On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:29:19 -0400, "Robert"
wrote:

cheap shot..............

Maybe, maybe not. Speaking of predictions, I predicted we'd be going
to Africa next.

Liberia really looks like a messy place.

~Empress

"`Tu'n me loose, fo' I kick de natal stuffin' outen you,' sez Brer
Rabbit, sezee, but de Tar-Baby, she ain't sayin' nuthin' "
~Empress

On 11 Jul 2003 17:08:57 GMT, Ignoramus11972
wrote:

Let me give you a more down to earth example.

Suppose that I declare your husband to be an abuser who needs removal
from your house. Then I break into your house, destroy your sunroom
and electrical panel during breakin, and your cats become collateral
damage. Then I occupy the house and become the ruler, staying in the
master bedroom. You and your family become my subjects. Electricity is
restored to the master bedroom only. Your husband is hiding in the
cellar.

Can we amend that to reflect that the SOB *is* an abuser! Let's just
say, for example, he's killed the neighbors and happens to be ****ing
his 12 year old daughter. Personally, *I'd* say, "check out the
basement before you go, please!"

I admit, your points are not without merit as stated, but I think
you're being too simplistic. What if the only family members left are
squabbling about what to do next? Which church to go to, which
brothers to be left out of the will, and so on; backstabbing ensues.
There's no consensus and meanwhile people have to be fed.

electricity to the master bedroom only... when you get on an
airplane they tell you to put the oxygen mask over your own face
first, then assist the child you're with.

Then I decide that your kitchen needs some remodeling. Brick
countertop, glass sinks, plastic cabinets, that sort of thing. I then
proceed to sell some of your furniture to pay for "reconstruction",
which suspiciously is done by my overpriced contractor buddies, but is
paid for by your furniture sales.

Do you see anything wrong with the picture?

Sure, the way you put it, I do. I just think you're editing the
picture to your way of seeing the world. Hey, you're an artist.

I guess not.

But I will explain. This "reconstruction" is done without consulting a
legitimate govertnment of Iraqi people, the oil is being sold without
permission from the Iraqi people either. There is no sovereign
government in Iraq anymore.

Allah be praised.

Iraqis, obviously, have no say in having THEIR oil pledged as
collateral to make profits for Republican chums, by the foreign
invaders/occupiers. But I bet that they would have different uses of
oil in their minds.

**** 'em. Frankly, they are a lot better off than they were a few
months ago

And you base this assertion on what?

You really need to Pay Attention, Igor. Based on the fact that
they're not getting hung up in the streets with their tongues cut out
while they're young daughters are get forcibly deflowered by Uday.

They have no electricity, garbage pickup, etc etc working, the crime
is sky high, no jobs etc. They are not better off.

I guess our definitions are at odds, then.

There is nothing new about wanting to kill thousands of occupied
people in exchange for your soldiers. Old as the warfare
itself. Worked for Genghis Khan. Did not work for most others. But it
does not work well in modern times. By The Way Genghis Khan was kicked
out of Afganistan despite his unrestrained brutality.

Who are the terrorists this time around? You suggest it's the U.S.,
apparently.

The entire UN agreed as recently as five years ago that there were WMD
in Iraq.

I am not sure which resolution you are referring to, but it was
completely obvious that the US had no evidence of Iraqi WMD at
all. And they lie admin LIED to us about having that evidence.

We disagree completely. They may not have had more than a suspicion
this time around, but it was a suspicion shared by the international
community. I don't know that I would have made the decision to enter
Iraq, but to say they outright lied about anything other than
(perhaps) the nuclear issue is not correct.

snippage

I feel sorry for my wallet, myself, as well as for the US soldiers who
are suckers and now have to die in Iraq, and I am also sorry for the
Iraqis as well. They got into this horrid mess and now the US is
afraid to leave Iraq even more than they are afraid to stay because
that would undermine their "credibility". So they are guaranteed to
have years of struggle ahead.

This we agree on, for the most part.

