"RJSmithers" wrote in message
...
JimH wrote:
"Eisboch" wrote in message
. ..
"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 03:15:26 -0400, Eisboch penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:


If he's a dealer, which I now suspect, he didn't do anything illegal.
There seems to be way more cloak-and dagger stuff going on here for
something not to be borderline crooked, if not entirely illegal.

Trust me, as a buyer, I got on the wrong end of one of these deals and
you don't want to go there.....

If he sells the boat (with whatever representations he deems
appropriate) and pulls a disappearing act, the two signers of the
paperwork are likely left to duke it out..... You and Whomever....


Good point. I am not overly concerned because fundamentally I know the
boat and engine are fine. But, your point is well taken.

Eisboch


Let's say the brokers friend asks if he could use the boat for a day or
two and is involved in a fatal accident. Open your wallet because you
are legally the owner of that boat.

You should give your attorney a call on this.
Richard,

Whenever non-attorney's give you free advice, realize it is worth exactly
what you have paid for it.

You would not be responsible for any damages or have any more liability
than if someone stole your car and had an accident, even if it was a fatal
accident.




Not true. Friend in Florida in the 1970's had his car stolen. Georgia
police gave chase to the stolen car and riddled it with about 150 bullet
holes. Car crashed and took out 150' of highway chain railing. Friends
insurance company had to pay for the damage. He owed the car, so is liable
for any damage it causes. Said it would have been cheaper for the insurance
company to have just given the car to the thief. Locally a few years ago, a
person sold a motorcycle and filled out the change of ownership statement
that is sent to the state DMV. The DMV misplaced the form. A couple of
weeks later, the buyer crashed the bike and killed both himself and a girl
on the back. The girls parents were going to get millions from the seller,
as they could not prove they sold the bike. Luckily for the seller, someone
at the DMV found the form as they were sending a bunch of old stuff to be
burned.

Calif Bill wrote:
"RJSmithers" wrote in message
...
JimH wrote:
"Eisboch" wrote in message
. ..
"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 03:15:26 -0400, Eisboch penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:


If he's a dealer, which I now suspect, he didn't do anything illegal.
There seems to be way more cloak-and dagger stuff going on here for
something not to be borderline crooked, if not entirely illegal.

Trust me, as a buyer, I got on the wrong end of one of these deals and
you don't want to go there.....

If he sells the boat (with whatever representations he deems
appropriate) and pulls a disappearing act, the two signers of the
paperwork are likely left to duke it out..... You and Whomever....

Good point. I am not overly concerned because fundamentally I know the
boat and engine are fine. But, your point is well taken.

Eisboch

Let's say the brokers friend asks if he could use the boat for a day or
two and is involved in a fatal accident. Open your wallet because you
are legally the owner of that boat.

You should give your attorney a call on this.
Richard,

Whenever non-attorney's give you free advice, realize it is worth exactly
what you have paid for it.

You would not be responsible for any damages or have any more liability
than if someone stole your car and had an accident, even if it was a fatal
accident.




Not true. Friend in Florida in the 1970's had his car stolen. Georgia
police gave chase to the stolen car and riddled it with about 150 bullet
holes. Car crashed and took out 150' of highway chain railing. Friends
insurance company had to pay for the damage. He owed the car, so is liable
for any damage it causes. Said it would have been cheaper for the insurance
company to have just given the car to the thief. Locally a few years ago, a
person sold a motorcycle and filled out the change of ownership statement
that is sent to the state DMV. The DMV misplaced the form. A couple of
weeks later, the buyer crashed the bike and killed both himself and a girl
on the back. The girls parents were going to get millions from the seller,
as they could not prove they sold the bike. Luckily for the seller, someone
at the DMV found the form as they were sending a bunch of old stuff to be
burned.



Bill,

While this story has all the ear marks of a great urban legend, I will
assume you knew all the information from your friend. If that is true,
they obviously have changed the law since the 1970's

http://insurance.freeadvice.com/insu...02_170_601.htm

When I have sold cars and boats to individuals I have always drawn up
contracts of sale and contacted the state and DNR concerning the sale.
I was not really worried the liability, but I wanted to make sure I was
taken off the tax records and the new party was responsible for the taxes.

Since Richard is a smart guy, I would assume he had a contract for the
sale signed by all parties. While this is not as easy as filing a
record of the sale with the state and/or DNR, it could be used in a
court to show proof that you no longer owned the car/boat.

Chuck's excellent advice was one of someone who was in the business and
is used to covering all aspects of liability. I would make sure I
followed his advice on future sales.

