Harry,

If I feel seriously ill, I would hope my wife would insist I seek medical
help, even if I wanted to ignore the problem. I have had some minor
physical health problems that I wanted to ignore. I went to the doctor just
to get my wife to leave me alone, she can be a real pain when she wants to
be. I would assume most doctors, therapists and social workers suggest 12
Step and or Support Groups for both mental and physical chronic illnesses as
a supplement to other treatment.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Wm Shakespeare Smithers wrote:
JohnH,

There are 12 step groups for just about everything. I looked in Google
for a 12 step group for NPD and found there are support groups for the
victims of NPD, but those with the illness rarely seek help. One of the
problems mentioned is those with NPD would always try to take advantage
the other members of the group.


More amateur hour? If you fell seriously ill with multiple symptoms and
had no idea what was causing them, would you seek professional help or
would you start playing guessing games with the data on internet sites?

Sometimes a 12-step program will provide the support an addict needs, but
that addict also will need therapy and other assistance. 12-stepping is no
substitute for therapy.




--
Named al Qaeda Recruiter of the Year: George W. Bush

Harry,

I have nothing to hide nor consider myself a coward, but I hate to tell you
this, having lunch with you would not be high on my list of priorities. I
would be interesting to see how your real life persona matches up with your
UseNet persona.

I have always followed the advice of Internet Experts in reference to
privacy and security. It is not cowardly to be prudent in basic security
issues. I can't imagine why I would ignore their advice, just so you and I
can have lunch.

Your outburst yesterday highlights the importance of following the advice of
the experts.


"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
John H. wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 09:55:43 -0500, "Wm Shakespeare Smithers" The
WordSmith wrote:

JohnH,

There are 12 step groups for just about everything. I looked in Google
for a 12 step group for NPD and found there are support groups for the
victims of NPD, but those with the illness rarely seek help. One of the
problems mentioned is those with NPD would always try to take advantage
the other members of the group.

I did find many links that warned people to be concerned if someone with
NPD makes a threat. It appears that NPD can be very dangerous if they
feel threatened.

When I first started using the Internet, my ISP warned about Security
and Privacy issues. I started using an anonymous ID for Internet
Security and financial info security, not personal security, after
reading about NPD I am glad I have always followed the advice of the
experts. Hell would freeze over before I would give any personal info
to someone with NPD.



Other than the occasional 'Kevin' post, I don't think I've ever seen such
a hissy-fit thrown in a
news group. What is even more surprising is the lack of support Harry
received from his followers.
Apparently his followers saw through your ploy about the same time Harry
took the bait.

I expect he'll be 'cowed-down' for a while.
--
John Herring

Hope your Christmas is Spectacular!
...and your New Year even Better!


Header changed to reflect a bit of right-wing pig piling.

Oh, I don't need nor do I look for "support" in newsgroups, as you fellows
seem to. I did get a couple of emails that giggled along with me.

I did notice that once I insisted on knowing Smithers' real name before I
met him for lunch, he quieted right down. The only conclusion can be that
he really is a coward, or he has something to hide.



--
Named al Qaeda Recruiter of the Year: George W. Bush

Yom Kipper is a great concept, it allows all Jews to make amends to G_d for
all their sins against G_d and just as importantly Jews must make amends to
anyone they faulted, before Yom Kipper. As Jon Stewart says "What a great
religion, one day of atonement and you are forgiven, TOP THAT".

Since the Catholic faith is a spin off of Judaism, I always thought the
priest would require similar amends for sins against man.
I did a quick Google and my understanding is basically correct.
from: http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm As I said, for
all of their faults, Christianity is one hell of a concept. ; )
"Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to
repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of
someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires
as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his
relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does
not remedy all the disorders sin has caused.62 Raised up from sin, the
sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more
to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his
sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance."

1460 The penance the confessor imposes must take into account the penitent's
personal situation and must seek his spiritual good. It must correspond as
far as possible with the gravity and nature of the sins committed. It can
consist of prayer, an offering, works of mercy, service of neighbor,
voluntary self-denial, sacrifices, and above all the patient acceptance of
the cross we must bear. Such penances help configure us to Christ, who alone
expiated our sins once for all. They allow us to become co-heirs with the
risen Christ, "provided we suffer with him."63


The satisfaction that we make for our sins, however, is not so much ours
as though it were not done through Jesus Christ. We who can do nothing
ourselves, as if just by ourselves, can do all things with the cooperation
of "him who strengthens" us. Thus man has nothing of which to boast, but all
our boasting is in Christ . . . in whom we make satisfaction by bringing
forth "fruits that befit repentance." These fruits have their efficacy from
him, by him they are offered to the Father, and through him they are
accepted by the Father.64
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Wm Shakespeare Smithers wrote:
Most 12 step groups require some kind of reasonable amends, and it might
be just apologizing or it might be more detailed. I am not sure what a
priest would do, but again, my guess is if the person could make some
kind of amends, he would probably be asked to do that as part of his
"penance".