They are completely right to sabotage their oil lines, as the oil is
not going to benefit them. It will pay for things like the mercenary
iraqi "army", Halliburton profits, etc etc.

It's still very stupid overall.

more snipped

If you say sorry about iraq empress, I will be ready to kiss any of
your body part except the ass.

My, my. That leaves a lot to the imagination, Igor.

Heh, heh.

~Empress

(What's wrong with my ass, anyway?)

Let's see what is happening... Washington wants to get a big quantity of
money from lenders, then the plan is, no doubt, to give it to Cheney's
halliburton, Bechtel etc. Then Iraqi oil will be used to repay the
loan.

Iraqis, obviously, have no say in having THEIR oil pledged as
collateral to make profits for Republican chums, by the foreign
invaders/occupiers. But I bet that they would have different uses of
oil in their minds.

The only little obstacle here is that Iraqi oil production is
sabotaged by Iraqis who, not surprisingly, do not want seeing their
oil riches stolen.

Now, Empress, you promised that there will be a big repentance on your
part if my 4 month old predictions about planned theft of Iraqi oil
are coming true. The occupiers have done zip for the iraqi people but
are constantly working very hard to steal Iraqi oil. I am awaiting
your recognition that I was right and you were wrong.

i

================================================== ====================

WASHINGTON, July 11 (AFP) - The administration of President George W. Bush
is considering pledging some of Iraq's future oil and gas revenue to secure
long-term reconstruction loans before a new Iraqi government is in place to
sign off on the proposal, The Los Angeles Times reported Friday.
The newspaper said the plan, which has been endorsed by the Export-Import
Bank and some of the biggest US companies, would help avert a looming cash
crunch that has the potential to stall the postwar rebuilding effort.
But the plan is drawing fire from some administration officials, lawmakers,
policy analysts and prominent Iraqis who say it would mortgage the Gulf
nation's most treasured resource, prevent future leaders from deciding how to
spend their oil money and put US taxpayers at risk, the report said.
However, the Export-Import Bank and a business coalition that includes
Halliburton, Bechtel Group and other major companies that are interested in
winning contracts in Iraq are warning that unless steps are taken soon to
secure new funds, the reconstruction well could run dry, The Times said.
"Common sense says get Iraq running. How do you get the country running? By
using its own oil revenue 100 percent for the benefit of the Iraqi people,"
the paper quoted Export-Import Bank Chairman Philip Merrill as saying. "If you
want to wait three or four years, be my guest. But that means the country is
going to be running on the dole of the United States."
Many experts agree that Iraq is headed for a possible cash flow crisis as
reconstruction costs escalate, initial funds are depleted and the resumption
of oil exports is delayed due to damage caused by looting and sabotage,
according to the report.
But they part company over whether the US-led occupation administration in
Baghdad has the legal or moral authority to pledge future oil revenue as loan
collateral before the issue can be debated by elected Iraqis, The Times said.
"Unless a reconstituted Iraqi government or the UN Security Council
authorizes the plan, it appears to violate international law," Democratic
Congressman Henry Waxman is quoted as saying.
mk/nh
US-Iraq-oil

Empress Otku wrote in message
...
On 11 Jul 2003 15:12:28 GMT, Ignoramus11972
wrote:

Let's see what is happening... Washington wants to get a big quantity of
money from lenders, then the plan is, no doubt, to give it to Cheney's
halliburton, Bechtel etc. Then Iraqi oil will be used to repay the
loan.

If the Iraqi people receive services in kind and their country is
rebuilt with the money, then how have they been ripped off?

My most recent memory was that the U.N. had given Saddam permission to sell
oil so that he could buy food and medicine for his people. Did he do that?
Maybe he did to some extent, but at the same time he was paying large sums
of money to terrorist's families if they would blow themselves up and take
as many innocent people as they could with them. Amazingly large sums of
money were flowing from Saddam to the organizations that back and train
these individuals. I guess instead of selling their oil for money to rebuild
their country, we could always arrange to trade their manufactured goods or
their agriculture....................Please, I have no desire to argue this
topic or the war. However after 911 when Bush said "we're coming to get you"
I said to myself "it's about time".

