"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:09:33 GMT, Shortwave Sportfishing
wrote:

http://www.break.com/movies/suffrage.html

I couldn't believe it.

I know that this is probably preaching to the choir... since I know
your wife is a teacher, but education is now defined as the ability to
pass a standardized test. It has nothing to do with ability to reason
or accrued knowledge.

A recent newspaper article found that, locally, of 350 applicants,
only 23 of 350 applicants with a high school diploma had adequate
skills in reading, writing, and math to begin entry level college
classes.... but having a high school diploma, we know they can pass
that test! Right?


I wish someone would explain to me why this is true, and exactly what's
happened since I left high school in 1970. It's rather depressing.

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 16:25:21 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:09:33 GMT, Shortwave Sportfishing
wrote:

http://www.break.com/movies/suffrage.html

I couldn't believe it.

I know that this is probably preaching to the choir... since I know
your wife is a teacher, but education is now defined as the ability to
pass a standardized test. It has nothing to do with ability to reason
or accrued knowledge.

A recent newspaper article found that, locally, of 350 applicants,
only 23 of 350 applicants with a high school diploma had adequate
skills in reading, writing, and math to begin entry level college
classes.... but having a high school diploma, we know they can pass
that test! Right?


I wish someone would explain to me why this is true, and exactly what's
happened since I left high school in 1970. It's rather depressing.

I can tell you exactly what it is. Liberal "learning should be fun
with no consequences" and it's more important to socialize our
children than teach them things like - oh say, math. It's much more
important to obtain another music teacher than a math teacher.

Witness the idiot superintendent down in Killingly who, this is not a
joke, thinks it's degrading to give out "performance based marks" thus
came up with a "credit" system with no consequences. If the child
passes a course, he/she is given "credit" - if not, then nothing on
the record to indicate that the child failed to pass. His reasoning
is that grades are demeaning - that the fact that one kid gets an A
and one gets a C is demoralizing to the C student and thus decreasing
to that child's efforts to learn.

Those are the idiots we have to deal with in the education system.

Is this a plaid skirt school?

On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 18:08:01 GMT, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 16:25:21 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

I wish someone would explain to me why this is true, and exactly what's
happened since I left high school in 1970. It's rather depressing.


You don't know depressing until you deal with the lack of student
preparation on a daily basis.

And it is true because some politicians ran on a, "them unions and
teacher's is scum" platform. Now, with politically correct
"accountability," administrators can "prove" "success" through test
scores. The average person thinks these tests are helpful..... they
aren't.

Just goes to show that whether one wishes to be dishonest or not...
figures don't lie, but liars can figure....

The biggest difference between the graduating class of 1970 and today
is that the administration of the classrooms (from 1958-1970 for
example) was handled by the classroom teacher and she/he was given the
mandate that the student learn the course content. They knew their job
and they went about discipline and teaching with an eye towards
student success. They had administrative support from principals that
had intestinal fortitude.

Today that power is concentrated in the offices of administration and
judged by "standardized" norms.... which, by the way, we can now prove
doesn't work by the figures demonstrating a miserably low rate of
student preparedness..... but if we only look at those test scores,
we're doing a great job.....

They were also supported by parents who gave a damn. Discipline, in my
county's schools, is not a teacher prerogative. The teachers write a
'referral' which goes to the principal. The principal determines the
punishment, if any.

To imply there is no place for standardized tests makes no sense. There are
good tests and bad. If I am testing high school seniors with an 8th grade
level test, I'm obviously doing something stupid.
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 17:59:14 GMT, Shortwave Sportfishing
wrote:

Those are the idiots we have to deal with in the education system.

Don't we collectively have an obligation to either deal with
incompetent officials, or continue to live with them?

The pen is mightier than the sword but you're preaching to the choir
here. Get the locals stirred up, and change the system. In a
democracy we get the government we deserve.

On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 16:25:21 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:09:33 GMT, Shortwave Sportfishing
wrote:

http://www.break.com/movies/suffrage.html

I couldn't believe it.

