"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"basskisser" wrote in message
ups.com...

JIMinFL wrote:
"Don White" wrote in message
...
JIMinFL wrote:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...ers040908.html

What's your point?
If they helped bring that war to an early close shouldn't they be
honoured?

Honoring cowardly acts is not the American way. I'm surprised that
Canada
feels differently.

Cowardice had nothing to do with it. People went because they had the
balls to stand up to their political, religious and personal
convictions. They didn't like the reasoning for the war, realized it
was absurd that we were there, and didn't just lemming-like join
because everyone tells them that it's honorable to your country to go
kill a bunch of innocent people.


It had nothing to do with "joining". It was draft evasion. Those that
violated the law and ran to Canada or elsewhere were in the minority,
for sure, but they caused others to be called up to replace them who
otherwise may not have been called. If one was willing to take the time
to prove being a true conscientious objector, there were programs to
allow you to serve the country in other ways other than the military.
Even those of us in the military had limited options. My best friend
served in the fleet marines as a Navy corpsman, caring for the injured
and saving lives. He never carried a rifle. This was by choice because
he didn't believe in killing.

Most of us that were subject to the draft during the 60's were products
of the American culture of the 50's. That culture taught us that
military service was an honorable duty, along with patriotism and a
sense of unity of purpose. By the late 60's things had changed. The
drug culture was in full bloom, the sexual revolution was well underway
and the overall thinking was "me" rather than "us". So, I don't buy all
the crap about draft dodgers being generally categorized as being
spiritually and/or morally opposed to the Vietnam War or our
government's actions. They were, with some exceptions, more interested
in themselves and their personal interests. In a sense this selfish
philosophy produced a whole new group of lemmings.

RCE


If you (and I mean specifically YOU, not some theoretical "other") were
absolutely sure that a war was wrong, would you still serve?


At the time .... yes. It was a duty, not a choice.

RCE


I guess this describes what I see as duty:

"To be a patriot, one had to say, and keep on saying, " Our country, right
or wrong," and urge on the little war. Have you not perceived that that
phrase is an insult to the nation?"
-- Mark Twain, Glances at History

I believe it's treasonous to go along with the mob when the mob is wrong.

On Mon, 08 May 2006 00:44:23 GMT, Don White wrote:



Canada is doing diddley.....
read again...it's a group of BC activists..
quote "B.C. activists plan to erect a bronze sculpture honouring draft
dodgers, four decades after Americans opposed to the Vietnam War sought
refuge in Canada."

Canada is a true free country... if a bunch of flower granddads & moms
want to erect a statue they can do so. Canada isn't doing it..especially
as our new Prime Minister will be doing his best to be George W's new
little buddy.

Thanks for clarifying. I didn't think Canadians in general were that
screwed up.
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

On Mon, 08 May 2006 14:45:43 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"JIMinFL" wrote in message
. net...

"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
...
Harry Krause wrote:
Bert Robbins wrote:
Don White wrote:
JIMinFL wrote:
"Don White" wrote in message
...

JIMinFL wrote:

"Don White" wrote in message
...


JIMinFL wrote:


http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...ers040908.html
What's your point?
If they helped bring that war to an early close shouldn't they be
honoured?

Honoring cowardly acts is not the American way. I'm surprised that
Canada feels differently.
Do you think they were all cowards?
Pretty much.

Oh yeah....
re "Honoring cowardly acts is not the American way."
Do I dare point out that your current president hid from service?

What branch of your military did you serve in?



Bert, Bert, Bert...get off your high horse. You never served in a
shooting war.

Never said I was in any action. However, I was available to be a bullet
catcher when the phone rang and I needed to be at the assembly point
within hours.

What branch of the military did you serve in, Harry?
Excellent question


Why does it matter? New rules? Nobody can talk about this if they haven't
served?


