Looking through the local sports magazine (Boulder, Colorado), I see
lot's of "roll classes" for whitewater kayaks. Do sea kayakers need
this, too. I know what rolling is -- seems to me that if a sea kayak
is flipped due to a wave or something, it'd be good to know how to
roll back up. Or is just getting out of the kayak sufficient?

TIA

On Feb 12, 9:53 pm, "Moby Dick" wrote:
Looking through the local sports magazine (Boulder, Colorado), I see
lot's of "roll classes" for whitewater kayaks. Do sea kayakers need
this, too. I know what rolling is -- seems to me that if a sea kayak
is flipped due to a wave or something, it'd be good to know how to
roll back up. Or is just getting out of the kayak sufficient?

TIA


The roll is more crucial for WW kayakers than sea kayakers because the
water that WW kayakers are generally on is moving (rivers) and what's
immediately downstream of a WW kayaker who flipped is usually
hazardous, whereas when a sea kayaker flips, the water is generally
not moving, so the sea kayaker has the option of doing a number of
different solo or assisted rescues. These options are generally not
available to a flipped WW kayaker, and certainly not within the WW
kayaker has to right themselves before hitting a rock or going over a
pourover or something similarly hazardous. The flipped WW kayaker
needs to get right side up ASAP, and the roll does that.

The roll is basically the same for the sea kayak as it is for the WW
kayak, namely head down and hip snap. (And let's not turn this into a
discussion of the myriad different ways to roll a kayak, they are
mostly basically the same!) As a WW kayaker who ventured into the
world of sea kayaking as an instructor, I feel much more secure in a
boat I can roll. I think it would be good for all kayakers to learn
the roll, but as I said it's not nearly as crucial for a sea kayaker
to be able to roll a sea kayak as it is a WW kayaker to roll a WW
kayak.

John Kuthe...

"Moby Dick" wrote in
oups.com:

Looking through the local sports magazine (Boulder, Colorado), I see
lot's of "roll classes" for whitewater kayaks. Do sea kayakers need
this, too. I know what rolling is -- seems to me that if a sea kayak
is flipped due to a wave or something, it'd be good to know how to
roll back up. Or is just getting out of the kayak sufficient?

Good question.

The topic has been discussed in the past with varying opinions on the
importance of learning to roll in a sea kayak. John's response covered some
good points but I have a couple of things to add.

Consider this: You're paddling a sea kayak 1/4 mile offshore in 50 degree
waters (or colder) and you capsize. If you roll up you're back out of the
water in seconds. The alternative is exiting the kayak (a wet exit). IMHO,
learning how to wet exit is the first thing that anyone getting into a kayak
should know. The second thing is learning how to get back into the kayak
while in deep water. If the water is very cold and you can't get back into
your boat it's unlikely that you'll make it to shore before succumbing to
hypothermia if you try to swim.

Most good beginning kayak classes will cover the basic strokes, but will
also teach out to wet exist and show you several techniques for reentering
the boat. There are also some good books on the subject (do an amazon
search on sea kayak rescue). Many will also recommend getting a copy of
"Deep Trouble".

Moby Dick wrote:
Looking through the local sports magazine (Boulder, Colorado), I see
lot's of "roll classes" for whitewater kayaks. Do sea kayakers need
this, too.

Yes, they do, especially when paddling in cold water. Unfortunately,
most sea kayakers never bother to learn to roll, which is really
short-sighted. Rolling is not only an important safety skill, but it's a
"gateway" skill that makes it much easier to learn more advanced
edging, bracing and paddle strokes. Knowing how to roll can result in
dramatically improved boat handling ability overall.

I know what rolling is -- seems to me that if a sea kayak
is flipped due to a wave or something, it'd be good to know how to
roll back up. Or is just getting out of the kayak sufficient?

Although knowing how to wet exit is obviously important, it should be
regarded as a last resort, not an integral part of one's safety
strategy. A good analogy might be falling while skiing. Anyone can stop
on skis by simply falling down (and beginners are often taught to do
so), but it's not the first choice or the best choice, it's what you do
when all else fails.