I am just guessing, maybe some of our Catholic friends who sin can
provide us with more info.

Do you agree that it is amazing how practical the Bible can be? I am not
suggesting their are not conflicts and hypocrisy within Christianity and
churches (what group or organization does not suffer from these
problems), but that the bible does provide an excellent roadmap to live
by.



My question had nothing to do with 12-step support groups, but rather with
Christian theology as practiced between a supplicant and his/her
confessor.

I don't believe there is a requirement in Christianity to make amends to
those one has "sinned against," as it ere, before receiving absolution.
Interestingly, there is such a requirement in Judaism, if my memory of
Theology 101 serves. A Jew cannot expect to be forgiven for sins against
the creator's laws until he has made amends for his sins against his
fellow man.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Bert Robbins wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Wm Shakespeare Smithers wrote:
Harry,
You have stated many times you celebrate the holiday of
Christmas, even
though you are not a Christian. I am sure I can Google it up
very
easily.


I don't give a crap what you google up.
I'm not a Christian. I do not pray to or through Jesus, nor do I
have even
the slightest belief that Jesus was who Christians claim. I
certainly
don't "celebrate the holiday" of Christmas in any sort of
"Christian" way.

Yes, I admire Christmas decorations, and I like a lot of the
classical
Christmas music. I even sometimes go to a church for reasons you
do not
know.

To be absolved of your sins you must in your heart truly repent.
Otherwise,
it is just you trying to buy your way into heaven.


I understand the Christian concept of absolution, but I've not been able
to figure out how Christians absolve themselves for sins against their
fellow man.

Kind of like the union thugs beating up independent workers when the
union is on strike.



'fess up, Bertie...did you join the marines because you were just too
stupid to get into college?

No, I left a Government Job at the USDA to join the USMCR.

Which is not to say that all who do so are stupid.

True, you will find the smartest people in the Corps. There is something to
being a member of an elite fighting force.

You, on the other hand, couldn't get into the military if you tried to pay
your way in.

But you sure are.

The Corps wanted me to consider becoming a Zero but, I decided that it was
better being one of the troops actually doing stuff instead of pushing paper
in the company office.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:03:34 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

Wm Shakespeare Smithers wrote:
JohnH,

There are 12 step groups for just about everything. I looked in Google for
a 12 step group for NPD and found there are support groups for the victims
of NPD, but those with the illness rarely seek help. One of the problems
mentioned is those with NPD would always try to take advantage the other
members of the group.


More amateur hour? If you fell seriously ill with multiple symptoms and
had no idea what was causing them, would you seek professional help or
would you start playing guessing games with the data on internet sites?

Sometimes a 12-step program will provide the support an addict needs,
but that addict also will need therapy and other assistance. 12-stepping
is no substitute for therapy.

You've much to learn 12-step programs.

The question was whether or not a 12-step program helped disorders *other* than addictions. Although
not specifically addressed, the question of NPD was answered by Reggie. Do you have other
information?
--
John Herring

Hope your Christmas is Spectacular!
....and your New Year even Better!

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:14:08 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

John H. wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 09:55:43 -0500, "Wm Shakespeare Smithers" The WordSmith wrote:

JohnH,

There are 12 step groups for just about everything. I looked in Google for
a 12 step group for NPD and found there are support groups for the victims
of NPD, but those with the illness rarely seek help. One of the problems
mentioned is those with NPD would always try to take advantage the other
members of the group.

I did find many links that warned people to be concerned if someone with NPD
makes a threat. It appears that NPD can be very dangerous if they feel
threatened.

When I first started using the Internet, my ISP warned about Security and
Privacy issues. I started using an anonymous ID for Internet Security and
financial info security, not personal security, after reading about NPD I
am glad I have always followed the advice of the experts. Hell would freeze
over before I would give any personal info to someone with NPD.



Other than the occasional 'Kevin' post, I don't think I've ever seen such a hissy-fit thrown in a
news group. What is even more surprising is the lack of support Harry received from his followers.
Apparently his followers saw through your ploy about the same time Harry took the bait.

I expect he'll be 'cowed-down' for a while.
--
John Herring

Hope your Christmas is Spectacular!
...and your New Year even Better!


Header changed to reflect a bit of right-wing pig piling.

Oh, I don't need nor do I look for "support" in newsgroups, as you
fellows seem to. I did get a couple of emails that giggled along with me.

I did notice that once I insisted on knowing Smithers' real name before
I met him for lunch, he quieted right down. The only conclusion can be
that he really is a coward, or he has something to hide.