I know that this is probably preaching to the choir... since I know
your wife is a teacher, but education is now defined as the ability to
pass a standardized test. It has nothing to do with ability to reason
or accrued knowledge.

A recent newspaper article found that, locally, of 350 applicants,
only 23 of 350 applicants with a high school diploma had adequate
skills in reading, writing, and math to begin entry level college
classes.... but having a high school diploma, we know they can pass
that test! Right?


I wish someone would explain to me why this is true, and exactly what's
happened since I left high school in 1970. It's rather depressing.

Well, for one we now spend all of our time and effort trying to
educate the uneducable. Was a time when we allowed and expected those
who did not want to be in school to leave and those who could not
learn were excluded. Now we dumb down everything to their level. This
includes those who would have been institutionalized in 1970 due to
extremely low IQs and learning disbilities. The current trend ( and
the law "Individuals with Disabilities Education Act") is much better
for most of these groups, but try learning in a class of 20 where two
autistic children are banging their heads against the walls while 2 or
3 retarded children are being attended to by their personal teacher
aids. The class size is much smaller than in 1970 (20 kids vs. 32
kids) and the staffing levels are way up ( a teacher and a couple of
aids assigned to specific children) but the instruction is designed to
a much lower level and the distractions are extreme.

Dave Hall

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:39:03 -0400, JohnH penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:



They were also supported by parents who gave a damn.
You make a good point... and one that I should have addressed. Busing
destroyed the community schools and created a remote location that no
longer carried any oversight from the home or local community. A
recipe for disaster.

Another point to ponder is the number of kids that do not receive
supervision from at least one parent... and this happens when both
parents MUST work to pay the bills. Another recipe for disaster.

Actually no. The problem is not supervision while the parents are working
but the lack of involvement by the parent(s) in their childrens education.
Without the parent(s) attending conferences with the teacher(s) and making
sure their children keep on top of their homework the child is often
destined to fail. All this can be done even with both parents working.

How many kids who are failing in school have mothers or fathers who do not
work and *are* are home? I would guess a fair amount.

If the parents do not care.........why should the child?

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
. ..

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:39:03 -0400, JohnH penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:



They were also supported by parents who gave a damn.
You make a good point... and one that I should have addressed. Busing
destroyed the community schools and created a remote location that no
longer carried any oversight from the home or local community. A
recipe for disaster.

Another point to ponder is the number of kids that do not receive
supervision from at least one parent... and this happens when both
parents MUST work to pay the bills. Another recipe for disaster.

Actually no. The problem is not supervision while the parents are working
but the lack of involvement by the parent(s) in their childrens education.
Without the parent(s) attending conferences with the teacher(s) and making
sure their children keep on top of their homework the child is often
destined to fail. All this can be done even with both parents working.

How many kids who are failing in school have mothers or fathers who do not
work and *are* are home? I would guess a fair amount.

If the parents do not care.........why should the child?


My story. Or, rather, my grandkid and daughter's story.

My daughter is the mother of two great, young boys. The oldest finishing
third grade.
He's a normal, healthy, regular eight year old who enjoys bikes, video
games, baseball, tree forts and general screwing around after school
building creations from his dad's supply of 2x4's and scrap plywood.

In school he's an average student ... B's and C's ... with an occasional A
that is cause for celebration and praise. He's quiet ... not a discipline
problem at all, and is well liked by his friends. He's of normal intellect
.... no Einstein by any means, but he's not a dummy either. He's a normal kid
with tendencies toward being a bit reflective, thoughtful and maybe a bit
sensitive. He also has a genuine creative mind that is reflected in his
homemade "inventions". He admits to a tendency to "daydream" at times in
school, (a past time that I remember all too well through all my years in
school).

This year, his 23 year old, third grade teacher suggested to my daughter at
a parent/teacher meeting that she suspected he may have ADS and might
benefit from medication to help him focus more on school work. My daughter
was shocked at first, but over time the teacher continued pressure that
medication would help him achieve his "full potential". Remember now, this
is third grade!