I have to wonder, Doug, why you didn't ask Harry the same question when he
posed his question to Bert.
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

On Mon, 08 May 2006 12:00:57 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

JIMinFL wrote:
"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"JIMinFL" wrote in message
et...
"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
...
Harry Krause wrote:
Bert Robbins wrote:
Don White wrote:
JIMinFL wrote:
"Don White" wrote in message
...

JIMinFL wrote:

"Don White" wrote in message
...


JIMinFL wrote:


http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...ers040908.html
What's your point?
If they helped bring that war to an early close shouldn't they be
honoured?
Honoring cowardly acts is not the American way. I'm surprised that
Canada feels differently.
Do you think they were all cowards?
Pretty much.

Oh yeah....
re "Honoring cowardly acts is not the American way."
Do I dare point out that your current president hid from service?
What branch of your military did you serve in?


Bert, Bert, Bert...get off your high horse. You never served in a
shooting war.
Never said I was in any action. However, I was available to be a bullet
catcher when the phone rang and I needed to be at the assembly point
within hours.

What branch of the military did you serve in, Harry?
Excellent question

Why does it matter? New rules? Nobody can talk about this if they haven't
served?

I thought it was a fair question since Harry was belittling Bert's service.
Talk all you want Doug. It's a free country. Justify the actions of draft
dodgers if you want. Your freedom has been secured by the millions who have
helped to defend this country and make it free.



I'm not really belittling Bert's service, such as it was. I'm belittling
Bert. Bert tries to make a big deal that he "served" while others did
not, and therefore his right-wing commentary has some relevance. . But
serving stateside, as Bert did, is not the same as serving at the front
in an active war zone. That's for starters. More important, of course,
is that Bert is an uneducated, unsophisticated, right-wing horse's butt,
and therefore his opinions have about as much value as a pile of horse
manure.

Show us what you're made of, Harrry!

"Quadruple"???
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

"JohnH" wrote in message
...


Why does it matter? New rules? Nobody can talk about this if they haven't
served?


I have to wonder, Doug, why you didn't ask Harry the same question when he
posed his question to Bert.
John H


Because Bertie asks the question for a different reason than Harry does.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"JIMinFL" wrote in message
t...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"JIMinFL" wrote in message
et...

"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
...
Harry Krause wrote:
Bert Robbins wrote:
Don White wrote:
JIMinFL wrote:
"Don White" wrote in message
...

JIMinFL wrote:

"Don White" wrote in message
...


JIMinFL wrote:


http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...ers040908.html
What's your point?
If they helped bring that war to an early close shouldn't they
be honoured?

Honoring cowardly acts is not the American way. I'm surprised
that Canada feels differently.
Do you think they were all cowards?
Pretty much.

Oh yeah....
re "Honoring cowardly acts is not the American way."
Do I dare point out that your current president hid from service?

What branch of your military did you serve in?



Bert, Bert, Bert...get off your high horse. You never served in a
shooting war.

Never said I was in any action. However, I was available to be a
bullet catcher when the phone rang and I needed to be at the assembly
point within hours.

What branch of the military did you serve in, Harry?
Excellent question


Why does it matter? New rules? Nobody can talk about this if they
haven't served?

I thought it was a fair question since Harry was belittling Bert's
service. Talk all you want Doug. It's a free country. Justify the actions
of draft dodgers if you want. Your freedom has been secured by the
millions who have helped to defend this country and make it free.

If we were faced with something like WWII, I'd the lined up waiting for my
short haircut, just like you. But, you know as well as I do that some
military actions are done solely for political, personal, or pathological
reasons. The Spanish-American war, the Vietnam war, and the current Viagra
substitute in Iraq are all in this category. If some people believe it's
noble to serve even when the reasons are pathetic, they are free to do so.
But, not me.

Do you choose to obey only the laws that you support?

"JIMinFL" wrote in message
. net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"JIMinFL" wrote in message
t...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"JIMinFL" wrote in message
et...

"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
...
Harry Krause wrote:
Bert Robbins wrote:
Don White wrote:
JIMinFL wrote:
"Don White" wrote in message
...

JIMinFL wrote:

"Don White" wrote in message
...


