"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 03:15:26 -0400, Eisboch penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:


If he's a dealer, which I now suspect, he didn't do anything illegal.

There seems to be way more cloak-and dagger stuff going on here for
something not to be borderline crooked, if not entirely illegal.

Trust me, as a buyer, I got on the wrong end of one of these deals and
you don't want to go there.....

If he sells the boat (with whatever representations he deems
appropriate) and pulls a disappearing act, the two signers of the
paperwork are likely left to duke it out..... You and Whomever....



Good point. I am not overly concerned because fundamentally I know the
boat and engine are fine. But, your point is well taken.

Eisboch

"Eisboch" wrote in message
. ..

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 03:15:26 -0400, Eisboch penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:


If he's a dealer, which I now suspect, he didn't do anything illegal.

There seems to be way more cloak-and dagger stuff going on here for
something not to be borderline crooked, if not entirely illegal.

Trust me, as a buyer, I got on the wrong end of one of these deals and
you don't want to go there.....

If he sells the boat (with whatever representations he deems
appropriate) and pulls a disappearing act, the two signers of the
paperwork are likely left to duke it out..... You and Whomever....



Good point. I am not overly concerned because fundamentally I know the
boat and engine are fine. But, your point is well taken.

Eisboch


Let's say the brokers friend asks if he could use the boat for a day or two
and is involved in a fatal accident. Open your wallet because you are
legally the owner of that boat.

You should give your attorney a call on this.

JimH wrote:
"Eisboch" wrote in message
. ..
"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 03:15:26 -0400, Eisboch penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:


If he's a dealer, which I now suspect, he didn't do anything illegal.
There seems to be way more cloak-and dagger stuff going on here for
something not to be borderline crooked, if not entirely illegal.

Trust me, as a buyer, I got on the wrong end of one of these deals and
you don't want to go there.....

If he sells the boat (with whatever representations he deems
appropriate) and pulls a disappearing act, the two signers of the
paperwork are likely left to duke it out..... You and Whomever....


Good point. I am not overly concerned because fundamentally I know the
boat and engine are fine. But, your point is well taken.

Eisboch


Let's say the brokers friend asks if he could use the boat for a day or two
and is involved in a fatal accident. Open your wallet because you are
legally the owner of that boat.

You should give your attorney a call on this.


Richard,

Whenever non-attorney's give you free advice, realize it is worth
exactly what you have paid for it.

You would not be responsible for any damages or have any more liability
than if someone stole your car and had an accident, even if it was a
fatal accident.

"RJSmithers" wrote in message
...


Whenever non-attorney's give you free advice, realize it is worth exactly
what you have paid for it.

You would not be responsible for any damages or have any more liability
than if someone stole your car and had an accident, even if it was a fatal
accident.


Probably, however Admiralty law is often different than common law. I am
not an expert, but it's something about prior liabilities follow the boat,
not the past owner. There was a case a few years back where the owner of a
boat had caused damage to a restricted sea grass area or reef or something.
He subsequently sold the boat. The environmental guys eventually tracked
the offending boat down and the new owner .... who knew nothing of the event
..... was held financially responsible. He fought it and got the fine
reduced considerably, but still had to pay something like 20K if I recall
the story correctly.

Eisboch

"Eisboch" wrote in message
. ..

"RJSmithers" wrote in message
...


Whenever non-attorney's give you free advice, realize it is worth exactly
what you have paid for it.

You would not be responsible for any damages or have any more liability
than if someone stole your car and had an accident, even if it was a
fatal accident.


Probably, however Admiralty law is often different than common law. I am
not an expert, but it's something about prior liabilities follow the boat,
not the past owner. There was a case a few years back where the owner of
a boat had caused damage to a restricted sea grass area or reef or
something. He subsequently sold the boat. The environmental guys
eventually tracked the offending boat down and the new owner .... who knew
nothing of the event .... was held financially responsible. He fought it
and got the fine reduced considerably, but still had to pay something like
20K if I recall the story correctly.


I wonder if things are different if the boat is USCG documented rather than
just registered with the state?

Isn't documentation akin to title insurance?

"NOYB" wrote in message
link.net...


"Eisboch" wrote in message
. ..

Probably, however Admiralty law is often different than common law. I am
not an expert, but it's something about prior liabilities follow the
boat, not the past owner. There was a case a few years back where the
owner of a boat had caused damage to a restricted sea grass area or reef
or something. He subsequently sold the boat. The environmental guys
eventually tracked the offending boat down and the new owner .... who
knew nothing of the event .... was held financially responsible. He
fought it and got the fine reduced considerably, but still had to pay
something like 20K if I recall the story correctly.




I wonder if things are different if the boat is USCG documented rather
than just registered with the state?

Isn't documentation akin to title insurance?


I don't know. In the case I described the boat was a big one and I am sure
it was documented.

Eisboch

On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:09:28 GMT, "NOYB" wrote:

Isn't documentation akin to title insurance?

Not exactly. Documentation establishes the chain of ownership and
establishes that there are no unfullfilled *prior* liens. I have
personal knowledge of a case however where a governmental authority
threatened a lien and vessel seizure because of an alleged tax
liability incurred by a prior owner ten years in the past.

Supposedly all they have to do is notify the Coast Guard to effect the
seizure. The boat in question was bought with the usual contractural
assurances of clean title, no liens, judgements, etc plus an assurance
to defend against any such action. That is all meaningless however
unless you can get your legal hands on the prior owner(s), and
meanwhile the boat could be under seizure and tied up in litigation
until the mess is resolved.