"Robert" wrote in message
...

Please, I have no desire to argue this
topic or the war. However after 911 when Bush said "we're coming to get
you"
I said to myself "it's about time".

Who else is on your shopping list?

cheap shot..............
"jps" wrote in message
...
"Robert" wrote in message
...

Please, I have no desire to argue this
topic or the war. However after 911 when Bush said "we're coming to get
you"
I said to myself "it's about time".

Who else is on your shopping list?

In article , Empress Otku wrote:
On 11 Jul 2003 15:12:28 GMT, Ignoramus11972
wrote:

Let's see what is happening... Washington wants to get a big quantity of
money from lenders, then the plan is, no doubt, to give it to Cheney's
halliburton, Bechtel etc. Then Iraqi oil will be used to repay the
loan.

If the Iraqi people receive services in kind and their country is
rebuilt with the money, then how have they been ripped off?

Let me give you a more down to earth example.

Suppose that I declare your husband to be an abuser who needs removal
from your house. Then I break into your house, destroy your sunroom
and electrical panel during breakin, and your cats become collateral
damage. Then I occupy the house and become the ruler, staying in the
master bedroom. You and your family become my subjects. Electricity is
restored to the master bedroom only. Your husband is hiding in the
cellar.

Then I decide that your kitchen needs some remodeling. Brick
countertop, glass sinks, plastic cabinets, that sort of thing. I then
proceed to sell some of your furniture to pay for "reconstruction",
which suspiciously is done by my overpriced contractor buddies, but is
paid for by your furniture sales.

Do you see anything wrong with the picture?

I guess not.

But I will explain. This "reconstruction" is done without consulting a
legitimate govertnment of Iraqi people, the oil is being sold without
permission from the Iraqi people either. There is no sovereign
government in Iraq anymore.

Iraqis, obviously, have no say in having THEIR oil pledged as
collateral to make profits for Republican chums, by the foreign
invaders/occupiers. But I bet that they would have different uses of
oil in their minds.

**** 'em. Frankly, they are a lot better off than they were a few
months ago

And you base this assertion on what?

They have no electricity, garbage pickup, etc etc working, the crime
is sky high, no jobs etc. They are not better off.

and we've paid quite a price already. I wouldn't have
given one of those now dead U.S. and U.K. young men for a thousand
Iraqi lives, but I don't make those choices, do I?

There is nothing new about wanting to kill thousands of occupied
people in exchange for your soldiers. Old as the warfare
itself. Worked for Genghis Khan. Did not work for most others. But it
does not work well in modern times. By The Way Genghis Khan was kicked
out of Afganistan despite his unrestrained brutality.

The entire UN agreed as recently as five years ago that there were WMD
in Iraq.

I am not sure which resolution you are referring to, but it was
completely obvious that the US had no evidence of Iraqi WMD at
all. And they lie admin LIED to us about having that evidence.

They are now trying to obfuscate the issue of their lying, shifting
the discussion towards "we do not know what is there and maybe we'll
find something out". But the truth is, they had nothing on Iraqi WMD
and lied about that.

Maybe the Bush admin was/is stupid (that error about the

no doubt about that... They are stupid in addition to criminal.

And democraps are not better, only worse b/c they support gun control.

nuclear shopping in Africa was more than embarrassing) but they had a
difficult decision to make based on common knowledge.

It was a lie, not an error.

The only little obstacle here is that Iraqi oil production is
sabotaged by Iraqis who, not surprisingly, do not want seeing their
oil riches stolen.

I don't feel sorry for the Iraqis in this mess, Igor. At least, not
the ones who are so stupid as to sabotage their own oil lines.

I feel sorry for my wallet, myself, as well as for the US soldiers who
are suckers and now have to die in Iraq, and I am also sorry for the
Iraqis as well. They got into this horrid mess and now the US is
afraid to leave Iraq even more than they are afraid to stay because
that would undermine their "credibility". So they are guaranteed to
have years of struggle ahead.

