snip

In this state, the present governor and his legislature have sold out to
the
unions. Make rules that raise the price of construction on public
contracts
sky high. Pay levels higher than 95% of jobs requiring a college
education.
Bill


I think your value system may need a tune-up.

College degree -verses- Technical and union jobs: most of the trades require
technical school and apprenticeship. If you look at schooling and lost
opportunity costs the pay should be about the same. Unlike the college
degree, the trades are able to do something useful right out of school.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for the folks that claim - "I have a college
degree but the only job I can get is flipping burgers." Many college degrees
are useless; the trades should get more. Most employers really could care
less if a potential candidate has written a masters thesis on "the
contributions of Mary Shelly" to the transition of modern literature - or
some similar earthshaking accomplishment. They want someone who has the
right attitude and a good grasp of the basics of whatever it is they are
doing.

If you are envious of the wages made by construction workers, go get a job
in the field - If you think it is just cushy high paid jobs like holding
slow/stop signs, go for it! I have worked around construction workers on
and off for the last twenty years. It is my opinion that the earn their
wages.

Mark Browne

Mark Browne wrote:

snip

In this state, the present governor and his legislature have sold out to
the
unions. Make rules that raise the price of construction on public
contracts
sky high. Pay levels higher than 95% of jobs requiring a college
education.
Bill


I think your value system may need a tune-up.

College degree -verses- Technical and union jobs: most of the trades require
technical school and apprenticeship. If you look at schooling and lost
opportunity costs the pay should be about the same. Unlike the college
degree, the trades are able to do something useful right out of school.

There is a big difference between a highly skilled tradesman, and an
unskilled laborer. In a free market economy, your wages should be in
proportion to your demand in society. Skilled tradesmen are in high
demand, therfore they should be paid accordingly.

Where the unions are a problem is when they elevate the wages of un- or
underskilled laborers on the coattails of the skilled tradesmen. While a
heavy equipment operator, for example, should be paid well for his job,
the guy waving the flags, is a dime a dozen commodity, and should not
be.



I don't have a lot of sympathy for the folks that claim - "I have a college
degree but the only job I can get is flipping burgers." Many college degrees
are useless;

Like liberal arts.


the trades should get more. Most employers really could care
less if a potential candidate has written a masters thesis on "the
contributions of Mary Shelly" to the transition of modern literature - or
some similar earthshaking accomplishment. They want someone who has the
right attitude and a good grasp of the basics of whatever it is they are
doing.

They want the skills to do the job. How they got them should be
irrelevant.

Dave

Dave Hall wrote:


There is a big difference between a highly skilled tradesman, and an
unskilled laborer. In a free market economy, your wages should be in
proportion to your demand in society. Skilled tradesmen are in high
demand, therfore they should be paid accordingly.

Well, Dave, you should be a fan of the unionized construction industry,
because it is a true representative of a free market economy. At
contract negotiations time, representatives of both sides sit down and
work out a deal for wages, hours, welfare and working conditions. While
strikes and lockouts occur, they are rare in the construction industry.
The more skilled trades have hourly rates that are substantially higher
than those in the less-skilled trades.


Where the unions are a problem is when they elevate the wages of un- or
underskilled laborers on the coattails of the skilled tradesmen. While a
heavy equipment operator, for example, should be paid well for his job,
the guy waving the flags, is a dime a dozen commodity, and should not
be.


A unionized heavy equipment operator typically is a member of the
Operating Engineers union. A flagman typically is a member of the
Laborers union. The unions do not negotiate together, and the flagman's
package is not a percentage of the engineer's package. Further, that
laborer may only be the flagman for a couple of days -after all, someone
has to be the flagman- and then go back to far more strenuous work.

The Laborers union, by the way, is running a substantial number of
training schools for its members, and many of its skills have been
recognized as ones that can be taught through a typical union
apprenticeship program. Most pollution abatement work, for example, is
performed by unionized laborers who receive many months of specialized
training before they don their gear to remove asbestos, hazardous waste,
and suchlike.

Tell me, Dave, a man who goes into an old building and removes
asbestos...what do you think he should be paid an hour? More than you
make, one hopes, eh? I mean, what are you? A software pussy?



I don't have a lot of sympathy for the folks that claim - "I have a college
degree but the only job I can get is flipping burgers." Many college degrees
are useless;

Like liberal arts.