Moby


I have paddled both Whitewater and Sea and would advise that working towards
being a proficent roller is a must. It will give you a great boost in your
confidence as well as being very useful both on sea, in surf landing or on a
river. Rolling is rolling, so to starting learning in a whiteboat boat is
ok. The main thing is get the basics and then try it in as may boats as you
can as they all have a different feel and tricks depending on the hull
design and boat volume

I was on a trip when a guy flipped as we where coming into a tight cove
entrance with some rocks. It took two of us to get the guy back in his boat
with a third towing aginst the tide and wind to keep from washing on the
rocks. If the guy had been able to roll we I would have had a far less scary
thoughts as I looked over my sholder a the white stuff breaking behind us.

try the following resouces

The Bombproof roll and beyond by paul dutky isbn 0-89732-085-9

The Kayak Roll by kent ford www.performancevideo.com


The main thing to rember when rolling loaded sea boats is they take a lot
loger to get the momentum going so you need to slow the roll down a bit when
compared to a small pool practice boat. Also extend the lever by moving your
grip to one end of the paddle shaft. the rest is just practice, and don't
forget the nose clip!!!!

I usually do a few parctice rolls on the end of each session just to keep my
hand in with diferent boats.

Try progresing from and eskimo or T-Rescue first, then rolloing and finally
re-entry and roll or eskimo rescue. A paddle float and good pump will also
come in handy while yo get the hang of it.

Best of luck

Gary


"Moby Dick" wrote in message
oups.com...
Looking through the local sports magazine (Boulder, Colorado), I see
lot's of "roll classes" for whitewater kayaks. Do sea kayakers need
this, too. I know what rolling is -- seems to me that if a sea kayak
is flipped due to a wave or something, it'd be good to know how to
roll back up. Or is just getting out of the kayak sufficient?

TIA

I just bought a kayak for my wife. It came with "The complete Book of
Sea Kayaking" by Derek Hutchinson
I would recommend it highly.
A lot of people will want to paddle without a skirt(as in here in
Florida) so it is very important to learn how to get back in a kayak
after flipping. Equipment needs include a pump and a paddle bag (not
sure what you call it but you inflate it, put your paddle in it and it
acts as a stabilizer to help you get back in the boat)..
Can't overemphasize safety!

Totally agree with need to practice rolling for itself but also for
boat handling..

Monk



On Feb 13, 7:53 pm, "Debbie Archer" wrote:
Moby

I have paddled both Whitewater and Sea and would advise that working towards
being a proficent roller is a must. It will give you a great boost in your
confidence as well as being very useful both on sea, in surf landing or on a
river. Rolling is rolling, so to starting learning in a whiteboat boat is
ok. The main thing is get the basics and then try it in as may boats as you
can as they all have a different feel and tricks depending on the hull
design and boat volume

I was on a trip when a guy flipped as we where coming into a tight cove
entrance with some rocks. It took two of us to get the guy back in his boat
with a third towing aginst the tide and wind to keep from washing on the
rocks. If the guy had been able to roll we I would have had a far less scary
thoughts as I looked over my sholder a the white stuff breaking behind us.

try the following resouces

The Bombproof roll and beyond by paul dutky isbn 0-89732-085-9

The Kayak Roll by kent ford www.performancevideo.com

The main thing to rember when rolling loaded sea boats is they take a lot
loger to get the momentum going so you need to slow the roll down a bit when
compared to a small pool practice boat. Also extend the lever by moving your
grip to one end of the paddle shaft. the rest is just practice, and don't
forget the nose clip!!!!

I usually do a few parctice rolls on the end of each session just to keep my
hand in with diferent boats.

Try progresing from and eskimo or T-Rescue first, then rolloing and finally
re-entry and roll or eskimo rescue. A paddle float and good pump will also
come in handy while yo get the hang of it.

Best of luck

Gary

"Moby Dick" wrote in message

oups.com...

