terms of hours,
breaks and travel. I can hire an equally qualified non-Union painter
for less than $15 who will do the job in less time and, in my
experience, better.

I'll give you a work restriction example. When I was helping my
dealer at a boat show, the venue electricians were Union. We needed
to run a 6' extension cord from an outlet right behind the display to
a DVD player. We ran the extension cord, secured it behind the
display with 200 MPH tape to the concrete floor and hooked it up to
the DVD player.

NO NO NO. Had to have an electrician do that. So the electrician
came along and did exactly the same thing we did only it cost the
dealer $80 for five minutes work.

Unions have their place and I am not anti-Union. However they have
priced themselves out of the market place becoming a business just
like any other business.

In my lifetime, I have even seen Unions within Union organizations
strike Unions.

That kind of says it all.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -



A friend of mine was working a booth for his regulator company at a
rather large Auto-electric show in a stadiums convention center. There
was power to all the booths, and the ownder of the company was
providing cpmplimentery coffee and donuts. About an hour after opening
up the display, some guy came over and was a real hot head, and
started to confiscate the coffee machine and the donut boxs. After
some rather loud words, the guy grabbing the goods exploded with the
idea that there would be no more of that because the concessions were
union and they SELL the same thing at the kitchens. Words got hotter,
and the union dude took the coffe pot and boxs and threw them in a
close by dumpster. The company president that had the booth, called
the cops and pressed formal charges on the guy for tresspassing,
theft, and destruction of personal property, and probably some more
stuff as well. After doing the routine and questioning the union guy,
the guy got louder and beligerant . They walked the union dude out in
handcuffs. I really don't rememeber the total outcome of the big
picture, but the Company owner/CEO was rich enough, he would tie this
guy up in court for "as long as it takes". I do know that one
arguement that was allowed in court was that the Pres/ceo had PAID to
rent the space, and that it was his to do with what ever he pleased,
just like renting a house and that this arguement was upheld by the
court. And seeing the convention center had no fine print in the
rental contract about ofering complimentary food items, the union dude
was found guilty of the above charges, and had to make restitution. I
don't know if he personally paid for the damages or if the Union did
and I suppose it doesn't matter. But my point is that if they guy had
simply asked the CEO not to hand out the free goodies, I'm sure he
would have graciously complied, and there wouldn't have been a rukus.
But hwne you start shoving your weight around, somebody will
eventually shove back, and shove harder.

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 22:50:17 -0500, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 23:23:42 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing penned the
following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

Mrs. Wave and I traveled over to the new Bass Pro Shops in Foxboro
today at Patriot's Place.

Anyway, I was walking around while Mrs. Wave was purchasing her sale
goodies. Got a really close look at a Mako 26 CC and almost cried.


Odd... after boating the morning and most of the afternoon..... my son
and I hit the Bass Pro Shop in Myrtle Beach.

Two Makos looked great..... all of the others had blemishes just as
you described....

None of the boats at the Foxboro store were what I would call
"showroom". It was unbelievable.

The sad thing is that they have also changed the hull design
significantly. The long forefoot is gone as is the distinctive bow
rake. The stern is now somewhat rounded instead of that great squared
off look the the tilt sternwards.

Unfortunate.

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 01:05:10 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:55:16 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"BAR" wrote in message
...



Harry won't challenge either SWS or Eisboch, Harry knows he would loose.


I don't regard discussion of issues as a "challenge" or something to win or
lose. It's an exchange of views, sometimes heated, whereby your POV may
become modified or made more concrete.

I agree with him and others on many subjects and disagree with him and
others on other things.

I have the same relationship with many people, including myself sometimes.

If you engage in a discussion with the primary purpose of "winning" .... you
lose.

Amen.

It might help that he doesn't call you guys names with every other post.
--
John H

The demise of a great boat...
 

John H. wrote:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 01:05:10 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:55:16 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

"BAR" wrote in message
...


Harry won't challenge either SWS or Eisboch, Harry knows he would loose.

I don't regard discussion of issues as a "challenge" or something to win or
lose. It's an exchange of views, sometimes heated, whereby your POV may
become modified or made more concrete.

I agree with him and others on many subjects and disagree with him and
others on other things.

I have the same relationship with many people, including myself sometimes.

If you engage in a discussion with the primary purpose of "winning" .... you
lose.
Amen.

It might help that he doesn't call you guys names with every other post.


Why would I refer to SW or Eisboch as a**holes? They aren't. You are.
Further, they contribute a lot to this forum. You don't.

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 08:28:47 -0500, HK wrote:

John H. wrote:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 01:05:10 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:55:16 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

"BAR" wrote in message
...


Harry won't challenge either SWS or Eisboch, Harry knows he would loose.

I don't regard discussion of issues as a "challenge" or something to win or
lose. It's an exchange of views, sometimes heated, whereby your POV may
become modified or made more concrete.

I agree with him and others on many subjects and disagree with him and
others on other things.

I have the same relationship with many people, including myself sometimes.

If you engage in a discussion with the primary purpose of "winning" .... you
lose.
Amen.

It might help that he doesn't call you guys names with every other post.


Why would I refer to SW or Eisboch as a**holes? They aren't. You are.
Further, they contribute a lot to this forum. You don't.

