wrote:
K. Smith wrote:

Only gases burn, no liquids no matter how flammable they are, actually
"burn", all liquids that can burn only do so once they're fully
vapourised. It's the vapour that allows oxygen to be available to
support the combustion.


Are you sure that's correct?

I think diesel fuel is atomized, not vaporized, to support combustion.
The fuel can burn because each microdrop is surrounded by an atmosphere
that contains oxygen.

Never mind. Additional consideration arrives at a conclusion that
supports your theory;
the microdrops evaporate into the atmosphere of the cylinder
immediately prior to combustion. "Evaporate" as in material ceases to
behave as a liquid and begins behaving as a gas.

There is a difference between a gas and a vapor? I thought there were
liguids, fluids, and gases. Fluids covering both bases? But with a
refrigeration background my thoughts are probably too simplistic.
Butch
"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On 12 Jun 2006 18:52:06 -0700, "
wrote:


wrote:
K. Smith wrote:

Only gases burn, no liquids no matter how flammable they are, actually
"burn", all liquids that can burn only do so once they're fully
vapourised. It's the vapour that allows oxygen to be available to
support the combustion.


Are you sure that's correct?

I think diesel fuel is atomized, not vaporized, to support combustion.
The fuel can burn because each microdrop is surrounded by an atmosphere
that contains oxygen.

Never mind. Additional consideration arrives at a conclusion that
supports your theory;
the microdrops evaporate into the atmosphere of the cylinder
immediately prior to combustion. "Evaporate" as in material ceases to
behave as a liquid and begins behaving as a gas.

Nope - sorry.

Ever hear of dust explosions in grain elevators? The dust in the air
is a form of vapor, not atomized and they never change state. There
are essentially in the same form from start to finish.

Same with gas and diesel.

Diesel is a vapor as is gasoline - at no point in the combustion
process does it become a gas until acted upon by heat and compression.

Atomizing is only a function of breaking up the larger vapor particles
into small parts - it never changes form into a "gas".

I thought that liquids can change state to solid or gas, depending on
temperature. Probably too simple an explanation for this discussion, and I'm
sure there are exceptions. Mercury for example.
Jim
ps:
Is Alberto heading your way? It missed central FL. Just a lot of rain here.


"Butch Davis" wrote in message
k.net...
There is a difference between a gas and a vapor? I thought there were
liguids, fluids, and gases. Fluids covering both bases? But with a
refrigeration background my thoughts are probably too simplistic.
Butch
"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On 12 Jun 2006 18:52:06 -0700, "
wrote:


wrote:
K. Smith wrote:

Only gases burn, no liquids no matter how flammable they are,
actually
"burn", all liquids that can burn only do so once they're fully
vapourised. It's the vapour that allows oxygen to be available to
support the combustion.


Are you sure that's correct?

I think diesel fuel is atomized, not vaporized, to support combustion.
The fuel can burn because each microdrop is surrounded by an atmosphere
that contains oxygen.

Never mind. Additional consideration arrives at a conclusion that
supports your theory;
the microdrops evaporate into the atmosphere of the cylinder
immediately prior to combustion. "Evaporate" as in material ceases to
behave as a liquid and begins behaving as a gas.

Nope - sorry.

Ever hear of dust explosions in grain elevators? The dust in the air
is a form of vapor, not atomized and they never change state. There
are essentially in the same form from start to finish.

Same with gas and diesel.

Diesel is a vapor as is gasoline - at no point in the combustion
process does it become a gas until acted upon by heat and compression.

Atomizing is only a function of breaking up the larger vapor particles
into small parts - it never changes form into a "gas".

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On 12 Jun 2006 18:52:06 -0700, "
wrote:


wrote:
K. Smith wrote:

Only gases burn, no liquids no matter how flammable they are, actually
"burn", all liquids that can burn only do so once they're fully
vapourised. It's the vapour that allows oxygen to be available to
support the combustion.


Are you sure that's correct?

I think diesel fuel is atomized, not vaporized, to support combustion.
The fuel can burn because each microdrop is surrounded by an atmosphere
that contains oxygen.

Never mind. Additional consideration arrives at a conclusion that
supports your theory;
the microdrops evaporate into the atmosphere of the cylinder
immediately prior to combustion. "Evaporate" as in material ceases to
behave as a liquid and begins behaving as a gas.

Nope - sorry.

Ever hear of dust explosions in grain elevators? The dust in the air
is a form of vapor, not atomized and they never change state. There
are essentially in the same form from start to finish.

Same with gas and diesel.

Diesel is a vapor as is gasoline - at no point in the combustion
process does it become a gas until acted upon by heat and compression.

Atomizing is only a function of breaking up the larger vapor particles
into small parts - it never changes form into a "gas".

You're likely right, my point was that a vapor behaves like a gas
rather than like a liquid.
But "diesel" isn't a vapor, nor is gasoline, prior to being introduced
into combustion.
You won't convince me that the diesel in my fuel tanks isn't a liquid,
no matter how many charts, graphs, and scientific facts are presented.
:-)

Also, in order for diesel to be atomized into a cylinder by the
injector pump it has to be liquid. Anybody who ever ran out of fuel
with a diesel engine knows that the pump won't move anything less dense
than a liquid.