Looking through the local sports magazine (Boulder, Colorado), I see
lot's of "roll classes" for whitewater kayaks. Do sea kayakers need
this, too. I know what rolling is -- seems to me that if a sea kayak
is flipped due to a wave or something, it'd be good to know how to
roll back up. Or is just getting out of the kayak sufficient?

TIA

On Feb 14, 8:40 am, "Monk Terry" wrote:
I just bought a kayak for my wife. It came with "The complete Book of
Sea Kayaking" by Derek Hutchinson
I would recommend it highly.
A lot of people will want to paddle without a skirt(as in here in
Florida) so it is very important to learn how to get back in a kayak
after flipping. Equipment needs include a pump and a paddle bag (not
sure what you call it but you inflate it, put your paddle in it and it
acts as a stabilizer to help you get back in the boat)..
Can't overemphasize safety!

Totally agree with need to practice rolling for itself but also for
boat handling..

Monk

On Feb 13, 7:53 pm, "Debbie Archer" wrote:



Moby

I have paddled both Whitewater and Sea and would advise that working towards
being a proficent roller is a must. It will give you a great boost in your
confidence as well as being very useful both on sea, in surf landing or on a
river. Rolling is rolling, so to starting learning in a whiteboat boat is
ok. The main thing is get the basics and then try it in as may boats as you
can as they all have a different feel and tricks depending on the hull
design and boat volume

I was on a trip when a guy flipped as we where coming into a tight cove
entrance with some rocks. It took two of us to get the guy back in his boat
with a third towing aginst the tide and wind to keep from washing on the
rocks. If the guy had been able to roll we I would have had a far less scary
thoughts as I looked over my sholder a the white stuff breaking behind us.

try the following resouces

The Bombproof roll and beyond by paul dutky isbn 0-89732-085-9

The Kayak Roll by kent ford www.performancevideo.com

The main thing to rember when rolling loaded sea boats is they take a lot
loger to get the momentum going so you need to slow the roll down a bit when
compared to a small pool practice boat. Also extend the lever by moving your
grip to one end of the paddle shaft. the rest is just practice, and don't
forget the nose clip!!!!

I usually do a few parctice rolls on the end of each session just to keep my
hand in with diferent boats.

Try progresing from and eskimo or T-Rescue first, then rolloing and finally
re-entry and roll or eskimo rescue. A paddle float and good pump will also
come in handy while yo get the hang of it.

Best of luck

Gary

"Moby Dick" wrote in message

roups.com...

Looking through the local sports magazine (Boulder, Colorado), I see
lot's of "roll classes" for whitewater kayaks. Do sea kayakers need
this, too. I know what rolling is -- seems to me that if a sea kayak
is flipped due to a wave or something, it'd be good to know how to
roll back up. Or is just getting out of the kayak sufficient?

TIA- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks, Monk. I did a search on Amazon. There seems to be a number of
good books and DVDs. I listed the first 9 book and 2 DVD's below.

1. The Complete Book of Sea Kayaking, 5th by Derek C. Hutchinson (The
one you recommended).
2. The Essential Sea Kayaker: A Complete Guide for the Open Water
Paddler, Second Edition by David Seidman
3. Sea Kayaking: A Manual for Long-Distance Touring by John Dowd
4. Sea Kayaking: A Woman's Guide by Shelley Johnson
5. Fundamentals of Kayak Navigation, 3rd (Sea Kayaking How- To) by
David Burch
6. Sea Kayaking Illustrated : A Visual Guide to Better Paddling by
John Robison
7. Sea Kayaking The Ultimate Guide DVD (DVD - 2005)
8. Sea Kayaker's Savvy Paddler: More than 500 Tips for Better
Kayaking by Doug Alderson
9. The Complete Sea Kayaker's Handbook by Shelley Johnson
10. Sea Kayaking Beyond the Basics DVD
11. Touring and Sea Kayaking: The Essential Skills and Safety by Alex
Matthews and Ken Whiting


PS: I agree with you on safety. Also, unless something happens, I'll
be in a basic kayaking class next Tuesday and a roll class the
following week.

