"Del Cecchi" wrote in message
...
RCE wrote:
"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 14:17:09 -0400, "RCE" wrote:



Simple explanation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam

Interesting that you example mentions wet steam....since that should
be visible.... it is, by your definition, water vapor.

In my younger years, I used to donate quite a bit of time running
historical steam engines. I can *assure* you that, without a
superheater, these engines were running on wet steam. If vapor was
incompressible, that couldn't have happened.....


Well, interesting discussion, anyway.

I've come across a few contradictions in the world of science and physics
over the years - at least to the level that my simple head can
understand. It seems that a particular theory or mathematical model that
works for one technical discipline may be at odds with those subscribed
to in another discipline. A good example is wavelength issues in
electronics versus optics. Although the rules are similar and both use
Smith charts, etc., an electronics engineer and an optical dude will
debate how it works forever.

RCE

www.eisboch.com
Smith charts in Optics? Never heard of such. Tell me more. I have used
smith charts in electronics.


Yup. The same one. Thin film optical interference coatings are often
designed as band pass filters, blocking filters selective wavelength
transmission, etc., and the Smith Chart is as much a tool to those guys as
it is to electronic circuit and microwave engineers. It should be as the
theory is basically the same, optics just operate at much, much shorter
wavelengths.

RCE

www.eisboch.com

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Jim" wrote in message
link.net...

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:24:06 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 14:05:33 GMT, Gene Kearns
wrote:

No, but I've seen water vapor that was compressed perform work.....
http://tinyurl.com/jtwls

Steam is in a gaseous state, only when it condenses does it form
visible water vapor.

Have you guys got a link or source to support this definition?

Gene, I've looked, but can't find one on-line that clearly defines the
definition that I can understand. My basic understanding is from a
discussion I had years ago with a scientist who corrected my
misunderstanding of this subject and it has stuck in my head. Many
people, including myself before that discussion, think of steam as being
the visible fog seen over a pot of boiling water or the exhaust from the
pistons of a steam powered locomotive. It's not steam. It's condensing
water vapor. Steam is regarded as a gas because it obeys general gas
laws whereas water vapor does not.

RCE

www.eisboch.com



The elements that make water can change state between gas and liquid. Can
they also change state to solid?
Just curious,
Jim


Ignore my smart-ass Manhattan on the rocks. (ice).

I assume you mean can hydrogen and/or oxygen freeze solid? I don't know
but have never heard of it.
There's liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen but I don't know if they can get
cold enough to become a solid.
I suppose if you could achieve absolute zero (zero, Kelvin) then they
would be a solid since at absolute zero there is theoretically no movement
of molecules.

RCE

www.eisboch.com


Thank you! My secret decoder ring was having difficulty decoding the last
message.

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:55:20 -0400, "RCE" wrote:



Steam is a gas and behaves as such. Water vapor is not a gas.


You guys may be entirely correct, but if so, I can't confirm it by any
source available to me.....

Looks like I may have been mistaken, at least according to my Google
search:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam

"In physical chemistry, and in engineering, steam refers to vaporized water.
It is a pure, completely invisible gas (for mist see below), which at
standard atmospheric pressure has a temperature of around 100 degrees
Celsius, and occupies about 1,600 times the volume of liquid water (steam
can of course be much hotter than the boiling point of water; such steam is
usually called superheated steam).

In common speech, steam most often refers to the white mist that condenses
above boiling water as the hot vapor ("steam" in the first sense) mixes with
the cooler air. After gaseous steam has intermixed with air, it is no longer
properly called steam and is instead referred to as water vapor."


http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/va...eam-d_609.html
"In superheated vapor the temperature is higher than the boiling point
temperature corresponding to the pressure. The vapor can not exist in
contact with the fluid, nor contain fluid particles. An increase in pressure
or decrease in temperature will not - within limits - condensate out liquid
particles in the vapor. Highly superheated vapors are gases that
approximately follow the general gas law."

I guess there is a fine line on this which I was not aware of.

" JimH" jimhUNDERSCOREosudad@yahooDOTcom wrote in message
. ..

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:55:20 -0400, "RCE" wrote:



Steam is a gas and behaves as such. Water vapor is not a gas.


You guys may be entirely correct, but if so, I can't confirm it by any
source available to me.....

Looks like I may have been mistaken, at least according to my Google
search:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam

"In physical chemistry, and in engineering, steam refers to vaporized
water. It is a pure, completely invisible gas (for mist see below), which
at standard atmospheric pressure has a temperature of around 100 degrees
Celsius, and occupies about 1,600 times the volume of liquid water (steam
can of course be much hotter than the boiling point of water; such steam
is usually called superheated steam).

