Per Larry C:
replace gaskets (a job you can do yourself if you
have the time) ,

There's definitely some technique in replacing gaskets. Part of it is cutting
the adhesive with an accelerator called Kotol.

I once did the neck and arm seals on one of my old Bare dry suits in less than
45 minutes - using a bunch of magnets and the hood of my car with the neck seal
and squatting on a deck using a couple of ricotta cheese containers to do the
wrist seals.
--
PeteCresswell

Per Brian Nystrom:
Latex socks are vastly superior to ankle seals.

I finally got socks, but a reservation still nags at me.
Namely, if I flood the suit I'll be unable to drain
water at the ankle cuffs.
--
PeteCresswell

"(PeteCresswell)" wrote in message
...
Per Brian Nystrom:
Latex socks are vastly superior to ankle seals.

I finally got socks, but a reservation still nags at me.
Namely, if I flood the suit I'll be unable to drain
water at the ankle cuffs.
--
PeteCresswell

I did an experiment with my flyfishing waders. Not entirely the same as a
drysuit, but the similarity is that the waders also had fixed booties. The
rumors in the flyfishing circles is that, if you fall in the river with
waders on, the water will fill your waders and you will not be able to swim,
and consequently will drown. I jumped into a swimming pool and tested the
theories; you can read the report here http://tinyurl.com/rkd3p

With waders, you can easily swim if they are filled with water, with any
amount of water in them. In fact, its a bit easier to move if they have
large volumes of water in them, as the waders don't constrict your body so
much. HOWEVER (and this is a big however), you cannot overappreciate how
hard it is to climb out of the water with waders that are even half-full of
water! I was completely unable to climb up the ladder out of the shallow end
of the pool, and also completely unable to lay on my belly on the edge of
the pool and roll onto land, which is the motion someone would use to get
back in a raft. I could not even sit on the edge of the pool and lift one
leg out of the water.

Although I used to use a drysuit all the time, I never realized the danger
of getting a massive leak and having it fill with water. I am a strong
proponent of booties rather than ankle gaskets, as the whole reason for a
drysuit IMHO is to create as warm, dry an environment as possible, and that
includes my feet. However, knowing what I know now, I think I'd wear a waist
belt with my drysuit to prohibit enough water from getting in to fill the
legs even partway. Draining at the ankles, as Pete suggests, would be
another option, but I think I'd rather stay warm with the booties and wear a
preventative belt instead.

--riverman

"riverman" wrote in message ...

With waders, you can easily swim if they are filled with water, with any
amount of water in them. In fact, its a bit easier to move if they have
large volumes of water in them, as the waders don't constrict your body so
much.

Yowp. I misstated, not having reread my experiment report before I posted
here. With waders, it is EASIER to swim when they are dry, as the water
pressure keeps the fabric pressed tightly to your body and you have no
interference. Once they have some water in them, they 'billow' and its like
trying to run with oversized jeans on. Not impossible, but harder.

--riverman

riverman wrote:
"riverman" wrote in message ...

With waders, you can easily swim if they are filled with water, with any
amount of water in them. In fact, its a bit easier to move if they have
large volumes of water in them, as the waders don't constrict your body so
much.

Yowp. I misstated, not having reread my experiment report before I posted
here. With waders, it is EASIER to swim when they are dry, as the water
pressure keeps the fabric pressed tightly to your body and you have no
interference. Once they have some water in them, they 'billow' and its like
trying to run with oversized jeans on. Not impossible, but harder.

--riverman

I would expect that being in a pool, and being in fast running WW would
also make a huge difference. The moving water would be pulling you down
at a much higher rate than the weight of gravity keeping you from
getting out of the pool. HYY

"Hanta-Yo-Yo" wrote in message
oups.com...

riverman wrote:
"riverman" wrote in message
...

With waders, you can easily swim if they are filled with water, with
any
amount of water in them. In fact, its a bit easier to move if they have
large volumes of water in them, as the waders don't constrict your body
so
much.

Yowp. I misstated, not having reread my experiment report before I posted
here. With waders, it is EASIER to swim when they are dry, as the water
pressure keeps the fabric pressed tightly to your body and you have no
interference. Once they have some water in them, they 'billow' and its
like
trying to run with oversized jeans on. Not impossible, but harder.

--riverman

I would expect that being in a pool, and being in fast running WW would
also make a huge difference. The moving water would be pulling you down
at a much higher rate than the weight of gravity keeping you from
getting out of the pool. HYY


I'm not sure of the meaning of your post, HAA. Are you stating that a full
drysuit will 'pull you under'?

When you are immersed in the water, you have neutral buoyancy...drysuit or
not, full or not, and moving water or not. If your suit is full of water,
you have much higher mass, therefore you cannot change direction, catch an
eddy, or hold on to a handhold so easily, but there shouldn't be any new
forces trying to submerge you.

Moving water doesn't 'pull you down', it only moves you around. The
increased mass would equally tend to keep you from being submerged by a
swirly as it would prohibit you swimming to the surface when you were under.
The primary deleterious effect of having water in your drysuit is that you
cannot get out of the water, and that you are a large mass on the end of a
throwline.

--riverman

riverman wrote:
"Hanta-Yo-Yo" wrote in message
oups.com...

I would expect that being in a pool, and being in fast running WW would
also make a huge difference. The moving water would be pulling you down
at a much higher rate than the weight of gravity keeping you from
getting out of the pool. HYY


I'm not sure of the meaning of your post, HAA. Are you stating that a full
drysuit will 'pull you under'?