They are completely right to sabotage their oil lines, as the oil is
not going to benefit them. It will pay for things like the mercenary
iraqi "army", Halliburton profits, etc etc.

Now, Empress, you promised that there will be a big repentance on your
part if my 4 month old predictions about planned theft of Iraqi oil
are coming true. The occupiers have done zip for the iraqi people but
are constantly working very hard to steal Iraqi oil. I am awaiting
your recognition that I was right and you were wrong.

Obviously, I disagree that they've done "zip" but admittedly, I'm not
ready yet to claim victory, either. (For example, I don't see much
happening in Afghanistan to support my expectations; I'm very sorry
about that.)

That's good that you are sorry about something. Accidentally, I do not
has as strong objections about the Afghanistan campaign, which was
based on more than greed, electioneering, and grandstanding.

Igor, I'm touched that I represent the forces of Modern Imperialism in
your mind. You may kiss the hem of my silk brocade robes before you
leave the room.

If you say sorry about iraq empress, I will be ready to kiss any of
your body part except the ass.

i

~Empress

"A great wind is blowing, and that gives you either imagination or a
headache."
Catherine the Great


~Empress

Here's a better example: Let suppose a gang of thugs who have been taught to
hate you and they don't even know you. Come into your neighborhood and start
randomely killing you, your family and your neighbors. Then promise you that
they're not done. Do you:
A: form a committee to discuss and figure out why they hate you and want to
kill you
B: Wait for the next attack and hope they don't get you.
C. Move to a different neighborhood.
D. Go to the source of their organizatioin and kill them first.

"Ignoramus11972" wrote in message
a.com...
In article , Empress Otku
wrote:
On 11 Jul 2003 15:12:28 GMT, Ignoramus11972
wrote:

Let's see what is happening... Washington wants to get a big quantity of
money from lenders, then the plan is, no doubt, to give it to Cheney's
halliburton, Bechtel etc. Then Iraqi oil will be used to repay the
loan.

If the Iraqi people receive services in kind and their country is
rebuilt with the money, then how have they been ripped off?

Let me give you a more down to earth example.

Suppose that I declare your husband to be an abuser who needs removal
from your house. Then I break into your house, destroy your sunroom
and electrical panel during breakin, and your cats become collateral
damage. Then I occupy the house and become the ruler, staying in the
master bedroom. You and your family become my subjects. Electricity is
restored to the master bedroom only. Your husband is hiding in the
cellar.

Then I decide that your kitchen needs some remodeling. Brick
countertop, glass sinks, plastic cabinets, that sort of thing. I then
proceed to sell some of your furniture to pay for "reconstruction",
which suspiciously is done by my overpriced contractor buddies, but is
paid for by your furniture sales.

Do you see anything wrong with the picture?

I guess not.

But I will explain. This "reconstruction" is done without consulting a
legitimate govertnment of Iraqi people, the oil is being sold without
permission from the Iraqi people either. There is no sovereign
government in Iraq anymore.

Iraqis, obviously, have no say in having THEIR oil pledged as
collateral to make profits for Republican chums, by the foreign
invaders/occupiers. But I bet that they would have different uses of
oil in their minds.

**** 'em. Frankly, they are a lot better off than they were a few
months ago

And you base this assertion on what?

They have no electricity, garbage pickup, etc etc working, the crime
is sky high, no jobs etc. They are not better off.

and we've paid quite a price already. I wouldn't have
given one of those now dead U.S. and U.K. young men for a thousand
Iraqi lives, but I don't make those choices, do I?

There is nothing new about wanting to kill thousands of occupied
people in exchange for your soldiers. Old as the warfare
itself. Worked for Genghis Khan. Did not work for most others. But it
does not work well in modern times. By The Way Genghis Khan was kicked
out of Afganistan despite his unrestrained brutality.

The entire UN agreed as recently as five years ago that there were WMD
in Iraq.