Harry, I wasn't even thinking of me. You've not called me an asshole for a
long time. In fact, you've been downright amicable, except when I don't
agree with your position, of course. But even then, you've not stooped to
the asshole routine.
--
John H

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 08:51:52 -0500, John H. wrote:

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 08:28:47 -0500, HK wrote:

John H. wrote:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 01:05:10 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:55:16 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

"BAR" wrote in message
...


Harry won't challenge either SWS or Eisboch, Harry knows he would loose.

I don't regard discussion of issues as a "challenge" or something to win or
lose. It's an exchange of views, sometimes heated, whereby your POV may
become modified or made more concrete.

I agree with him and others on many subjects and disagree with him and
others on other things.

I have the same relationship with many people, including myself sometimes.

If you engage in a discussion with the primary purpose of "winning" .... you
lose.
Amen.

It might help that he doesn't call you guys names with every other post.


Why would I refer to SW or Eisboch as a**holes? They aren't. You are.
Further, they contribute a lot to this forum. You don't.

Harry, I wasn't even thinking of me. You've not called me an asshole for a
long time. In fact, you've been downright amicable, except when I don't
agree with your position, of course. But even then, you've not stooped to
the asshole routine.

Besides, I think my comments about Norway were just as contributory as your
and theirs.
--
John H

The demise of a great boat...
 

"HK" wrote in message
. ..


The "labor department" these days is a piece of Bush-admin crap, just like
everything else the Bush Admin has touched, and therefore its opinions are
not relevant.

You're just ****ed they caught Ullico with their hands in the cookie jar.

The demise of a great boat...
 

BillP wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
. ..

The "labor department" these days is a piece of Bush-admin crap, just like
everything else the Bush Admin has touched, and therefore its opinions are
not relevant.

You're just ****ed they caught Ullico with their hands in the cookie jar.






Bill, try to work this through your pea-brain.
My consulting contract with ULLICO ended more than three and a half
years ago. I helped out with a transition, and when it was over, I moved
on. Got it? DO you have enough working synapses to parse that?

The fact remains, everything in government the Bush Admin controls is a
piece of crap.

The demise of a great boat...
 

HK wrote:
John H. wrote:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 01:05:10 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:55:16 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

"BAR" wrote in message
...


Harry won't challenge either SWS or Eisboch, Harry knows he would
loose.

I don't regard discussion of issues as a "challenge" or something to
win or lose. It's an exchange of views, sometimes heated, whereby
your POV may become modified or made more concrete.

I agree with him and others on many subjects and disagree with him
and others on other things.

I have the same relationship with many people, including myself
sometimes.

If you engage in a discussion with the primary purpose of "winning"
.... you lose.
Amen.

It might help that he doesn't call you guys names with every other post.


Why would I refer to SW or Eisboch as a**holes? They aren't. You are.
Further, they contribute a lot to this forum. You don't.

You are a laugh a minute.

The demise of a great boat...
 

HK wrote:
BillP wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
. ..

The "labor department" these days is a piece of Bush-admin crap, just
like everything else the Bush Admin has touched, and therefore its
opinions are not relevant.

You're just ****ed they caught Ullico with their hands in the cookie jar.






Bill, try to work this through your pea-brain.
My consulting contract with ULLICO ended more than three and a half
years ago. I helped out with a transition, and when it was over, I moved
on. Got it? DO you have enough working synapses to parse that?

The fact remains, everything in government the Bush Admin controls is a
piece of crap.


Bush controls everything except Congress and the Judiciary, therefore
anything in the executive branch is a "piece of crap?" What happens if
a Democrat is sworn into the office of the president on Jan 20th 2009?
Does everything in the executive branch suddenly turn to roses or does
it take years and years to unseat all of those Bush people?

Grow up Krause.

The demise of a great boat...
 

On Nov 23, 9:41 pm, wrote:

.. Plumbers are usually headbanger American kids with studs in their
face and tattoos. They may just like the smell of the PVC cement.


LOL!

The demise of a great boat...
 

HK wrote:
BillP wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
. ..

The "labor department" these days is a piece of Bush-admin crap, just
like everything else the Bush Admin has touched, and therefore its
opinions are not relevant.

You're just ****ed they caught Ullico with their hands in the cookie jar.






Bill, try to work this through your pea-brain.
My consulting contract with ULLICO ended more than three and a half
years ago. I helped out with a transition, and when it was over, I moved
on. Got it? DO you have enough working synapses to parse that?

The fact remains, everything in government the Bush Admin controls is a
piece of crap.


Since you left them, what are you doing now? I own a business. Let's
start with that...

-dk

The demise of a great boat...
 

BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
BillP wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
. ..

The "labor department" these days is a piece of Bush-admin crap,
just like everything else the Bush Admin has touched, and therefore
its opinions are not relevant.

You're just ****ed they caught Ullico with their hands in the cookie
jar.






Bill, try to work this through your pea-brain.
My consulting contract with ULLICO ended more than three and a half
years ago. I helped out with a transition, and when it was over, I
moved on. Got it? DO you have enough working synapses to parse that?

The fact remains, everything in government the Bush Admin controls is
a piece of crap.


Bush controls everything except Congress and the Judiciary, therefore
anything in the executive branch is a "piece of crap?" What happens if
a Democrat is sworn into the office of the president on Jan 20th 2009?
Does everything in the executive branch suddenly turn to roses or does
it take years and years to unseat all of those Bush people?

Grow up Krause.

Well said but it will fall of deaf ears.

-dk