When you are immersed in the water, you have neutral buoyancy...drysuit or
not, full or not, and moving water or not. If your suit is full of water,
you have much higher mass, therefore you cannot change direction, catch an
eddy, or hold on to a handhold so easily, but there shouldn't be any new
forces trying to submerge you.

Moving water doesn't 'pull you down', it only moves you around. The
increased mass would equally tend to keep you from being submerged by a
swirly as it would prohibit you swimming to the surface when you were under.
The primary deleterious effect of having water in your drysuit is that you
cannot get out of the water, and that you are a large mass on the end of a
throwline.

Wasn't it Larry Cable who had a bad swim a couple of years ago when his
drysuit filled with water?

I was thinking that since, as a kayaker, I have a tight fitting neoprene
seal (in the form of a spraydeck) around my waste, that should keep the
water out of the lower part of my suit.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

Larry C wrote:

Booties are great and I'll never own a drysuit without them. They make
the suit much easier to get into and your feet stay dry and much
warmer. I have latex booties on the bibs and have not had a durablity
issue with them, but I am careful. If I had it done today, I think I
would opt for the goretex or goretex clones socks instead of the latex.

Now there's a tip I hadn't thought about! That sure takes away some of
the limitations of latex! Thanks Larry!

I had KoKotat install the relief zipper and booties while they were
doing some warrenty repair for me. There are a couple of companies that
advertize on BT that replace gaskets (a job you can do yourself if you
have the time) , they may do the zipper also. I assume that all of
these companies are US based.

Yeah, I'm looking for EU based alternatives, mainly because it's cheaper
and less hassle.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

"Wilko" wrote in message
...
riverman wrote:

Moving water doesn't 'pull you down', it only moves you around. The
increased mass would equally tend to keep you from being submerged by a
swirly as it would prohibit you swimming to the surface when you were
under. The primary deleterious effect of having water in your drysuit is
that you cannot get out of the water, and that you are a large mass on
the end of a throwline.

Wasn't it Larry Cable who had a bad swim a couple of years ago when his
drysuit filled with water?

Possibly, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that the problem wasn't in being
'pulled under' as much as it was with being unable to change direction. And
being unable to pull himself out of the water.


I was thinking that since, as a kayaker, I have a tight fitting neoprene
seal (in the form of a spraydeck) around my waste, that should keep the
water out of the lower part of my suit.


Yep, that should do it. Good thing, too. As a rafter, I never appreciated
the importance of having some sort of waistband; but now that I know the
impact of having a leak in a drysuit, I'd strongly encourage any rafters who
wear drysuits to also include a wading belt to seal off the lower half.
Imagine trying to get pulled into a boat when you weigh over 500 pounds.
Hmmm, that makes me think of another good use for a relief zipper....its one
way to let out all the water down to your crotch!

--riverman

riverman wrote:
"Wilko" wrote in message
...
riverman wrote:

Moving water doesn't 'pull you down', it only moves you around. The
increased mass would equally tend to keep you from being submerged by a
swirly as it would prohibit you swimming to the surface when you were
under. The primary deleterious effect of having water in your drysuit is
that you cannot get out of the water, and that you are a large mass on
the end of a throwline.

Wasn't it Larry Cable who had a bad swim a couple of years ago when his
drysuit filled with water?

Possibly, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that the problem wasn't in being
'pulled under' as much as it was with being unable to change direction. And
being unable to pull himself out of the water.


I was thinking that since, as a kayaker, I have a tight fitting neoprene
seal (in the form of a spraydeck) around my waste, that should keep the
water out of the lower part of my suit.


Yep, that should do it. Good thing, too. As a rafter, I never appreciated
the importance of having some sort of waistband; but now that I know the
impact of having a leak in a drysuit, I'd strongly encourage any rafters who
wear drysuits to also include a wading belt to seal off the lower half.
Imagine trying to get pulled into a boat when you weigh over 500 pounds.
Hmmm, that makes me think of another good use for a relief zipper....its one
way to let out all the water down to your crotch!

--riverman

I did read some acct where a kayaker had a real dangerous incident
occur with a dry suit, where it had torn, and he could not recover from
a wet exit.

Your correct riverman, when you say you are equal mass with the
surrounding water, but that could put you on the bottom of the river,
bouncing along downstream and no way to resist the force of the water,
or swim to the surface. You have become a part of the river, and where
the river goes, so go you. Not a problem for the rest of the water,
just for you if you still feel the need to breathe.

The problem with the open top waders, is that the waders act like a
drift anchor, and forms a resistant force equal to the amount of water
displaced, and the velocity of the water, and I believe this force
would increase logrithmically. In other words it would get very large,
very fast. No one holding on to a throw line would be able to pull you
out. You would eventually reach some sort of terminal velocity, that
would however be going alot faster than you would feel comfortable
with, and probably taking you where you did not intend to go. At least
not quite yet.

I corresponded with various Dry suit designers, and ended up with a two
piece Palm for the exact reasons you are discussing. The wide waist
seal compartmentalizes the suit like a bulkhead. Also the suit can be
cut to a closer fit to minimalize the amount of volume inside the suit,
ie less water volume. You can vent water out of the suit if necessary,
and with ankle seals and booties. Cold wet feet can be a problem, not
being able to breathe a bigger problem!

With the two piece design, there are also no zippers to leak and need
replacing. And most important, You can go # 1 and # 2 without being
Houdini!

Now as far as the suit that Wilko has, it still sounds like an
excellent find. I would just have a strategy, like keeping a knife
handy if you had to cut some vent holes...HYY