Harry, you know my name, or at least most of it, and *I* wouldn't meet you for lunch. I'm neither a
coward nor one with something to hide from you.

No one suggested you were looking for support. I suggested that your position must not have been so
tenable if even your ardent supporters wouldn't touch it, except to say you were being 'piled on'.
--
John Herring

Hope your Christmas is Spectacular!
....and your New Year even Better!

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:39:12 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

Wm Shakespeare Smithers wrote:
Harry,

I have nothing to hide nor consider myself a coward, but I hate to tell you
this, having lunch with you would not be high on my list of priorities.


Ahh, that must be why you invited me to catch up with you in Baltimore
for lunch.

He was just hoping you'd bring a picture of the lobsta boat.
--
John Herring

Hope your Christmas is Spectacular!
....and your New Year even Better!

JohnH,

I was curious about Harry's real life persona. I have an image in my head
and I was wondering if it was accurate, but it still is not a big deal.

My guess is Harry wanted to know my name, and once he had that info he would
not have meet for lunch. In the past, he has always found an excuse not to
meet up with someone.

There is a reason why Harry wants to know my personal info, and I guess it
is not to send me a Christmas Card. It is best to keep your personal info
off of the internet. One could really open up a can of worms for someone
with very little effort, and when you see how some people take rec.boats way
to seriously, you can understand why. As little as I know about the
internet, if I wanted to, I could easily cause Harry problems outside of
rec.boats.

When someone says he is creating a dossier about me, it does send up red
flags. I would assume someone who considered himself a computer wiz could
cause some serious problems.

I think I will remain, Smithers.




"John H." wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:39:12 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Wm Shakespeare Smithers wrote:
Harry,

I have nothing to hide nor consider myself a coward, but I hate to tell
you
this, having lunch with you would not be high on my list of
priorities.


Ahh, that must be why you invited me to catch up with you in Baltimore
for lunch.

He was just hoping you'd bring a picture of the lobsta boat.
--
John Herring

Hope your Christmas is Spectacular!
...and your New Year even Better!

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:00:33 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

John H. wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:14:08 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

John H. wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 09:55:43 -0500, "Wm Shakespeare Smithers" The WordSmith wrote:

JohnH,

There are 12 step groups for just about everything. I looked in Google for
a 12 step group for NPD and found there are support groups for the victims
of NPD, but those with the illness rarely seek help. One of the problems
mentioned is those with NPD would always try to take advantage the other
members of the group.

I did find many links that warned people to be concerned if someone with NPD
makes a threat. It appears that NPD can be very dangerous if they feel
threatened.

When I first started using the Internet, my ISP warned about Security and
Privacy issues. I started using an anonymous ID for Internet Security and
financial info security, not personal security, after reading about NPD I
am glad I have always followed the advice of the experts. Hell would freeze
over before I would give any personal info to someone with NPD.


Other than the occasional 'Kevin' post, I don't think I've ever seen such a hissy-fit thrown in a
news group. What is even more surprising is the lack of support Harry received from his followers.
Apparently his followers saw through your ploy about the same time Harry took the bait.

I expect he'll be 'cowed-down' for a while.
--
John Herring

Hope your Christmas is Spectacular!
...and your New Year even Better!

Header changed to reflect a bit of right-wing pig piling.

Oh, I don't need nor do I look for "support" in newsgroups, as you
fellows seem to. I did get a couple of emails that giggled along with me.

I did notice that once I insisted on knowing Smithers' real name before
I met him for lunch, he quieted right down. The only conclusion can be
that he really is a coward, or he has something to hide.

Harry, you know my name, or at least most of it, and *I* wouldn't meet you for lunch. I'm neither a
coward nor one with something to hide from you.


That's because you are an ill-mannered horse's ass. Not my problem.

....as opposed to a well-mannered horse's ass?

Didn't we add name-calling to the 'bad behavior' list?
--
John Herring

Hope your Christmas is Spectacular!
....and your New Year even Better!

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Bert Robbins wrote:


'fess up, Bertie...did you join the marines because you were just too
stupid to get into college?

No, I left a Government Job at the USDA to join the USMCR.

Which is not to say that all who do so are stupid.

True, you will find the smartest people in the Corps. There is something
to being a member of an elite fighting force.


Where might one find the "smartest people in the Corps"? Wherever they
were when you were playing weekend warrior, you weren't among them.

Most of the senior enlisted have bachelors degrees and quite a few have
masters and there are some that have doctorates. This is in all of the
military services. A guy can put in 20 as an enlisted man and get whatever
education he wants and then once he retires he can embark on career number
two.


You, on the other hand, couldn't get into the military if you tried to
pay your way in.

Yeah, right. fog a mirror, no serious physical ailments, and off to boot
camp you go. Like you.

Shows your ignorance, again.