I've been complaining to anyone who'd listen about the crummy rack
mounting options on most cars and I freely opined about having cars
built with rack attachment points built-in. In particular, I suggested
a threaded recess on the roof in the pseudo-raingutter that is built
into many modern cars.

Well, I was walking through town the other day and saw exactly that!
A fairly new BMW sedan was equipped with a neat roof rack that looked
like it attached in a manner similar to the VW cars - Golf in particular.
The Golf uses an "almost great" system where a short gutter and a couple
of bolthead-like bits are hidden under the door seal. The only problem
with that, according to a friend who has a Golf, is that with the rack
prying the seal up a teensy bit, a few drops of water get in when it
rains heavily. Anyway, I wandered over to the BMW to see what it looked
like up close and behold:

There is are four little doors in the rain recess (two each side, one
front, one rear). Each opens to show a threaded, sealed hole in the
roof frame. The tower of the rack sits on the roof over this point and
a bolt drops down into the threaded hole and tightens up to hold the tower
in place. Neat, tight, no openings into the passenger compartment, solid
and easy to attach/remove. Kudoes to BMW, a car company I usually don't
have much respect for.

Now that someone has done it, perhaps other car manufacturers can provide
a similar system and we can use _one_ roof rack system with lots of
vehicles without major compatibility problems.

Mike

Our CR-V came sans factory roof racks (we wanted none), but had fourt
panels on the roof that unclip to reveal similar mounts, except that
each mount takes four bolts.

The Thule rack we have uses mounts that bolt into those attachment
points and come with matching snap-in covers, so that all that remains
on the roof when the rack is off is four horizontal bars that stick up
perhaps 1/2". The Tracker II "feet" and crossbar clip and unclip from
these bars in literally seconds.

Really, really nice system to use. Quick, easy and secure.

Per Michael Daly:
Now that someone has done it, perhaps other car manufacturers can provide
a similar system and we can use _one_ roof rack system with lots of
vehicles without major compatibility problems.

I've never tried it, but have heard several times from people who seem to know
that the ultimate retrofit system is those bolt-on gutter-simulators.

I've got a Suburban with the factory rails on it. They've worked so far, but
my suspicion is that the bolt-on gutters would have been just as strong or
stronger and allowed the load tb 3-4" lower down.
--
PeteCresswell

On 3-Apr-2006, "(PeteCresswell)" wrote:

I've never tried it, but have heard several times from people who seem to know
that the ultimate retrofit system is those bolt-on gutter-simulators.

Why would I want to bolt something old-fashioned on the outside of the vehicle
when it is so simple for the car makers to build something _inside_ the vehicle?
Gutters were a bad design back in the day and a bad design now - noise and
wind resistance with no real advantage.

Mike

On 3-Apr-2006, wrote:

Our CR-V came sans factory roof racks (we wanted none), but had fourt
panels on the roof that unclip to reveal similar mounts, except that
each mount takes four bolts.

I just found out about this on another forum. I'm going to check out a friend's
CRV tomorrow at a pool session.

Mike

Michael Daly wrote:
On 3-Apr-2006, "(PeteCresswell)" wrote:

Gutters were a bad design back in the day and a bad design now - noise and
wind resistance with no real advantage.

There are still some advantages of rain gutters. The most useful is
that a raingutter along the lenght of a vehicel roofline allows the
crossbars to be positioned anywhere, and not just where at factory
predetermined locations.

One of the few vehicle types that still has raingutters is full sized
vans. Ford, Chevy and Dodge vans all still have raingutters.

On a long roofline like a van having raingutters is wonderful. I use a
triple crossbar rack system, with the front and rear crossbars at the
far ends of the roofline (which makes it easier to solo load and unload
boats). The middle crossbar can be loosened and slid forward or
backward to better acommodate boats of different lengths.

Nah, I still like the adavantages of raingutters, and still use (and
perfer) a variety of DIY'ed Quick and Easy roof racks if raingutters
areavailable.

Michael, what about the rail system that one can find on so many
different brands of stationwagons nowadays? They have the advantage of
being able to space the crossbars just like the old gutter system did,
and they are very sturdy. I've used my current roofrack on several
different models and brands. Of course, you'd have to get a
stationwagon, but considering the extra space, that seems like an
advantage to most paddlers over a hatchback or sedan... :-)

Pictures of the roofrack:

http://kayaker.nl/galler20.html

Wilko

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

Per Michael Daly:
Why would I want to bolt something old-fashioned on the outside of the vehicle
when it is so simple for the car makers to build something _inside_ the vehicle?

1) Because the makers may not be doing so on the vehicle you prefer.

2) So you can pick the horizontal locations. For instance, some rooftop boxes
have indents for the crossbars. If the crossbars aren't located at the
indents you have to drill new holes in the box and the box rides a couple of
inches higher. Or for carrying something like a surf ski (19-20 feet long)
where you want the thing as far back as possible to minimize windage.

3) To allow for a more generic interface. Instead of having to find a set of
racks whose posts mate to a given make/model, you can choose from any
set made for rain gutters.

4) To have a known quantity. When you drill through the vehicle's structure,
you have some feeling for how strong the attachments will be. With the maker
providing their own mount points you have to trust that their strength
will be adequate. Yes, this one is a stretch.... but I can't help recalling
Chevy's Astrovan having it's front seats/seatbelt mounts pull out some years
back in whatever standard crash test it was subjected to.
--
PeteCresswell

On 4-Apr-2006, "Wilko" wrote:

what about the rail system that one can find on so many
different brands of stationwagons nowadays? They have the advantage of
being able to space the crossbars just like the old gutter system did,
and they are very sturdy.

If the car makers provide four fixed points, as per BMW and the CRV, there's no
reason you can't bolt on a couple of rails like this and have full adjustability.
That's what I like about the potential of such a system widely adopted. It
greatly simplifies the approach to adding roof mounted gadgets. The only
thing that will differentiate different vehicles is the shim that matches a standard
roof attachment to the exact roof curve/profile (like the different rubber feet
currently supplied with various incarnations of standard Thule/Yakima towers).

Mike

On 4-Apr-2006, "(PeteCresswell)" wrote:

1) Because the makers may not be doing so on the vehicle you prefer.

But I want the makers to realize that, for folks like us, this sort of thing
determines which vehicle we prefer.


2) So you can pick the horizontal locations. [...]

3) To allow for a more generic interface. [...]

See my response to Wilko.

4) To have a known quantity. When you drill through the vehicle's structure,
you have some feeling for how strong the attachments will be.

See answer to number 1) above.

Your approach leaves us with makers who don't really need to consider this part
of the market as one that should be serviced. They build whatever _they_ want
and you modify it with whatever you can find. I want them to make the vehicle
_I_ want and provide a simple, reliable and standard facilities that adapt to a large
number of outdoor enthusiasts. Many cars now have standard attachment points
for child seats - I want standard attachment points for grownup toys.

Mike