I am not sure which resolution you are referring to, but it was
completely obvious that the US had no evidence of Iraqi WMD at
all. And they lie admin LIED to us about having that evidence.

They are now trying to obfuscate the issue of their lying, shifting
the discussion towards "we do not know what is there and maybe we'll
find something out". But the truth is, they had nothing on Iraqi WMD
and lied about that.

Maybe the Bush admin was/is stupid (that error about the

no doubt about that... They are stupid in addition to criminal.

And democraps are not better, only worse b/c they support gun control.

nuclear shopping in Africa was more than embarrassing) but they had a
difficult decision to make based on common knowledge.

It was a lie, not an error.

The only little obstacle here is that Iraqi oil production is
sabotaged by Iraqis who, not surprisingly, do not want seeing their
oil riches stolen.

I don't feel sorry for the Iraqis in this mess, Igor. At least, not
the ones who are so stupid as to sabotage their own oil lines.

I feel sorry for my wallet, myself, as well as for the US soldiers who
are suckers and now have to die in Iraq, and I am also sorry for the
Iraqis as well. They got into this horrid mess and now the US is
afraid to leave Iraq even more than they are afraid to stay because
that would undermine their "credibility". So they are guaranteed to
have years of struggle ahead.

They are completely right to sabotage their oil lines, as the oil is
not going to benefit them. It will pay for things like the mercenary
iraqi "army", Halliburton profits, etc etc.

Now, Empress, you promised that there will be a big repentance on your
part if my 4 month old predictions about planned theft of Iraqi oil
are coming true. The occupiers have done zip for the iraqi people but
are constantly working very hard to steal Iraqi oil. I am awaiting
your recognition that I was right and you were wrong.

Obviously, I disagree that they've done "zip" but admittedly, I'm not
ready yet to claim victory, either. (For example, I don't see much
happening in Afghanistan to support my expectations; I'm very sorry
about that.)

That's good that you are sorry about something. Accidentally, I do not
has as strong objections about the Afghanistan campaign, which was
based on more than greed, electioneering, and grandstanding.

Igor, I'm touched that I represent the forces of Modern Imperialism in
your mind. You may kiss the hem of my silk brocade robes before you
leave the room.

If you say sorry about iraq empress, I will be ready to kiss any of
your body part except the ass.

i

~Empress

"A great wind is blowing, and that gives you either imagination or a
headache."
Catherine the Great


~Empress

In article , Robert wrote:
Here's a better example: Let suppose a gang of thugs who have been taught to
hate you and they don't even know you. Come into your neighborhood and start
randomely killing you, your family and your neighbors. Then promise you that
they're not done. Do you:
A: form a committee to discuss and figure out why they hate you and want to
kill you
B: Wait for the next attack and hope they don't get you.
C. Move to a different neighborhood.
D. Go to the source of their organizatioin and kill them first.

Did not know that Iraq has been killing us randomly... (prior to the
occupation that is)

You have been lied to Robert.

i

"Ignoramus11972" wrote in message
a.com...
In article , Empress Otku
wrote:
On 11 Jul 2003 15:12:28 GMT, Ignoramus11972
wrote:

Let's see what is happening... Washington wants to get a big quantity of
money from lenders, then the plan is, no doubt, to give it to Cheney's
halliburton, Bechtel etc. Then Iraqi oil will be used to repay the
loan.

If the Iraqi people receive services in kind and their country is
rebuilt with the money, then how have they been ripped off?

Let me give you a more down to earth example.

Suppose that I declare your husband to be an abuser who needs removal
from your house. Then I break into your house, destroy your sunroom
and electrical panel during breakin, and your cats become collateral
damage. Then I occupy the house and become the ruler, staying in the
master bedroom. You and your family become my subjects. Electricity is
restored to the master bedroom only. Your husband is hiding in the
cellar.

Then I decide that your kitchen needs some remodeling. Brick
countertop, glass sinks, plastic cabinets, that sort of thing. I then
proceed to sell some of your furniture to pay for "reconstruction",
which suspiciously is done by my overpriced contractor buddies, but is
paid for by your furniture sales.