After the third or forth discussion, the teacher enlisted the aid of a
school consoler who also favored a further investigation regarding the ADS
diagnosis by the 23 year old teacher. My daughter was becoming emotionally
distraught because she wanted to do the best for her kid, but was reluctant
to start medicating him unless it was absolutely necessary. It got to the
point were she asked the opinion of Mrs.E. and I. Me being me, advised her
to tell the teacher and consoler to take a hike and let the kid be a kid.
After all, I pointed out, the grades the teacher was giving him didn't
appear to be consistent with a kid with a serious learning disability. I
suggested that maybe he could get more A grades by applying more effort, but
we are only talking third grade here, not a senior in high school. My
uneducated, nonprofessional opinion was to let the kid enjoy his childhood
as long as everything was in general balance. The teacher, however, was
now making my daughter feel guilty for not doing what was in the best
interest of the kid. It really became a messy, stressful and emotional
issue. In addition, veiled and subtle references were given to
investigations of parental neglect resulting in some extreme cases.
Recognizing that my advise was not going to help calm her down now that the
issue was getting out of hand, we suggested she have the kid tested and
evaluated by someone other than the 23 year old teacher.

It was agreed to have the kid tested by a school psychologist. Meanwhile, my
daughter consulted with her pediatrician who basically told her the same
thing I had told her .... tell them to take a hike ... the kid's fine. A
meeting was held with the psychologist, the teacher and the school consoler
with my daughter and her husband. The psychologist announced that the
results of the IQ and other tests indicated that the kid was perfectly
normal. The teacher, basically ignoring this, started debating ADS with the
psychologist in front of my daughter and son-in-law and continued to
recommend medication for ADS for the kid. She also, and for the first time,
acknowledged that she was under treatment herself for adult ADS and went on
to explain how it helped her. She even started suggesting what medication
to take and what not to take.

My daughter politely but firmly told her to take a hike, her decision was
made, was final and any further discussion would be with the superintendent
of schools in attendance. That was about 2 months ago. The 23 year old
teacher's latest report is that the kid is doing fine, no problems, average
grades and being a typical, normal third grader.

I am glad my kid raising days are over. The public school system is totally
out of control nowadays, and was heading that way when our kids were young.
Our two oldest attended public schools. The youngest went to a private
school. Fortunately, all survived and have their heads screwed on straight.

RCE

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 16:25:21 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:09:33 GMT, Shortwave Sportfishing
wrote:

http://www.break.com/movies/suffrage.html

I couldn't believe it.

I know that this is probably preaching to the choir... since I know
your wife is a teacher, but education is now defined as the ability to
pass a standardized test. It has nothing to do with ability to reason
or accrued knowledge.

A recent newspaper article found that, locally, of 350 applicants,
only 23 of 350 applicants with a high school diploma had adequate
skills in reading, writing, and math to begin entry level college
classes.... but having a high school diploma, we know they can pass
that test! Right?


I wish someone would explain to me why this is true, and exactly what's
happened since I left high school in 1970. It's rather depressing.

Well, for one we now spend all of our time and effort trying to
educate the uneducable. Was a time when we allowed and expected those
who did not want to be in school to leave and those who could not
learn were excluded. Now we dumb down everything to their level. This
includes those who would have been institutionalized in 1970 due to
extremely low IQs and learning disbilities. The current trend ( and
the law "Individuals with Disabilities Education Act") is much better
for most of these groups, but try learning in a class of 20 where two
autistic children are banging their heads against the walls while 2 or
3 retarded children are being attended to by their personal teacher
aids. The class size is much smaller than in 1970 (20 kids vs. 32
kids) and the staffing levels are way up ( a teacher and a couple of
aids assigned to specific children) but the instruction is designed to
a much lower level and the distractions are extreme.

Dave Hall

that plus the fact that the schools all focus on sending the kid to college
to learn. 20% of the population is college material. In the 1950's when I
went to school (graduated HS in 1961) there were shop classes, and other
vocational classes as well as technical vocation HS's. We need these to
schools and classes to keep kids in school and interested in learning. We
need auto mechanics and other vocational arts people for a majority of the
jobs.

