RantOK, not to pick on Walt, but what is it about canoes that people
will spend hundreds/thousands on a canoe, an additional pot of money on
racks, and then tie the boat on with a chunk of the cheapest nylon rope
from Home Despot? Buy a good set of straps (15-20bucks) so that you can
put one across each bar, and secure the boat that way, use decent
braided rope (and trucker's hitch or tautline hitch) to tie the bow and
maybe the stern. Sorry, I've seen too many broken boats from cheap
homemade racks and crappy tiedowns. /Rant

That said I agree with everything else Walt says!

Walt wrote:
wrote:

We're looking into purchasing a used canoe (an Old Town Penobscot 16, a
16 footer) and the only car we have to carry it is a 2005 Subaru
Forester. There's a roof rack on the forester, and from rough tape
measure estimates, it looks like it'll be close, but it will fit. I'm
curious, though, if anyone has any experience with trying to carry a
canoe on a stock Subaru rack, and what suggestions you would have.
We've done plenty of canoeing, but have never had our own to carry
around.

Canoes are not that heavy. As long as you tie it down securely you
won't have a problem. People car top on all manner of vehicles (e.g.
Cooper Mini) without a problem.

Make sure you tie a bow line, a stern line, and a belly line. Two belly
lines if you're feeling unlucky. (Hint: Learn to tie a trucker's hitch
instead of buying fancy straps.) You want to excersize due diligence,
but it's not rocket surgery.

Use the 1-10-100 method of making sure your load is secu check it
after one mile, check it again after ten miles, then stop and check it
every 100 miles.

//Walt

Marsh Jones wrote:
RantOK, not to pick on Walt, but what is it about canoes that people
will spend hundreds/thousands on a canoe, an additional pot of money on
racks, and then tie the boat on with a chunk of the cheapest nylon rope
from Home Despot? Buy a good set of straps (15-20bucks) so that you can
put one across each bar, and secure the boat that way, use decent
braided rope (and trucker's hitch or tautline hitch) to tie the bow and
maybe the stern. Sorry, I've seen too many broken boats from cheap
homemade racks and crappy tiedowns. /Rant

That said I agree with everything else Walt says!

I'm pretty much in agreement with Marsh that people could put more
thought in to how they secure their expensive investment onto the roof
of their car, however I usually see a different type of negligence than
just having a crappy tiedown.

rant
Folks will investigate and analyze different boats ad nauseum, weighing
the advantages and constraints of kevlar vs fiberglass vs ABS (vs wood
vs canvas), wood rails vs vinyl, length, width, tumblehome, etc etc.
Folks will assert their individual preferences, determine what is of
value to themselves and their unique situation, then buy what they have
determined to be the best personal choice of boat for their style of
boating....then they get all brain-dead and buy a prepackaged tie-down
kit that fits on any generic car or boat. The tie down should be
thought out and customized at least as much as the boat, IMNSHO.

My personal (overanalytical) experience is that a decent braided rope
is de rigeur for the bow and stern tiedowns. And instead of using a
permanent loop (tied with a butterfly, for example) for the trucker's
hitch, I deliberately spread the wear and tear around by tying an
overhand loop at a slightly different place each time.

For the belly lines (also de rigeur), I have found that a rope has its
advantages: it slides to the best position easily, does not vibrate or
hum in the wind, and accepts a trucker's hitch easily no matter how the
rope is initially tossed over. It also can be used as the tie-down
leash for the gear once I am on the river, and a frayed end can be
easily cut off.

However, straps also have some distinct advantages: the buckles are
more secure in wet conditions, its easier to untie when unloading the
boat, and they do not leave 'wear zones' on the hull of boat as a
rubbing rope will eventually do. Also, there's something satisfying
about making a pair of straps that are exactly the right length for
securing your boat on your vehicle; just be sure that you don't let the
ends fray.

However, no matter which one you choose, it should be a deliberate
CHOICE, taking into account the advantages of each one and used in a
manner that best utilizes those advantages.

In any case, those prepackaged tie-down kits are a waste of money, and
they send a rather embarassing signal about your ability to really
analyze a situation. Strange as it sounds, but I feel uncomfortable
paddling with someone who I don't believe 'thinks about things', but
instead relies on dogma and protocol, and if I notice my paddle partner
using some prepackaged tiedown kit, my opinion of their ability to
troubleshoot on-river situations deteriorates.

YMMV
/rant

--riverman

riverman wrote:
[snip] However, no matter which one you choose, it should be a deliberate
CHOICE, taking into account the advantages of each one and used in a
manner that best utilizes those advantages.

In any case, those prepackaged tie-down kits are a waste of money, and
they send a rather embarassing signal about your ability to really
analyze a situation. Strange as it sounds, but I feel uncomfortable
paddling with someone who I don't believe 'thinks about things', but
instead relies on dogma and protocol, and if I notice my paddle partner
using some prepackaged tiedown kit, my opinion of their ability to
troubleshoot on-river situations deteriorates.

YMMV
/rant

--riverman

The *worst* are the ratcheting straps found 'four for $9.99' at Home
Depot/K-mart/et al. I replaced two gunwhales last year as a direct
result of those (not to mention the stress it caused the hull) and a
just rescued another. And yeah - a slip knot instead of a more
permanent loop is my preference on bow lines.

Marsh

So where should you buy ropes and straps? And how does someone who is
new to all of this determine what kind of ropes and straps to buy?

wrote:
So where should you buy ropes and straps? And how does someone who is
new to all of this determine what kind of ropes and straps to buy?