Here is a great link reviewing the details on how to handle car/boat
sales by individuals.

http://siy.cars.com/siy/qsg/tipsClose.jsp?aff=pe

"RJSmithers" wrote in message
...


Since Richard is a smart guy, I would assume he had a contract for the
sale signed by all parties. While this is not as easy as filing a record
of the sale with the state and/or DNR, it could be used in a court to show
proof that you no longer owned the car/boat.



Richard's not as smart as you think.

A few years back MA became a full title state, requiring titles for all car,
boat, truck and trailer transactions regardless of vehicle age. Before then
you could sell some vehicles, particularly cars 10 years or older, without a
title. All you needed was a bill of sale. (I think you can still sell
and/or register small trailers under 3500 GVW without the requirement for a
title.)

Since the new title laws went into force, a bill of sale is no longer
required to register the vehicle. In fact, if you present one to the DMV,
they hand it back to you saying, "We don't need this". As a result, many
private sales are done without a bill of sale ... just an assignment of the
title.

My experience has taught me to do a bill of sale anyway ... two copies ...
one for the buyer and the other for the seller. Also ... I'll never again
turn over the title to a private buyer without filling in the new owner's
name regardless of the buyer's request. (not required for a dealer
transaction, however).

As I posted before ... it has worked out ok. I've talked to the buyer and
we are resolving the issue. But, I got a little bit smarter.

Eisboch

Eisboch wrote:
"RJSmithers" wrote in message
...


Since Richard is a smart guy, I would assume he had a contract for the
sale signed by all parties. While this is not as easy as filing a record
of the sale with the state and/or DNR, it could be used in a court to show
proof that you no longer owned the car/boat.



Richard's not as smart as you think.

A few years back MA became a full title state, requiring titles for all car,
boat, truck and trailer transactions regardless of vehicle age. Before then
you could sell some vehicles, particularly cars 10 years or older, without a
title. All you needed was a bill of sale. (I think you can still sell
and/or register small trailers under 3500 GVW without the requirement for a
title.)

Since the new title laws went into force, a bill of sale is no longer
required to register the vehicle. In fact, if you present one to the DMV,
they hand it back to you saying, "We don't need this". As a result, many
private sales are done without a bill of sale ... just an assignment of the
title.

My experience has taught me to do a bill of sale anyway ... two copies ...
one for the buyer and the other for the seller. Also ... I'll never again
turn over the title to a private buyer without filling in the new owner's
name regardless of the buyer's request. (not required for a dealer
transaction, however).

As I posted before ... it has worked out ok. I've talked to the buyer and
we are resolving the issue. But, I got a little bit smarter.

Eisboch



Richard,
I am glad it worked out for you. Hopefully the info below can be used
by anyone else buying or selling a boat/car. I not only use the
contract of sale to send to the state/dnr, but also a "CYA" stating
exactly what our arrangements are, including that the sale is "AS IS"
without any warranty. The buyer can still hold you responsible for
known defects you deliberately hide from him, but it would prevent him
from saying you gave him a verbal warranty for "X" of days.

Since I have sold both cars and boats with outstanding loans on them, I
always include that it is my responsibility to pay off the loan and
provide a clean title to the buyer.

Here is a great link showing the info required on a bill of sale for all
50 states. I have used the same basic form for boat sales.

http://www.dmv.org/bill-of-sale.php

For anyone selling their own boat/car here is a great web site to print
out a free bill of sale.

http://www.lawdepot.com/contracts/bill-of-sale/

"RJSmithers" wrote in message
...


Since Richard is a smart guy, I would assume he had a contract for the
sale signed by all parties. While this is not as easy as filing a record
of the sale with the state and/or DNR, it could be used in a court to
show proof that you no longer owned the car/boat.



"Whenever non-attorney's give you free advice, realize it is worth exactly
what you have paid for it."
- RJSmithers, rec.boats, 3/30/07

JimH wrote:
"RJSmithers" wrote in message
...


Since Richard is a smart guy, I would assume he had a contract for the
sale signed by all parties. While this is not as easy as filing a record
of the sale with the state and/or DNR, it could be used in a court to
show proof that you no longer owned the car/boat.



"Whenever non-attorney's give you free advice, realize it is worth exactly
what you have paid for it."
- RJSmithers, rec.boats, 3/30/07



JimH,
This is definitely excellent advice.

"Eisboch" wrote in message
. ..


As I posted before ... it has worked out ok. I've talked to the buyer and
we are resolving the issue. But, I got a little bit smarter.

Eisboch


Glad to hear things worked out.