On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 21:53:57 GMT, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:39:03 -0400, JohnH penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:



They were also supported by parents who gave a damn.
You make a good point... and one that I should have addressed. Busing
destroyed the community schools and created a remote location that no
longer carried any oversight from the home or local community. A
recipe for disaster.

Another point to ponder is the number of kids that do not receive
supervision from at least one parent... and this happens when both
parents MUST work to pay the bills. Another recipe for disaster.


Discipline, in my
county's schools, is not a teacher prerogative. The teachers write a
'referral' which goes to the principal. The principal determines the
punishment, if any.


This is my point, exactly. It is no longer dealt with by the teacher,
as it should be... immediately and forcefully, but is sent up the
administrative ladder for latter handling subject to the politically
correct decisions made by administrators that do *NOT* want unhappy
parents. I have decades of horror stories surrounding the idiocy of
letting administrators (not) handle deportment.

I've worked for school systems that had a quota system. Once the
administration expelled [xx%] of [xyz demographic] students, no more
could be expelled during that school year.... no matter *what* they
did. The only "out" was having the cops come and haul them away....

This year I have been teaching for 33 years and I think, sometimes, I
must have seen it all. I will no longer teach in Public School because
you are given a job and no tools or authority. I have very good
experiences teaching in industry and I greatly enjoy the Community
College. They seem to understand their purpose and do what is
necessary to make the student successful... that is what it is all
about. It isn't always about keeping student and parents happy.... it
is about learning.... and that isn't always, "happy, happy, joy, joy."

To imply there is no place for standardized tests makes no sense. There are
good tests and bad. If I am testing high school seniors with an 8th grade
level test, I'm obviously doing something stupid.

That isn't the point, but I'll build on what you have offered, since
it relates to the hard solutions that administrators are not willing
(or perhaps able) to make...

What is your solution to testing high school seniors with an 8th grade
level test and having them fail it?

If administrators (of all levels) lack sufficient male genitalia to
make those incredibly hard decisions and lack the political backing to
take the totally politically INcorrect actions... well, then what?

IMHO... you end up right where we are.....

Gene, I can't disagree with anything you've said. I'm sure there are school
systems using 8th grade level tests to pass seniors, if they use any test
at all. If the kids can't pass a legitimate test, as a senior, then they
shouldn't get a diploma. I don't think it's fair to the system to let the
kids repeat grades year after year.

Normally, from what I've seen, the kids who 'fail' in my school have to
work hard to do so. They are in a constant battle with teachers and
principals and, if lucky, parents, who want them to succeed. But, many of
them choose to do nothing, and succeed at doing nothing. When they repeat a
grade, they get the same results.

What you say about expulsions is similar to what occurs here. Schools are
'rated' based on many things, but the number of suspensions, expulsions,
and other punishments are also counted. Therefore, principals (even the
female ones) are reluctant to take action.

The system needs work. Too many people think that 99% of the problem is the
teachers. Even Socrates would have had a hard time teaching a turnip!
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 20:31:53 -0400, "RCE" wrote:


" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
...

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:39:03 -0400, JohnH penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:



They were also supported by parents who gave a damn.
You make a good point... and one that I should have addressed. Busing
destroyed the community schools and created a remote location that no
longer carried any oversight from the home or local community. A
recipe for disaster.

Another point to ponder is the number of kids that do not receive
supervision from at least one parent... and this happens when both
parents MUST work to pay the bills. Another recipe for disaster.

Actually no. The problem is not supervision while the parents are working
but the lack of involvement by the parent(s) in their childrens education.
Without the parent(s) attending conferences with the teacher(s) and making
sure their children keep on top of their homework the child is often
destined to fail. All this can be done even with both parents working.

How many kids who are failing in school have mothers or fathers who do not
work and *are* are home? I would guess a fair amount.

If the parents do not care.........why should the child?


My story. Or, rather, my grandkid and daughter's story.