Straps with ancra buckles are available at any place that sells racks and
accessories as well as at most paddling shops. Rope comes in many forms - you
will want good stuff that does not change length much when wet. For that
reason, polyester is a good choice. Good quality polyester kernmantle
construction braided line is available at a marine supply shop. Six millimeter
(1/4 inch) is a good size to use.

Nylon changes length too much when wet. Laid polypropylene (i.e. the twisted
stuff from hardware stores) is crap, while the braided polypropylene is pretty
good. Kevlar and Spectra are overkill for tiedowns.


Mike

Michael Daly wrote:
wrote:
So where should you buy ropes and straps? And how does someone who is
new to all of this determine what kind of ropes and straps to buy?

Straps with ancra buckles are available at any place that sells racks and
accessories as well as at most paddling shops. Rope comes in many forms - you
will want good stuff that does not change length much when wet. For that
reason, polyester is a good choice. Good quality polyester kernmantle
construction braided line is available at a marine supply shop. Six millimeter
(1/4 inch) is a good size to use.

Nylon changes length too much when wet. Laid polypropylene (i.e. the twisted
stuff from hardware stores) is crap, while the braided polypropylene is pretty
good. Kevlar and Spectra are overkill for tiedowns.


All good advice, but let me add the suggestion that you start with rope
before you start using straps with ancra buckles.

The reason is that you can do some serious damage to your car with the
buckles. Most noobies start by holding the buckle and tossing the strap
over the boat, around the rack and back over the boat. That leaves you
pulling UP on the strap to tighten the rig which is completely
inefficient, or else walking the entire rig around (you'll completely
understand this the first time you do it). Then you will do the next
best thing: hold the strap and toss the buckle over the boat. The
problem comes if you toss *too much* strap with the buckle....the ancra
buckle can thwap your side window or the car and bust the glass or chip
the paint. Otherwise you don't toss enough strap and end up having to
climb up on the roof to get it, or else it comes tumbling back down in
your face.

Tie down your boat with good poly-core line until you get a good
feeling for how to toss a strap with a buckle....your windows, paint
and teeth will thank you.

:-)

--riverman

For what it's worth - I've always tied down canoes with rope and kayaks
with straps - don't ask me why!

Oh yeah, I replaced my Suburu racks with Yakimas. Don't listen to what
Yakima recommends for the length of your racks either - they recommend
the length that will go out to the edge of your roofline. You really
want to go roofline plus ~ 10 inches which will go out as far as your
sideview mirrors.

riverman wrote:
Michael Daly wrote:
wrote:
So where should you buy ropes and straps? And how does someone who is
new to all of this determine what kind of ropes and straps to buy?

Straps with ancra buckles are available at any place that sells racks and
accessories as well as at most paddling shops. Rope comes in many forms - you
will want good stuff that does not change length much when wet. For that
reason, polyester is a good choice. Good quality polyester kernmantle
construction braided line is available at a marine supply shop. Six millimeter
(1/4 inch) is a good size to use.

Nylon changes length too much when wet. Laid polypropylene (i.e. the twisted
stuff from hardware stores) is crap, while the braided polypropylene is pretty
good. Kevlar and Spectra are overkill for tiedowns.


All good advice, but let me add the suggestion that you start with rope
before you start using straps with ancra buckles.

The reason is that you can do some serious damage to your car with the
buckles. Most noobies start by holding the buckle and tossing the strap
over the boat, around the rack and back over the boat. That leaves you
pulling UP on the strap to tighten the rig which is completely
inefficient, or else walking the entire rig around (you'll completely
understand this the first time you do it). Then you will do the next
best thing: hold the strap and toss the buckle over the boat. The
problem comes if you toss *too much* strap with the buckle....the ancra
buckle can thwap your side window or the car and bust the glass or chip
the paint. Otherwise you don't toss enough strap and end up having to
climb up on the roof to get it, or else it comes tumbling back down in
your face.

Tie down your boat with good poly-core line until you get a good
feeling for how to toss a strap with a buckle....your windows, paint
and teeth will thank you.

:-)

--riverman

I drive a Cheep Cherokee Classic (one of the last with real rain
gutters) and a Yakima rack with the longest bars (head bangers) they
make. These are mounted over the top of the integrated luggage rack.
When I carry a canoe, I use long loop straps (NRS) over the belly.
They attach to the holes in the integrated rack travelers. The buckle
end is only about 6 inches long, and by the time it is looped around
and through, it is short enough that it never hits the roof or loosens
and is ready when I need it I just leave it attached all season. It
is a pull up to tighten however.

Now originally, I used to use two belly tie downs.. The one in front
attached to the left side of the front thwart, went over the top of
the canoe and mated with the buckle on the right side of the vehicle.
The back tie down attached to the right side of the rear thwart, went
over the top of the canoe and mated with a buckle on the rear left
side. Once attached, they were then secured in turn.

Not sure where I got this idea or why Any merit to this approach?
Comments always welcome!

That method seemed like too much work, so I just switched to lefft
side front and reat over the top secured to the right side. A bow and
stern line and she is ready to go.

I originally used the Yakima racks on a minivan to carry my rafting
frame. It looked kind of funny up there with the highback foam seat and
all.

The YakRacks are great though. Carry everything on them. Plywood,
steel shelving, 20 foot extension ladder. I just took them off for the
winter - but given the wimpy weather we have been having, should have
just left them up. No snow to speak of.

Blakely
--
Blakely LaCroix
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA

"The best adventure is yet to come"

Per :
And how does someone who is
new to all of this determine what kind of ropes and straps to buy?

I get my straps at a local windsurfing shop. The windsurfing industry seems to
have straps down to a fine art.
--
PeteCresswell