On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 07:20:57 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

As I posted before ... it has worked out ok. I've talked to the buyer and
we are resolving the issue. But, I got a little bit smarter.

I wasn't going to say anything only because this has happened to me
once and I didn't want to pile on.

When I sold my '70 440 GTX, the buyer asked me to leave the title
blank as he was going to register it under his company name. I didn't
see anything wrong with that - like you we had an extensive
conversation about the car and I received the impression that he
wanted it for his collection. He gave me a story about how he had his
cars insured through his business, etc. Nice guy, pleasant and
seemingly honest. Paid cash.

Turns out he was both a collector and a dealer from Manchester, CT. He
bought the car for a client who paid a third more than the guy paid
me.

How I found out about it was interesting. I took the 'Vette to a
classic car show down in Norwich, there was the GTX parked about three
cars from me with the new owner proud of his "one owner" car he found
in Manchester. Apparently, there is a "thing" about one owner
classics which I never knew. If I had signed the title over to the
dealer, it became a "two owner" car technically.

Like Chuck said, I got what I wanted out of it, but that still doesn't
mean that you feel like you've been had.

Oh well. :)

On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:49:35 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

Like Chuck said, I got what I wanted out of it, but that still doesn't
mean that you feel like you've been had.

To be entirely fair though, that's what dealers do. They get paid for
taking the risk of ownership and being able to find a buyer at the
right price. If you knew the potential market as well as the dealer,
you *might* have been able to reach the same buyer at the same price
but it's not guaranteed.

"RJSmithers" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"RJSmithers" wrote in message
...
JimH wrote:
"Eisboch" wrote in message
. ..
"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 03:15:26 -0400, Eisboch penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:


If he's a dealer, which I now suspect, he didn't do anything
illegal.
There seems to be way more cloak-and dagger stuff going on here for
something not to be borderline crooked, if not entirely illegal.

Trust me, as a buyer, I got on the wrong end of one of these deals
and
you don't want to go there.....

If he sells the boat (with whatever representations he deems
appropriate) and pulls a disappearing act, the two signers of the
paperwork are likely left to duke it out..... You and Whomever....

Good point. I am not overly concerned because fundamentally I know
the boat and engine are fine. But, your point is well taken.

Eisboch

Let's say the brokers friend asks if he could use the boat for a day or
two and is involved in a fatal accident. Open your wallet because
you are legally the owner of that boat.

You should give your attorney a call on this.
Richard,

Whenever non-attorney's give you free advice, realize it is worth
exactly what you have paid for it.

You would not be responsible for any damages or have any more liability
than if someone stole your car and had an accident, even if it was a
fatal accident.




Not true. Friend in Florida in the 1970's had his car stolen. Georgia
police gave chase to the stolen car and riddled it with about 150 bullet
holes. Car crashed and took out 150' of highway chain railing. Friends
insurance company had to pay for the damage. He owed the car, so is
liable for any damage it causes. Said it would have been cheaper for the
insurance company to have just given the car to the thief. Locally a few
years ago, a person sold a motorcycle and filled out the change of
ownership statement that is sent to the state DMV. The DMV misplaced the
form. A couple of weeks later, the buyer crashed the bike and killed
both himself and a girl on the back. The girls parents were going to get
millions from the seller, as they could not prove they sold the bike.
Luckily for the seller, someone at the DMV found the form as they were
sending a bunch of old stuff to be burned.

Bill,

While this story has all the ear marks of a great urban legend, I will
assume you knew all the information from your friend. If that is true,
they obviously have changed the law since the 1970's

http://insurance.freeadvice.com/insu...02_170_601.htm

When I have sold cars and boats to individuals I have always drawn up
contracts of sale and contacted the state and DNR concerning the sale. I
was not really worried the liability, but I wanted to make sure I was
taken off the tax records and the new party was responsible for the taxes.

Since Richard is a smart guy, I would assume he had a contract for the
sale signed by all parties. While this is not as easy as filing a record
of the sale with the state and/or DNR, it could be used in a court to show
proof that you no longer owned the car/boat.

Chuck's excellent advice was one of someone who was in the business and is
used to covering all aspects of liability. I would make sure I followed
his advice on future sales.

Here is a great link reviewing the details on how to handle car/boat sales
by individuals.

http://siy.cars.com/siy/qsg/tipsClose.jsp?aff=pe



I would still believe you would get stuck for damages. You own the car, and
you are responsible for it. Would be lots of people running away from an
accident and claiming the car was stolen, as well as with deep pocket laws,
they are going after the money. I was in a company class with the guy with
the shot up car.