So, in the nano-second that the atomized diesel is sprayed into the
cylinder and the droplets dispersed, why is it not a liquid? The little
microdrops will then evaporate into the
surrounding hot gas environment for another nano-second and behave like
a gas, and following the conversion of hydrocarbon molecules during
combustion the entire volume of the cylinder can then be truly and
officially classified as an "exhaust gas". Right?

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:00:14 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

Butch Davis wrote:
There is a difference between a gas and a vapor? I thought there were
liguids, fluids, and gases. Fluids covering both bases? But with a
refrigeration background my thoughts are probably too simplistic.
Butch


It's been a while since I took a chem course, but I thought gases are
normally in that state, while vapors arise from liquids. Gasoline, for
example, is normally a liquid, but it releases vapors.

Technically, gases expand and contract under pressure and spread
uniformly through a cylinder. Vapors don't do that.

Water vapor is the same. The rest of the gases (particularly nitrogen,
which makes up most of the atmosphere) suck up the water vapor and we call
it humidity. (water vapor also won't compress)

RCE

www.eisboch.com

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 15:57:43 +0000, Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:


Without getting into partial pressure, molecular changes, etc., the simple
truth of the internal combustion engine is that it burns a relatively
solid medium in liquid form - not gaseous in nature.

Unless you are using propane or natural gas. ;-)

"Butch Davis" wrote in message
k.net...
There is a difference between a gas and a vapor? I thought there were
liguids, fluids, and gases. Fluids covering both bases? But with a
refrigeration background my thoughts are probably too simplistic.
Butch
"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On 12 Jun 2006 18:52:06 -0700, "
wrote:


wrote:
K. Smith wrote:

Only gases burn, no liquids no matter how flammable they are,
actually
"burn", all liquids that can burn only do so once they're fully
vapourised. It's the vapour that allows oxygen to be available to
support the combustion.


Are you sure that's correct?

I think diesel fuel is atomized, not vaporized, to support combustion.
The fuel can burn because each microdrop is surrounded by an atmosphere
that contains oxygen.

Never mind. Additional consideration arrives at a conclusion that
supports your theory;
the microdrops evaporate into the atmosphere of the cylinder
immediately prior to combustion. "Evaporate" as in material ceases to
behave as a liquid and begins behaving as a gas.

Nope - sorry.

Ever hear of dust explosions in grain elevators? The dust in the air
is a form of vapor, not atomized and they never change state. There
are essentially in the same form from start to finish.

Same with gas and diesel.

Diesel is a vapor as is gasoline - at no point in the combustion
process does it become a gas until acted upon by heat and compression.

Atomizing is only a function of breaking up the larger vapor particles
into small parts - it never changes form into a "gas".

"Butch Davis" wrote in message
k.net...
There is a difference between a gas and a vapor? I thought there were
liguids, fluids, and gases. Fluids covering both bases? But with a
refrigeration background my thoughts are probably too simplistic.
Butch

Vapor is emitted from a liquid or solid (in it's normal state) at a specific
temperature and pressure. Flammable or combustible liquids start to emit
vapor at a specific flash point (temperature). It is the vapor that burns,
not the liquid. Combustible liquids such as hydraulic oil are not generally
considered dangerous unless reaching their flash point or atomizing
(increasing their overall surface area exposed to air in a relatively small
area) such as in the case of a pinhole leak in a hydraulic line under
pressure.

Gas has very low density and viscosity (compared to liquids) and may be
compounds or elements. They can be liquefied by pressure. Flammable
gasses (e.g. hydrogen, an element) have explosive limits (lower and upper)
depending on their percent by volume in air. There are know the their LEL
and UEL.

Dust can be explosive (if from a non inert product) when suspended in air
and falling within the LEL and UEL concentration.

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:00:14 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

Butch Davis wrote:
There is a difference between a gas and a vapor? I thought there
were
liguids, fluids, and gases. Fluids covering both bases? But with a
refrigeration background my thoughts are probably too simplistic.
Butch


It's been a while since I took a chem course, but I thought gases are
normally in that state, while vapors arise from liquids. Gasoline, for
example, is normally a liquid, but it releases vapors.

Technically, gases expand and contract under pressure and spread
uniformly through a cylinder. Vapors don't do that.

Water vapor is the same. The rest of the gases (particularly nitrogen,
which makes up most of the atmosphere) suck up the water vapor and we
call it humidity. (water vapor also won't compress)

RCE

www.eisboch.com

Where did you guys study physics? I really want to know so my grandkids
don't go there by accident.

del

"Del Cecchi" wrote in message
...

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:00:14 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

Butch Davis wrote:
There is a difference between a gas and a vapor? I thought there were
liguids, fluids, and gases. Fluids covering both bases? But with a
refrigeration background my thoughts are probably too simplistic.
Butch


It's been a while since I took a chem course, but I thought gases are
normally in that state, while vapors arise from liquids. Gasoline, for
example, is normally a liquid, but it releases vapors.

Technically, gases expand and contract under pressure and spread
uniformly through a cylinder. Vapors don't do that.

Water vapor is the same. The rest of the gases (particularly nitrogen,
which makes up most of the atmosphere) suck up the water vapor and we
call it humidity. (water vapor also won't compress)

RCE

www.eisboch.com

Where did you guys study physics? I really want to know so my grandkids
don't go there by accident.

del




Before I answer, please explain what bothers you about my statement. Is it
that water vapor does not compress? Or that humidity is not a function of
the amount of water vapor held by the various gases in the atmosphere?

Inquiring minds want to know .... :-)

RCE

www.eisboch.com