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That time of year again!
wrote in message oups.com... JimH wrote: wrote in message oups.com... Dan Krueger wrote: Harry Krause wrote: Don White wrote: The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through Sunday. Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00. Is it just me..or does that seem a bit excessive? http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp It should be free. It should be free but many of these shows are run by large exhibition companies employing union labor at exorbitant rates. Traffic control, ticket sales, security, etc. are all union controlled. I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a union electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it in yourself and you would be charged the same $50. Simple forklift delivery of your booth materials cost hundreds. Even worse, they would put their hand out looking for a tip while they are on the clock. Pretty sad. Check your bill. That simple forklift delivery was almost certainly billed to you by the show organizers, not directly by the union. The difference in the wage paid to a union fork lift operator (maybe $10 for a 15-minute delivery) and an illegal alien doing the same job (maybe $1.50 for a 15-minute delivery) isn't going to run the bill up to "hundreds of dollars". If the bill is hundreds of dollars, it's the show organizers or the display rental company that is profiting. Our local boat show rentals include basic 15-amp power to the booth and there is no restriction about plugging in you own display------------however, if you need more power than 15 amps or require specialized routing of wires etc there would be additional charges and it isn't unreasonable to pay a $50 minimum for a skilled electrician. Or is it actually your opinion that the difference between a $15/hr unionized concession stand worker (sellling $600 worth of junk food with a gross margin of over $500 per hour) and a $5.75/hr "guest worker" making almost the same sales- but not quite because the mental translation from Spanish to English takes a moment to do- would mean that everybody should be able to get into the show free? Are you really saying that the only reason there's an admission charge at all is to cover the difference in cost between workers smart enough to engage in collective bargaining with management and workers dumb enough or desperate enough to be exploited? You may be on to something. Let's kick out the unions everywhere. No more admission fees to state fairs, amusement parks, movie theaters, concerts, plays, boat shows, home shows, car shows, etc. I had no idea that the only reason admission to all forms of entertainment isn't completely complimentary was due to the difference between a living wage and a slave wage. Let them eat stale nachos, I wanna get in free. :-) My experience with setting up for boat shows has been that it is the display companies, not the union laborers, who rape and pillage. Example: A few shows back I arrived at the booth to find a very, very short table had been delivered. We had ordered a table with 40" legs so that one can either stand or sit behind it at various points during the day. I was looking at something that was too short to sit behind with a standard chair- let alone a stool- and would have placed our display far too low for comfortable viewing by show patrons. I went to the show office and complained, where I was informed that the table delivered to the booth was exactly what the publisher had requested. It wasn't of course, but any time there's a monopoly in place- as at a trade show- you can argue until you are three shades of blue in the face and get nowhere. I had to agree to pay over $100 to have the table removed and the proper table delivered, and had to sign a purchase agreement for that fee at the conclusion of the discussion. What burned my butt, big time, was when one of the company representatives showed up at the booth and asked, "Is this the place that needs the 40-inch table?" When I said yes, the company representative turned the little table on its side, *extended the telescoping legs to make it 40-inches high* (!) and said, "Have a nice show!" No union employee in sight, just an asshole who could have told me, when I complained, that the legs were adjustable. When the next show came around, I went out to IKEA and bought a table, two chairs, a carpet, etc for just about what Rape and Pillage Display wanted for a short term rental. We just used that gear for the 4th time in January- so I guess I have to thank that free enterprise crook who screwed me out of the hundred bucks for the leg adjustment. That ripoff incident inspired me to save some money- and the $100 the company virtually stole from me has cost that outfit close to $1000 in lost revenue so far. But you're right about at least one thing if not more. I'm sure the show display rental companies would be able to keep a bit more of their unconscionable fees if they could hire a greater number of illegal, unqualfied, or desperate workers. It's easy for any company or organization charging obscene prices to blame it on "the unions"- but in reality boat show display pricing is more the result of absurd profiteering in a monopolized market. Welcome back to the darkside Chuck. We knew you would come back. ;-) Dark side? I thought we were discussing whether extortionary pricing for boat show display and setup services was a result of union laborers earning $5-10 an hour more than the guys sent out from rent-the-homeless agencies vs. display companies charging 5, 10, or 15 times their actual costs (union or not) for goods and services supplied? :-) And here I thought you went on a tangent about unions and the market. Silly me. ;-) |
That time of year again!