Fortunately in this case, the governmental agency in question came to
their senses and decided not to pursue it further but it was very
messy and tense while it lasted.

One possible way to avoid or minimize such a risk is to document
offshore which breaks the USCG chain of title and makes the boat very
difficult to trace through its doc number.

"Eisboch" wrote in message
. ..

"RJSmithers" wrote in message
...


You would not be responsible for any damages or have any more liability
than if someone stole your car and had an accident, even if it was a
fatal accident.


Whenever non-attorney's give you free advice, realize it is worth exactly
what you have paid for it.

"RJSmithers" wrote in message
...
JimH wrote:
"Eisboch" wrote in message
. ..
"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 03:15:26 -0400, Eisboch penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:


If he's a dealer, which I now suspect, he didn't do anything illegal.
There seems to be way more cloak-and dagger stuff going on here for
something not to be borderline crooked, if not entirely illegal.

Trust me, as a buyer, I got on the wrong end of one of these deals and
you don't want to go there.....

If he sells the boat (with whatever representations he deems
appropriate) and pulls a disappearing act, the two signers of the
paperwork are likely left to duke it out..... You and Whomever....


Good point. I am not overly concerned because fundamentally I know the
boat and engine are fine. But, your point is well taken.

Eisboch


Let's say the brokers friend asks if he could use the boat for a day or
two and is involved in a fatal accident. Open your wallet because you
are legally the owner of that boat.

You should give your attorney a call on this.
Richard,

Whenever non-attorney's give you free advice, realize it is worth exactly
what you have paid for it.

You would not be responsible for any damages or have any more liability
than if someone stole your car and had an accident, even if it was a fatal
accident.




Not true. Friend in Florida in the 1970's had his car stolen. Georgia
police gave chase to the stolen car and riddled it with about 150 bullet
holes. Car crashed and took out 150' of highway chain railing. Friends
insurance company had to pay for the damage. He owed the car, so is liable
for any damage it causes. Said it would have been cheaper for the insurance
company to have just given the car to the thief. Locally a few years ago, a
person sold a motorcycle and filled out the change of ownership statement
that is sent to the state DMV. The DMV misplaced the form. A couple of
weeks later, the buyer crashed the bike and killed both himself and a girl
on the back. The girls parents were going to get millions from the seller,
as they could not prove they sold the bike. Luckily for the seller, someone
at the DMV found the form as they were sending a bunch of old stuff to be
burned.

Calif Bill wrote:
"RJSmithers" wrote in message
...
JimH wrote:
"Eisboch" wrote in message
. ..
"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 03:15:26 -0400, Eisboch penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:


If he's a dealer, which I now suspect, he didn't do anything illegal.
There seems to be way more cloak-and dagger stuff going on here for
something not to be borderline crooked, if not entirely illegal.

Trust me, as a buyer, I got on the wrong end of one of these deals and
you don't want to go there.....

If he sells the boat (with whatever representations he deems
appropriate) and pulls a disappearing act, the two signers of the
paperwork are likely left to duke it out..... You and Whomever....

Good point. I am not overly concerned because fundamentally I know the
boat and engine are fine. But, your point is well taken.

Eisboch

Let's say the brokers friend asks if he could use the boat for a day or
two and is involved in a fatal accident. Open your wallet because you
are legally the owner of that boat.

You should give your attorney a call on this.
Richard,

Whenever non-attorney's give you free advice, realize it is worth exactly
what you have paid for it.

You would not be responsible for any damages or have any more liability
than if someone stole your car and had an accident, even if it was a fatal
accident.




Not true. Friend in Florida in the 1970's had his car stolen. Georgia
police gave chase to the stolen car and riddled it with about 150 bullet
holes. Car crashed and took out 150' of highway chain railing. Friends
insurance company had to pay for the damage. He owed the car, so is liable
for any damage it causes. Said it would have been cheaper for the insurance
company to have just given the car to the thief. Locally a few years ago, a
person sold a motorcycle and filled out the change of ownership statement
that is sent to the state DMV. The DMV misplaced the form. A couple of
weeks later, the buyer crashed the bike and killed both himself and a girl
on the back. The girls parents were going to get millions from the seller,
as they could not prove they sold the bike. Luckily for the seller, someone
at the DMV found the form as they were sending a bunch of old stuff to be
burned.



Bill,

While this story has all the ear marks of a great urban legend, I will
assume you knew all the information from your friend. If that is true,
they obviously have changed the law since the 1970's

http://insurance.freeadvice.com/insu...02_170_601.htm

When I have sold cars and boats to individuals I have always drawn up
contracts of sale and contacted the state and DNR concerning the sale.
I was not really worried the liability, but I wanted to make sure I was
taken off the tax records and the new party was responsible for the taxes.

Since Richard is a smart guy, I would assume he had a contract for the
sale signed by all parties. While this is not as easy as filing a
record of the sale with the state and/or DNR, it could be used in a
court to show proof that you no longer owned the car/boat.

Chuck's excellent advice was one of someone who was in the business and
is used to covering all aspects of liability. I would make sure I
followed his advice on future sales.

Here is a great link reviewing the details on how to handle car/boat
sales by individuals.

http://siy.cars.com/siy/qsg/tipsClose.jsp?aff=pe