"Moby Dick" wrote in
oups.com:

A couple of comments on the list...

Thanks, Monk. I did a search on Amazon. There seems to be a number of
good books and DVDs. I listed the first 9 book and 2 DVD's below.

1. The Complete Book of Sea Kayaking, 5th by Derek C. Hutchinson (The
one you recommended).
3. Sea Kayaking: A Manual for Long-Distance Touring by John Dowd

The Derek Hutchinson and John Dowd books are typically on every "essential
books" on Sea Kayaking I've seen. I've got a copy of both. Derek's is an
easier read but there are some that consider his strong opinions a bit
controversial. I personally like them man and took a class from him a long
time ago and my skill level increased significantly after just a two hour
class.

4. Sea Kayaking: A Woman's Guide by Shelley Johnson


5. Fundamentals of Kayak Navigation, 3rd (Sea Kayaking How- To) by
David Burch

Burch's book is considered the bible on kayak navigation. Many have read it
several times, primarily because it's somewhat of a dry read and it takes
several reads to understand it all. It's worth getting but probably not
necessary for getting started.


9. The Complete Sea Kayaker's Handbook by Shelley Johnson

I've seen a lot of recommendations for this book, and some rank it higher
than Hutchinsons book.

A few more to add to your list...

Sea Kayaking: Safety & Rescue by John Lull

Sea Kayak Rescue, 2nd: The Definitive Guide to Modern Reentry and Recovery
Techniques (How to Paddle Series) by Roger Schumann and Jan Shriner

Sea Kayaker's Deep Trouble: True Stories and Their Lessons from Sea
Kayaker Magazine by Matt Broze and George Gronseth

If you want to just read about a couple of kayak expeditions, I highly
recommend Chris Duff's books, "One Celtic Tides" and "Southern Exposure"

Something else that you may consider...

When I first got started in the sport I attended a Sea Kayaking symposium in
Maine (that's where I took the class from Mutchinson). There are lots of
symposia that occur throughout out the country that are an excellent means
to immerse your self in sea kayaking for several days. They offer training
opportunities and are attended by many kayak vendors that provide a vast
array of models to demo. Check the Sea Kayaker magazine web site events
calendar for a good list (www.seakayakermag.com). The next good one coming
up is in Charleston, SC (East Coast Canoe and Kayak Festival).


PS: I agree with you on safety. Also, unless something happens, I'll
be in a basic kayaking class next Tuesday and a roll class the
following week.

Excellent.

Moby Dick wrote:

Thanks, Monk. I did a search on Amazon. There seems to be a number of
good books and DVDs. I listed the first 9 book and 2 DVD's below.

1. The Complete Book of Sea Kayaking, 5th by Derek C. Hutchinson (The
one you recommended).

A good book and a fun read, but that's typical of Derek's work.

2. The Essential Sea Kayaker: A Complete Guide for the Open Water
Paddler, Second Edition by David Seidman

IMO, this is the best of the beginner's books. In particular, his
progressive method of teaching bracing and rolling skills works very well.

5. Fundamentals of Kayak Navigation, 3rd (Sea Kayaking How- To) by
David Burch

This is a must have, but it's overly long and I find it to be really
tedious to read. Come to think of it, I've never made it through it
completely.

6. Sea Kayaking Illustrated : A Visual Guide to Better Paddling by
John Robison
7. Sea Kayaking The Ultimate Guide DVD (DVD - 2005)

8. Sea Kayaker's Savvy Paddler: More than 500 Tips for Better
Kayaking by Doug Alderson

There are some really good tips in this one.

I agree with John's recommendation of "Sea Kayaker Deep Trouble". I
consider it a must-read. Every kayak should come with a copy.

Nigel Foster's DVD series is excellent. He's a great teacher and a very
personable guy.

PS: I agree with you on safety. Also, unless something happens, I'll
be in a basic kayaking class next Tuesday and a roll class the
following week.

That's a very good start. It will take time and practice to build your
skills, but you seem to have the proper mindset to make it happen.