JimH wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... JimH wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message . .. JimH wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Dan Krueger wrote: Harry Krause wrote: JimH wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... JimH wrote: " JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message ... "Harry Krause" wrote in message . .. Dan Krueger wrote: Harry Krause wrote: Don White wrote: The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through Sunday. Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00. Is it just me..or does that seem a bit excessive? http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp It should be free. It should be free but many of these shows are run by large exhibition companies employing union labor at exorbitant rates. Traffic control, ticket sales, security, etc. are all union controlled. I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a union electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it in yourself and you would be charged the same $50. Simple forklift delivery of your booth materials cost hundreds. Even worse, they would put their hand out looking for a tip while they are on the clock. Pretty sad. Poor Dan. He had to pay a contractor who paid his workers a decent wage with benefits. What do *you* do that's worth $50? Dan speaks the truth Harry. That is the way it goes at the International Exposition Center in Cleveland. I am sure other unionized convention centers are the same BTW: I have all respect for union electricians, plumbers, laborers, masons, ironworkers and equipment operators, especially those working construction. But you have to admit that unions many times (as in the case Dan posted) the same unions take advantage of circumstances. How so? The union elecricians work for a contractor. The contractor has the arrangement with the convention center. The contractor has negotiated rates with the convention center. BS. The union, not the contractor, wrote the rules. Sorry, but virtually all union rates in the construction trades are the result of negotiations between representatives of the unions and representatives of the union contractors for whom they work. The contractor then negotiates his rates with his customers. It's called collective bargaining. "Collective bargaining" says it all. The individual either can't think for himself or can't earn his own wage on his own merit. He has to be grouped with a variety of worker - good and bad - to get the same pay, the same raises, the same treatment, etc. Still sad. And what was it that you do that's worth $50? Are you saying that a $50 to plug in an extension cord by a union electrician at a convention center is fair? What I am saying is that the worker is not getting paid $50 for that; the contractor-employer is. And thus the rub. ;-) So how do you justify the charge? I'm not an electrical contractor. I presume he charges a rate that covers his direct and indirect labor expenses, overhead, and a small profit. Ah, but the rate is mandated per the contract with the union hall......not by the contractor. You keep on missing the point Harry. Focus! So do all contractors have the same direct and indirect labor expenses, overhead and *small* profit margins? Does it cost each one of them (or any of them) $50 for their union electrician to plug in an extension cord? Could this activity safely be done by the exhibitor? Why does it seem like I am having deja vu for the 1000th time? Is it possible that this same union vs. non-union discussion has been beat into the ground more than a 1000 times in rec.boats? Does anyone really believe the pro union people are going to say, "you know, you are right, unions are responsible for all that ails America" or the non-union supporters are going to say "you know, you are right, unions are responsible for creating a level playing field between workers and management"? What does anyone expect to gain from repeating the same discussion one more time? -- Reggie ************************************************** ************* That's my story and I am sticking to it. ************************************************** ************* |
That time of year again!
On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:54:01 -0500, Reggie Smithers
wrote: Why does it seem like I am having deja vu for the 1000th time? Is it possible that this same union vs. non-union discussion has been beat into the ground more than a 1000 times in rec.boats? Does anyone really believe the pro union people are going to say, "you know, you are right, unions are responsible for all that ails America" or the non-union supporters are going to say "you know, you are right, unions are responsible for creating a level playing field between workers and management"? What does anyone expect to gain from repeating the same discussion one more time? Good morning, Reggie! -- 'Til next time, John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** |
That time of year again!
Harry Krause wrote:
Reggie Smithers wrote: JimH wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... JimH wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message . .. JimH wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Dan Krueger wrote: Harry Krause wrote: JimH wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... JimH wrote: " JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message ... "Harry Krause" wrote in message . .. Dan Krueger wrote: Harry Krause wrote: Don White wrote: The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through Sunday. Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00. Is it just me..or does that seem a bit excessive? http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp It should be free. It should be free but many of these shows are run by large exhibition companies employing union labor at exorbitant rates. Traffic control, ticket sales, security, etc. are all union controlled. I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a union electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it in yourself and you would be charged the same $50. Simple forklift delivery of your booth materials cost hundreds. Even worse, they would put their hand out looking for a tip while they are on the clock. Pretty sad. Poor Dan. He had to pay a contractor who paid his workers a decent wage with benefits. What do *you* do that's worth $50? Dan speaks the truth Harry. That is the way it goes at the International Exposition Center in Cleveland. I am sure other unionized convention centers are the same BTW: I have all respect for union electricians, plumbers, laborers, masons, ironworkers and equipment