A "liberal arts" degree provides you with the courses you need to
understand the world and to think in the abstract. You, obviously, could
have gained some benefit from liberal arts courses, since you are,
without question, the leading "Stepford Conservative" in this newsgroup.

Yes, a bit of time immersed in the trivium and the quadrivium might have
helped you. You might have learned something about grammar, rhetoric,
logic, math, geometry, music and even astronomy. But then, of course,
you'd have a liberal arts degree.

You're really a horse's ass, Dave, and incapable of independent and
original thought.



the trades should get more. Most employers really could care
less if a potential candidate has written a masters thesis on "the
contributions of Mary Shelly" to the transition of modern literature - or
some similar earthshaking accomplishment.

Really? I'm in the preliminary stages of hiring another writer. I'd
enjoy reading a candidate's paper on Mary Shelley and her impact on
modern literature, even though the kind of writing I need done isn't
"literary." But, then, I have two liberal arts degrees. Oh...the
chairman and CEO of one of my major clients, a $7 billion company...he
has a liberal arts degree, too. And a main contact of mine at another
client's headquarters, why, gosharoonie, he was a don at Oxford, and
tutored in Irish lit. I got the account after meeting the fellow at a
social gathering and engaging in a spirited discussion about Brendan Behan.

Here's a great Behan quote that has some relevance for the thug who is
our current attorney general:

"When I came back to Dublin I found I was courtmartialled in my absence
and sentenced to death in my absence, so I said they could shoot me in
my absence."





--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


Tell me, Dave, a man who goes into an old building and removes
asbestos...what do you think he should be paid an hour? More than you
make, one hopes, eh? I mean, what are you? A software pussy?


Cripes, Harry. Don't you pay attention? :-)

1) The guy should be paid like a janitor because asbestos is not dangerous.
It is portrayed as dangerous by liberals who don't appreciate the blessings
we've received from big corporations.

2) Dave is "in telecommunications" somehow. My guess: When you sign up for a
new phone toy like caller ID, he's the guy who's supposed to "program" it
for your phone number, assuming he's not busy on his CWA-designated coffee
break. You know...CWA...like the unions he doesn't like.

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


Tell me, Dave, a man who goes into an old building and removes
asbestos...what do you think he should be paid an hour? More than you
make, one hopes, eh? I mean, what are you? A software pussy?


Cripes, Harry. Don't you pay attention? :-)

1) The guy should be paid like a janitor because asbestos is not dangerous.
It is portrayed as dangerous by liberals who don't appreciate the blessings
we've received from big corporations.

2) Dave is "in telecommunications" somehow. My guess: When you sign up for a
new phone toy like caller ID, he's the guy who's supposed to "program" it
for your phone number, assuming he's not busy on his CWA-designated coffee
break. You know...CWA...like the unions he doesn't like.




Dave is incredibly representive of the plague of Stepford Conservatives
who are destroying our society. He's badly educated, he doesn't really
read, he doesn't think for himself, and he accepts virtually everything
his Republican leaders tell him is true.

You know, it's kind of funny. I thought Clinton was a flaming ass for
doing what he did to himself with his extracurricular sex life, and I
said so many times. But I never felt nervous about the country or its
future with him in charge. Now we have an absolute idiot in the White
House, perhaps the most dangerous man who has ever been there, a man who
doesn't read and doesn't understand, and who has the intellectual
curiosity of snail, and he's pooched about everything he has touched
and...he's placed us in harm's way in a big way...and all the
Conservatives can do is try to convince us he's a great leader.

Are they that blind? Are they even dumber than I think they are? Or are
they so ashamed of Bush they are overcompensating?

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


Are they that blind? Are they even dumber than I think they are? Or are
they so ashamed of Bush they are overcompensating?


It's a common human foible to defend your decisions, even if they're hideous
ones. Used to see it all the time with customers when I was in the audio
business, and later in the investment business, especially with males.

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...


I don't have a lot of sympathy for the folks that claim - "I have a
college
degree but the only job I can get is flipping burgers." Many college
degrees
are useless;

Like liberal arts.


Why's that, Dave? Because the phrase contains the word "liberal"?

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...


I don't have a lot of sympathy for the folks that claim - "I have a
college
degree but the only job I can get is flipping burgers." Many college
degrees
are useless;

Like liberal arts.