JIMinFL wrote:


http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...ers040908.html
What's your point?
If they helped bring that war to an early close shouldn't they
be honoured?

Honoring cowardly acts is not the American way. I'm surprised
that Canada feels differently.
Do you think they were all cowards?
Pretty much.

Oh yeah....
re "Honoring cowardly acts is not the American way."
Do I dare point out that your current president hid from service?

What branch of your military did you serve in?



Bert, Bert, Bert...get off your high horse. You never served in a
shooting war.

Never said I was in any action. However, I was available to be a
bullet catcher when the phone rang and I needed to be at the assembly
point within hours.

What branch of the military did you serve in, Harry?
Excellent question


Why does it matter? New rules? Nobody can talk about this if they
haven't served?

I thought it was a fair question since Harry was belittling Bert's
service. Talk all you want Doug. It's a free country. Justify the
actions of draft dodgers if you want. Your freedom has been secured by
the millions who have helped to defend this country and make it free.

If we were faced with something like WWII, I'd the lined up waiting for
my short haircut, just like you. But, you know as well as I do that some
military actions are done solely for political, personal, or pathological
reasons. The Spanish-American war, the Vietnam war, and the current
Viagra substitute in Iraq are all in this category. If some people
believe it's noble to serve even when the reasons are pathetic, they are
free to do so. But, not me.

Do you choose to obey only the laws that you support?

I do actual work to change them, if possible. Since that takes forever, I
selectively break the law, as long as it affects nobody else. You do the
same.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"JIMinFL" wrote in message
. net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"JIMinFL" wrote in message
t...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"JIMinFL" wrote in message
et...

"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
...
Harry Krause wrote:
Bert Robbins wrote:
Don White wrote:
JIMinFL wrote:
"Don White" wrote in message
...

JIMinFL wrote:

"Don White" wrote in message
...


JIMinFL wrote:


http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...ers040908.html
What's your point?
If they helped bring that war to an early close shouldn't
they be honoured?

Honoring cowardly acts is not the American way. I'm surprised
that Canada feels differently.
Do you think they were all cowards?
Pretty much.

Oh yeah....
re "Honoring cowardly acts is not the American way."
Do I dare point out that your current president hid from service?

What branch of your military did you serve in?



Bert, Bert, Bert...get off your high horse. You never served in a
shooting war.

Never said I was in any action. However, I was available to be a
bullet catcher when the phone rang and I needed to be at the
assembly point within hours.

What branch of the military did you serve in, Harry?
Excellent question


Why does it matter? New rules? Nobody can talk about this if they
haven't served?

I thought it was a fair question since Harry was belittling Bert's
service. Talk all you want Doug. It's a free country. Justify the
actions of draft dodgers if you want. Your freedom has been secured by
the millions who have helped to defend this country and make it free.

If we were faced with something like WWII, I'd the lined up waiting for
my short haircut, just like you. But, you know as well as I do that some
military actions are done solely for political, personal, or
pathological reasons. The Spanish-American war, the Vietnam war, and the
current Viagra substitute in Iraq are all in this category. If some
people believe it's noble to serve even when the reasons are pathetic,
they are free to do so. But, not me.

Do you choose to obey only the laws that you support?

I do actual work to change them, if possible. Since that takes forever, I
selectively break the law, as long as it affects nobody else. You do the
same.

The person that filled your slot may have been killed in action. I'd say he
may have been affected by your decision to break the law.

"JIMinFL" wrote in message
. net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"JIMinFL" wrote in message
. net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"JIMinFL" wrote in message
t...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"JIMinFL" wrote in message
et...

"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
...
Harry Krause wrote:
Bert Robbins wrote:
Don White wrote:
JIMinFL wrote:
"Don White" wrote in message
...

JIMinFL wrote:

"Don White" wrote in message
...


JIMinFL wrote:


http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...ers040908.html
What's your point?
If they helped bring that war to an early close shouldn't
they be honoured?