In common speech, steam most often refers to the white mist that condenses
above boiling water as the hot vapor ("steam" in the first sense) mixes
with the cooler air. After gaseous steam has intermixed with air, it is no
longer properly called steam and is instead referred to as water vapor."


http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/va...eam-d_609.html
"In superheated vapor the temperature is higher than the boiling point
temperature corresponding to the pressure. The vapor can not exist in
contact with the fluid, nor contain fluid particles. An increase in
pressure or decrease in temperature will not - within limits - condensate
out liquid particles in the vapor. Highly superheated vapors are gases
that approximately follow the general gas law."

I guess there is a fine line on this which I was not aware of.


You are not alone. I assumed steam was simply hot water vapor for years
until corrected by someone a lot more knowledgeable than I.

RCE

www.eisboch.com

"Jim" wrote in message
link.net...

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:24:06 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 14:05:33 GMT, Gene Kearns
wrote:

No, but I've seen water vapor that was compressed perform work.....
http://tinyurl.com/jtwls

Steam is in a gaseous state, only when it condenses does it form
visible water vapor.

Have you guys got a link or source to support this definition?

Gene, I've looked, but can't find one on-line that clearly defines the
definition that I can understand. My basic understanding is from a
discussion I had years ago with a scientist who corrected my
misunderstanding of this subject and it has stuck in my head. Many
people, including myself before that discussion, think of steam as
being the visible fog seen over a pot of boiling water or the exhaust
from the pistons of a steam powered locomotive. It's not steam. It's
condensing water vapor. Steam is regarded as a gas because it obeys
general gas laws whereas water vapor does not.

RCE

www.eisboch.com



The elements that make water can change state between gas and liquid.
Can they also change state to solid?
Just curious,
Jim
Yes they can. See for example
http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/serv...cvips&gifs=yes
or http://nautilus.fis.uc.pt/st2.5/scen...em/e00895.html

O2 melts at 55 K. Boils at 90 K
H2 melts at 14K and Boils at 20K

Gay Aerts wrote:


Holy crap!

Way to add to the conversation, asswipe.

Bbob

Guys,

OK, I think I've finally gotten it. Solid, liquid, vapor, gas, right?
Well, except for sublimation? But, vapor seems to be a concentration of
numerous small LIQUID particles? OK, if that's so it really is solid,
liquid, gas, right?

Thanks for clearing that up for me, guys, and so concisly, too. :=)

Butch
"Del Cecchi" wrote in message
...

"Jim" wrote in message
link.net...

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:24:06 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 14:05:33 GMT, Gene Kearns
wrote:

No, but I've seen water vapor that was compressed perform work.....
http://tinyurl.com/jtwls

Steam is in a gaseous state, only when it condenses does it form
visible water vapor.

Have you guys got a link or source to support this definition?

Gene, I've looked, but can't find one on-line that clearly defines the
definition that I can understand. My basic understanding is from a
discussion I had years ago with a scientist who corrected my
misunderstanding of this subject and it has stuck in my head. Many
people, including myself before that discussion, think of steam as being
the visible fog seen over a pot of boiling water or the exhaust from the
pistons of a steam powered locomotive. It's not steam. It's condensing
water vapor. Steam is regarded as a gas because it obeys general gas
laws whereas water vapor does not.

RCE

www.eisboch.com



The elements that make water can change state between gas and liquid. Can
they also change state to solid?
Just curious,
Jim
Yes they can. See for example
http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/serv...cvips&gifs=yes
or http://nautilus.fis.uc.pt/st2.5/scen...em/e00895.html

O2 melts at 55 K. Boils at 90 K
H2 melts at 14K and Boils at 20K

"Butch Davis" wrote in message
link.net...
Guys,

OK, I think I've finally gotten it. Solid, liquid, vapor, gas, right?
Well, except for sublimation? But, vapor seems to be a concentration of
numerous small LIQUID particles? OK, if that's so it really is solid,
liquid, gas, right?

Thanks for clearing that up for me, guys, and so concisly, too. :=)

Butch


Not quite done yet. In the scientific and physics world there's another
"state". Ionized gas or "plasma".

RCE

www.eisboch.com

You won't be happy till you see all our eyes glazed over; will ya?
Jim

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Butch Davis" wrote in message
link.net...
Guys,

OK, I think I've finally gotten it. Solid, liquid, vapor, gas, right?
Well, except for sublimation? But, vapor seems to be a concentration of
numerous small LIQUID particles? OK, if that's so it really is solid,
liquid, gas, right?

Thanks for clearing that up for me, guys, and so concisly, too. :=)

Butch


Not quite done yet. In the scientific and physics world there's another
"state". Ionized gas or "plasma".

RCE

www.eisboch.com

"Jim" wrote in message
nk.net...


You won't be happy till you see all our eyes glazed over; will ya?
Jim



Not quite done yet. In the scientific and physics world there's another
"state". Ionized gas or "plasma".

RCE

www.eisboch.com





I've seen your eyes glazed over a few times and it wasn't from talking about
technical stuff.

RCE

www.eisboch.com