My daughter is the mother of two great, young boys. The oldest finishing
third grade.
He's a normal, healthy, regular eight year old who enjoys bikes, video
games, baseball, tree forts and general screwing around after school
building creations from his dad's supply of 2x4's and scrap plywood.

In school he's an average student ... B's and C's ... with an occasional A
that is cause for celebration and praise. He's quiet ... not a discipline
problem at all, and is well liked by his friends. He's of normal intellect
... no Einstein by any means, but he's not a dummy either. He's a normal kid
with tendencies toward being a bit reflective, thoughtful and maybe a bit
sensitive. He also has a genuine creative mind that is reflected in his
homemade "inventions". He admits to a tendency to "daydream" at times in
school, (a past time that I remember all too well through all my years in
school).

This year, his 23 year old, third grade teacher suggested to my daughter at
a parent/teacher meeting that she suspected he may have ADS and might
benefit from medication to help him focus more on school work. My daughter
was shocked at first, but over time the teacher continued pressure that
medication would help him achieve his "full potential". Remember now, this
is third grade!

After the third or forth discussion, the teacher enlisted the aid of a
school consoler who also favored a further investigation regarding the ADS
diagnosis by the 23 year old teacher. My daughter was becoming emotionally
distraught because she wanted to do the best for her kid, but was reluctant
to start medicating him unless it was absolutely necessary. It got to the
point were she asked the opinion of Mrs.E. and I. Me being me, advised her
to tell the teacher and consoler to take a hike and let the kid be a kid.
After all, I pointed out, the grades the teacher was giving him didn't
appear to be consistent with a kid with a serious learning disability. I
suggested that maybe he could get more A grades by applying more effort, but
we are only talking third grade here, not a senior in high school. My
uneducated, nonprofessional opinion was to let the kid enjoy his childhood
as long as everything was in general balance. The teacher, however, was
now making my daughter feel guilty for not doing what was in the best
interest of the kid. It really became a messy, stressful and emotional
issue. In addition, veiled and subtle references were given to
investigations of parental neglect resulting in some extreme cases.
Recognizing that my advise was not going to help calm her down now that the
issue was getting out of hand, we suggested she have the kid tested and
evaluated by someone other than the 23 year old teacher.

It was agreed to have the kid tested by a school psychologist. Meanwhile, my
daughter consulted with her pediatrician who basically told her the same
thing I had told her .... tell them to take a hike ... the kid's fine. A
meeting was held with the psychologist, the teacher and the school consoler
with my daughter and her husband. The psychologist announced that the
results of the IQ and other tests indicated that the kid was perfectly
normal. The teacher, basically ignoring this, started debating ADS with the
psychologist in front of my daughter and son-in-law and continued to
recommend medication for ADS for the kid. She also, and for the first time,
acknowledged that she was under treatment herself for adult ADS and went on
to explain how it helped her. She even started suggesting what medication
to take and what not to take.

My daughter politely but firmly told her to take a hike, her decision was
made, was final and any further discussion would be with the superintendent
of schools in attendance. That was about 2 months ago. The 23 year old
teacher's latest report is that the kid is doing fine, no problems, average
grades and being a typical, normal third grader.

I am glad my kid raising days are over. The public school system is totally
out of control nowadays, and was heading that way when our kids were young.
Our two oldest attended public schools. The youngest went to a private
school. Fortunately, all survived and have their heads screwed on straight.

RCE


You are condemning the entire public school system based on the actions of
one brand new teacher? That makes little sense to me.

I would have suggested you get the child in a different classroom. The
teacher, in my opinion, was wrong to even mention a possibility of ADS (I
don't know what that is, although I'm very familiar with ADD -attention
deficit disorder. In this county teachers cannot even suggest such a thing
to parents. Teachers can talk to the counselors and principals, and they
can discuss behavior problems, but they are not to be amateur
psychologists.

Your condemnation of public schools because of a 23 year old isn't
justified. Actually your blanket condemnation of public schools isn't
justified. Go sit in a high school B-C Calculus class and remember that the
kids there are a product of public schools.
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************