operators, especially those working construction. But you have to admit that unions many times (as in the case Dan posted) the same unions take advantage of circumstances. How so? The union elecricians work for a contractor. The contractor has the arrangement with the convention center. The contractor has negotiated rates with the convention center. BS. The union, not the contractor, wrote the rules. Sorry, but virtually all union rates in the construction trades are the result of negotiations between representatives of the unions and representatives of the union contractors for whom they work. The contractor then negotiates his rates with his customers. It's called collective bargaining. "Collective bargaining" says it all. The individual either can't think for himself or can't earn his own wage on his own merit. He has to be grouped with a variety of worker - good and bad - to get the same pay, the same raises, the same treatment, etc. Still sad. And what was it that you do that's worth $50? Are you saying that a $50 to plug in an extension cord by a union electrician at a convention center is fair? What I am saying is that the worker is not getting paid $50 for that; the contractor-employer is. And thus the rub. ;-) So how do you justify the charge? I'm not an electrical contractor. I presume he charges a rate that covers his direct and indirect labor expenses, overhead, and a small profit. Ah, but the rate is mandated per the contract with the union hall......not by the contractor. You keep on missing the point Harry. Focus! So do all contractors have the same direct and indirect labor expenses, overhead and *small* profit margins? Does it cost each one of them (or any of them) $50 for their union electrician to plug in an extension cord? Could this activity safely be done by the exhibitor? Why does it seem like I am having deja vu for the 1000th time? Is it possible that this same union vs. non-union discussion has been beat into the ground more than a 1000 times in rec.boats? Does anyone really believe the pro union people are going to say, "you know, you are right, unions are responsible for all that ails America" or the non-union supporters are going to say "you know, you are right, unions are responsible for creating a level playing field between workers and management"? What does anyone expect to gain from repeating the same discussion one more time? Well, the alternative was to discuss why you insist on keeping your identity, your home town, your occupation, the kind of boat you have, and where you boat a deep dark secret. But, then, that's been discussed at least 1000 times, eh? :} It is not a deep dark secret, many people know the answers to all of your questions, but feel free to discuss whatever, this is a non moderated NG. Harry, doesn't it seem silly to do the same battle over and over again. -- Reggie ************************************************** ************* That's my story and I am sticking to it. ************************************************** ************* |
That time of year again!
Dan Krueger wrote: Harry Krause wrote: Don White wrote: The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through Sunday. Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00. Is it just me..or does that seem a bit excessive? http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp It should be free. It should be free but many of these shows are run by large exhibition companies employing union labor at exorbitant rates. Traffic control, ticket sales, security, etc. are all union controlled. I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a union electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it in yourself and you would be charged the same $50. Simple forklift delivery of your booth materials cost hundreds. Even worse, they would put their hand out looking for a tip while they are on the clock. Pretty sad. Show me ONE PIECE of evidence that says you have to hire a union electrician to plug in an extension cord. All of this urban myth stuff has gotten everyone in a tizzy, so show some damned proof that that is the rule.....or quit. |
That time of year again!
RCE wrote: wrote in message oups.com... Dan Krueger wrote: "Collective bargaining" says it all. The individual either can't think for himself or can't earn his own wage on his own merit. He has to be grouped with a variety of worker - good and bad - to get the same pay, the same raises, the same treatment, etc. Still sad. "Collective bargaining" is the only means by which the worker can even begin to establish a level playing field. Now, there are folks who don't think anybody except the guy with capital invested in a private company has any right to any sort of fair or equitable business/employment climate and that such a capital investment grants a license to exploit any and all dumb or desperate enough to work for the firm- and those who feel that way are entitled to do so. Otherwise, the power of the employer to withhold pay is merely offset by the power of the collective bargainers to withhold services. Seems pretty fair to me. One side uses every trick in the book to pay as little as it can get by with, and the other uses every trick in the book to get paid as much as it possibly can. Yup, that's fair. Not exclusively advantageous to management and capital- but fair. Without collective bargaining, it is the employer, not the worker, who ignores merit and does not differentiate between good and bad workers. Without collective bargaining, everybody's job is constantly at risk if some guy happens along who will whore out for a buck an hour less. Tried hard to stay out of this, but Chuck, you did me in ... Where do people like yourself get these concepts and models of business in your head? The majority of people are employed by small businesses. Every small business I've ever dealt with or been associated with absolutely do NOT have the employment philosophies that you describe. Employees who make themselves valuable through their skills and dedication to their responsibilities are cherished and rewarded to the max the company can afford. Conversely, the slackers, assuming they can meet the minimum job requirements, are not compensated at the same level. Seems fair to me. The only place in industry where I consistently saw the employees becoming a "billet" number with no consideration given to individual talent or drive was in big corporations with a unionized work force. RCE Many small businesses are not unionized, but you will typically hear the owners and management GD'ing unions with the same venom one would expect from a company that was in the midst of an intense labor negotiation. The challenge for them is that the