Do you see anything wrong with the picture?

I guess not.

But I will explain. This "reconstruction" is done without consulting a
legitimate govertnment of Iraqi people, the oil is being sold without
permission from the Iraqi people either. There is no sovereign
government in Iraq anymore.

Iraqis, obviously, have no say in having THEIR oil pledged as
collateral to make profits for Republican chums, by the foreign
invaders/occupiers. But I bet that they would have different uses of
oil in their minds.

**** 'em. Frankly, they are a lot better off than they were a few
months ago

And you base this assertion on what?

They have no electricity, garbage pickup, etc etc working, the crime
is sky high, no jobs etc. They are not better off.

and we've paid quite a price already. I wouldn't have
given one of those now dead U.S. and U.K. young men for a thousand
Iraqi lives, but I don't make those choices, do I?

There is nothing new about wanting to kill thousands of occupied
people in exchange for your soldiers. Old as the warfare
itself. Worked for Genghis Khan. Did not work for most others. But it
does not work well in modern times. By The Way Genghis Khan was kicked
out of Afganistan despite his unrestrained brutality.

The entire UN agreed as recently as five years ago that there were WMD
in Iraq.

I am not sure which resolution you are referring to, but it was
completely obvious that the US had no evidence of Iraqi WMD at
all. And they lie admin LIED to us about having that evidence.

They are now trying to obfuscate the issue of their lying, shifting
the discussion towards "we do not know what is there and maybe we'll
find something out". But the truth is, they had nothing on Iraqi WMD
and lied about that.

Maybe the Bush admin was/is stupid (that error about the

no doubt about that... They are stupid in addition to criminal.

And democraps are not better, only worse b/c they support gun control.

nuclear shopping in Africa was more than embarrassing) but they had a
difficult decision to make based on common knowledge.

It was a lie, not an error.

The only little obstacle here is that Iraqi oil production is
sabotaged by Iraqis who, not surprisingly, do not want seeing their
oil riches stolen.

I don't feel sorry for the Iraqis in this mess, Igor. At least, not
the ones who are so stupid as to sabotage their own oil lines.

I feel sorry for my wallet, myself, as well as for the US soldiers who
are suckers and now have to die in Iraq, and I am also sorry for the
Iraqis as well. They got into this horrid mess and now the US is
afraid to leave Iraq even more than they are afraid to stay because
that would undermine their "credibility". So they are guaranteed to
have years of struggle ahead.

They are completely right to sabotage their oil lines, as the oil is
not going to benefit them. It will pay for things like the mercenary
iraqi "army", Halliburton profits, etc etc.

Now, Empress, you promised that there will be a big repentance on your
part if my 4 month old predictions about planned theft of Iraqi oil
are coming true. The occupiers have done zip for the iraqi people but
are constantly working very hard to steal Iraqi oil. I am awaiting
your recognition that I was right and you were wrong.

Obviously, I disagree that they've done "zip" but admittedly, I'm not
ready yet to claim victory, either. (For example, I don't see much
happening in Afghanistan to support my expectations; I'm very sorry
about that.)

That's good that you are sorry about something. Accidentally, I do not
has as strong objections about the Afghanistan campaign, which was
based on more than greed, electioneering, and grandstanding.

Igor, I'm touched that I represent the forces of Modern Imperialism in
your mind. You may kiss the hem of my silk brocade robes before you
leave the room.

If you say sorry about iraq empress, I will be ready to kiss any of
your body part except the ass.

i

~Empress

"A great wind is blowing, and that gives you either imagination or a
headache."
Catherine the Great


~Empress

Yes, and the twin towers collapsing before our eyes was a grand illusion and
the dead body parts flying from busses and restaraunts in Jerusalem mere
fabrications. It's all connected. Perhaps your lying to yourself.

"Ignoramus11972" wrote in message
a.com...
You have been lied to Robert.