Why's that, Dave? Because the phrase contains the word "liberal"?




Stephen Hawking is the product of a liberal arts education, with
collegiate studies in math, physics, natural science and cosmology.

Dalai Lama Tenzin Gyatso, one of my personal heroes, holds the Tibetan
academic degree of Geshe Lharampa, roughly equivalent in Western terms
to a Ph.D. in Buddhist metaphysics. He's a liberal arts graduate.

From a website about liberal arts education:

"A liberal arts education is not designed as training for a specific
occupation. What it does do better than any other type of college or
university preparation is sharpen analytical and communication skills,
teach students how to learn, and provide students with a body of
knowledge that can be applied to larger contexts. Thus, it is no
surprise that the leaders in most career fields are liberal arts
graduates whose specialized training occurred in graduate or
professional school."


Our man Dave obviously had a ****-poor education.





--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

"Mark Browne" wrote in message
news:a77ab.375435$cF.111982@rwcrnsc53...
snip

In this state, the present governor and his legislature have sold out to
the
unions. Make rules that raise the price of construction on public
contracts
sky high. Pay levels higher than 95% of jobs requiring a college
education.
Bill


I think your value system may need a tune-up.

College degree -verses- Technical and union jobs: most of the trades
require
technical school and apprenticeship. If you look at schooling and lost
opportunity costs the pay should be about the same. Unlike the college
degree, the trades are able to do something useful right out of school.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for the folks that claim - "I have a
college
degree but the only job I can get is flipping burgers." Many college
degrees
are useless; the trades should get more. Most employers really could care
less if a potential candidate has written a masters thesis on "the
contributions of Mary Shelly" to the transition of modern literature - or
some similar earthshaking accomplishment. They want someone who has the
right attitude and a good grasp of the basics of whatever it is they are
doing.

If you are envious of the wages made by construction workers, go get a job
in the field - If you think it is just cushy high paid jobs like holding
slow/stop signs, go for it! I have worked around construction workers on
and off for the last twenty years. It is my opinion that the earn their
wages.

Mark Browne



Building trades apprentices get paid while going to school. So very little
lost opportunity cost vs. the full time college student. And most union
jobs are not skilled jobs. What training is required for prison guard
before they are hired? Service Employee's International: Janitors, clerks,
etc. Laborer in the building trade $25-25 / hour. How much training for
manning a shovel?
Bill

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Mark Browne" wrote in message
news:a77ab.375435$cF.111982@rwcrnsc53...
snip

In this state, the present governor and his legislature have sold out
to
the
unions. Make rules that raise the price of construction on public
contracts
sky high. Pay levels higher than 95% of jobs requiring a college
education.
Bill


I think your value system may need a tune-up.

College degree -verses- Technical and union jobs: most of the trades
require
technical school and apprenticeship. If you look at schooling and lost
opportunity costs the pay should be about the same. Unlike the college
degree, the trades are able to do something useful right out of school.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for the folks that claim - "I have a
college
degree but the only job I can get is flipping burgers." Many college
degrees
are useless; the trades should get more. Most employers really could
care
less if a potential candidate has written a masters thesis on "the
contributions of Mary Shelly" to the transition of modern literature -
or
some similar earthshaking accomplishment. They want someone who has the
right attitude and a good grasp of the basics of whatever it is they are
doing.

If you are envious of the wages made by construction workers, go get a
job
in the field - If you think it is just cushy high paid jobs like holding
slow/stop signs, go for it! I have worked around construction workers
on
and off for the last twenty years. It is my opinion that the earn their
wages.

Mark Browne



Building trades apprentices get paid while going to school. So very
little
lost opportunity cost vs. the full time college student. And most union
jobs are not skilled jobs. What training is required for prison guard
before they are hired? Service Employee's International: Janitors,
clerks,
etc. Laborer in the building trade $25-25 / hour. How much training for
manning a shovel?
Bill


Go for it. I'll bet you would last a few hours before you keeled over; you
might even pocket a few bucks before you washed out! After you are done with
your little adventure, come back and we can talk about whether you earned it
or not.

For that matter, I would like to see you work a day doing wipe-downs in a
car wash. You would be one tired pupply if you made it through the day. I'm
guessing you would not.

Mark Browne