unions set the bar. It's the fear of losing their best employees to a union shop that forces many employers to pay good wages to top talent. Small business owners can keep the unions out by paying a living wage, treating employees fairly, offering competitive benefits, etc. As long as the SB's offer a decent wage and working environment, the union organizers will make very little headway among the employees. When a business, large or small, treats employees poorly then under our labor laws those employees have the right to organize and bargain collectively for better wages or conditions. Seems fair to me. :-) Also fair is the concept that the owners and managers of a business need to provide an excellent product or service in the marketplace. A business should succeed because it is briliantly and energetically managed, not because it can find an unlimited supply of exploitable labor. When you have the CEO taking $10 million a year and half of the production workers eligible for food stamps or other public assistance, there's a problem. In this example, that CEO might complain that a union shop would "cost him" $1mm a year in increased wages......(leaving himself only $9mm all in, all done). First guy fired in such a case should be the CEO, as its his/her job to position the company and its product as more desirable than the competition. Superior value is an easier sale, almost always, than questionable value and a cheap price. The trade show model is unique. There is no competition. XYZ Display has the exclusive right to rent backdrops or fixtures and furniture, and provide other services to exhibitors. Prices are not set by natural activity in the marketplace, but rather by an arbitrary guesstimate based upon "How badly can we rip the exhibitors, who have no other source to turn to, and still fill up the hall?" In the example we have been using in this thread, charging a Boat Show exhibitor $100 for 5-minutes labor to plug in an electrical cord and then blaming the outrageous fee on "union wages" is just crazy (and hoping to reduce expenses by using cheaper labor when nearly all of the $100 charge is pure markup to start with is just greedy)------- but look how many people buy into it! I'm sure the trade show companies will continue to use the "union wages" dodge as long as it remains effective. |
That time of year again!
Reggie Smithers wrote:
Why does it seem like I am having deja vu for the 1000th time? Is it possible that this same union vs. non-union discussion has been beat into the ground more than a 1000 times in rec.boats? Does anyone really believe the pro union people are going to say, "you know, you are right, unions are responsible for all that ails America" or the non-union supporters are going to say "you know, you are right, unions are responsible for creating a level playing field between workers and management"? What does anyone expect to gain from repeating the same discussion one more time? What's really funny is that certain posters will exclaim with glee that the unions are losing ground by the day and membership is at an all time low.....yet they still blame unions for all the ills in the American/Canadian manufacturing sector. Seems a lot of power is wielded by a select few. |
That time of year again!
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... NOYB wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... JimH wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message . .. Dan Krueger wrote: Harry Krause wrote: Don White wrote: The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through Sunday. Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00. Is it just me..or does that seem a bit excessive? http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp It should be free. It should be free but many of these shows are run by large exhibition companies employing union labor at exorbitant rates. Traffic control, ticket sales, security, etc. are all union controlled. I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a union electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it in yourself and you would be charged the same $50. Simple forklift delivery of your booth materials cost hundreds. Even worse, they would put their hand out looking for a tip while they are on the clock. Pretty sad. Poor Dan. He had to pay a contractor who paid his workers a decent wage with benefits. What do *you* do that's worth $50? Dan speaks the truth Harry. That is the way it goes at the International Exposition Center in Cleveland. I am sure other unionized convention centers are the same So? You go to a prime convention center, you want work done, you deal with the contractors with whom the convention center has contracted. That's how it is in the real world. He's not talking about "wanting work done". He's talking about getting charged $50 for plugging in your own extension cord. Yes, well, the convention center management sets the rules. The rules are dictated to them by the union. |
That time of year again!
wrote in message oups.com... Many small businesses are not unionized, but you will typically hear the owners and management GD'ing unions with the same venom one would expect from a company that was in the midst of an intense labor negotiation. The challenge for them is that the unions set the bar. It's the fear of losing their best employees to a union shop that forces many employers to pay good wages to top talent. Small business owners can keep the unions out by paying a living wage, treating employees fairly, offering competitive benefits, etc. As long as the SB's offer a decent wage and working environment, the union organizers will make very little headway among the employees. When a business, large or small, treats employees poorly then under our labor laws those employees have the right to organize and bargain collectively for better wages or conditions. Seems fair to me. :-) I agree with everything above except for the first sentence. If you don't mind a correction , most ... not "many" small businesses are non-union and the subject of unions rarely comes up, so there's no need to GD them. In 30 years of business, we lost one, repeat, one person to a union job and that was because of the "Big Dig" project in Boston. They needed welders badly and were recruiting them right out of our shop, meaning they slipped in the back door and started handing out leaflets. I couldn't blame the guy - his package was incredible - far more than anything any company, big or small, could match at the time. Fortunately, of all the welders and fab people we had he was the only one that decided to go and within a year regretted it. RCE |
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