Honoring cowardly acts is not the American way. I'm surprised
that Canada feels differently.
Do you think they were all cowards?
Pretty much.

Oh yeah....
re "Honoring cowardly acts is not the American way."
Do I dare point out that your current president hid from
service?

What branch of your military did you serve in?



Bert, Bert, Bert...get off your high horse. You never served in a
shooting war.

Never said I was in any action. However, I was available to be a
bullet catcher when the phone rang and I needed to be at the
assembly point within hours.

What branch of the military did you serve in, Harry?
Excellent question


Why does it matter? New rules? Nobody can talk about this if they
haven't served?

I thought it was a fair question since Harry was belittling Bert's
service. Talk all you want Doug. It's a free country. Justify the
actions of draft dodgers if you want. Your freedom has been secured by
the millions who have helped to defend this country and make it free.

If we were faced with something like WWII, I'd the lined up waiting for
my short haircut, just like you. But, you know as well as I do that
some military actions are done solely for political, personal, or
pathological reasons. The Spanish-American war, the Vietnam war, and
the current Viagra substitute in Iraq are all in this category. If some
people believe it's noble to serve even when the reasons are pathetic,
they are free to do so. But, not me.

Do you choose to obey only the laws that you support?

I do actual work to change them, if possible. Since that takes forever, I
selectively break the law, as long as it affects nobody else. You do the
same.

The person that filled your slot may have been killed in action. I'd say
he may have been affected by your decision to break the law.


Actually, I didn't break the law. I didn't get called up. However, I
would've gone to prison before I would've served.

Tell me this: What year was it when you figured out that the war was a
mistake?

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"basskisser" wrote in message
ups.com...

JIMinFL wrote:
"Don White" wrote in message
...
JIMinFL wrote:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...ers040908.html

What's your point?
If they helped bring that war to an early close shouldn't they be
honoured?

Honoring cowardly acts is not the American way. I'm surprised that
Canada
feels differently.

Cowardice had nothing to do with it. People went because they had the
balls to stand up to their political, religious and personal
convictions. They didn't like the reasoning for the war, realized it
was absurd that we were there, and didn't just lemming-like join
because everyone tells them that it's honorable to your country to go
kill a bunch of innocent people.


It had nothing to do with "joining". It was draft evasion. Those that
violated the law and ran to Canada or elsewhere were in the minority,
for sure, but they caused others to be called up to replace them who
otherwise may not have been called. If one was willing to take the
time to prove being a true conscientious objector, there were programs
to allow you to serve the country in other ways other than the
military. Even those of us in the military had limited options. My
best friend served in the fleet marines as a Navy corpsman, caring for
the injured and saving lives. He never carried a rifle. This was by
choice because he didn't believe in killing.

Most of us that were subject to the draft during the 60's were products
of the American culture of the 50's. That culture taught us that
military service was an honorable duty, along with patriotism and a
sense of unity of purpose. By the late 60's things had changed. The
drug culture was in full bloom, the sexual revolution was well underway
and the overall thinking was "me" rather than "us". So, I don't buy
all the crap about draft dodgers being generally categorized as being
spiritually and/or morally opposed to the Vietnam War or our
government's actions. They were, with some exceptions, more interested
in themselves and their personal interests. In a sense this selfish
philosophy produced a whole new group of lemmings.

RCE


If you (and I mean specifically YOU, not some theoretical "other") were
absolutely sure that a war was wrong, would you still serve?


At the time .... yes. It was a duty, not a choice.

RCE


I guess this describes what I see as duty:

"To be a patriot, one had to say, and keep on saying, " Our country, right
or wrong," and urge on the little war. Have you not perceived that that
phrase is an insult to the nation?"
-- Mark Twain, Glances at History

I believe it's treasonous to go along with the mob when the mob is wrong.


It isn't that black and white. Most of Congress, both sides, originally
voted for the invasion of Iraq. The Vietnam War started as a noble cause.

Can you imagine a country where a serious call to arms is met with
individual decisions to respond or not, based on their approval or
disapproval of the cause?

RCE