Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Skipper wrote:

Dan Krueger wrote:


None of us *expect* to be put into life threatening situations by
intruders to our homes...but it does happen. Perhaps the best time to
think about your best course of action should that happen is *before*
the perp enters your home.


Again, no one expects to be placed in a position to protect your life
and property with a gun, but it does happen, and it's best to be
properly prepared.


First - How much time do you think you have to react when someone
threatens you? A laser sight is not going to make a difference.


Adieu!

--
Skipper

It's late, Dave. Even in Derby. Go take your meds and try a sane post
in the morning. Let the wife out and give the dog a goodnight kiss.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Skipper wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:

Have you tried the .500 S&W? I haven't, but I think it would be the
perfect "defensive handgun" for all the wheel gun fans.

Recoil alone takes it out of the "perfect" category for defense.
Unintended peripheral damage is also far more likely with that canon.

--
Skipper


Whoosh.

--
If you voted for Bush, you are to blame.

No whoosh. It is too powerful for a home defense weapon. You want a round
that will stop a human, and not blow a car engine apart. You want to kill
the next door neighbor, plus the person walking down street a block away?
Plus you want a weapon that is able to be fired more than once every 10
seconds. the 500 / 454 would be sor far up in the air from recoil, that you
are going to waste a lot of time reaiming.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Best advice I ever heard on home invasions. As the former police chief of
Paducah, Ky. advocated. If you hear someone in the house, get behind your
bed with the light on. Bench rest your weapon on the bed, and also call
911. The bad guy can see you with a gun pointed his way as he goes to enter
the room. 999 time out of a 1000 he will turn and flee. If he steps into
the room shoot him. Twice. Keep the gun aimed at the bad person, as they
lay on the floor. Do not go over to him, or go to let in the police. They
will get in. And there is no danger from the bad guy getting you as you get
near them. And do not feel bad about the bad guy. He is a bad guy, and
even had the chance to turn and run.

"Dan Krueger" wrote in message
k.net...
Skipper wrote:
Dan Krueger wrote:


The laser sight can save your life in life threatening situation. It
allows you to protect vital body parts while delivering a fatal blow.
Iron sights do not.


What in the hell are you trying to say? Read what you posted again.


None of us *expect* to be put into life threatening situations by
intruders to our homes...but it does happen. Perhaps the best time to
think about your best course of action should that happen is *before*
the perp enters your home. First, the laser is a great persuader that
has the potential of defusing the situation without firing a shot. That
really is the best resolution. Second, the laser dot allows you to take
aim from many body positions, while iron sights require the shooter to
expose his head while taking aim. Third, the cost of adding laser sights
to a defensive weapon in minuscule when measured against you life. One
can think of laser sights as being cheap life insurance and an
investment in avoiding legal fees.

The laser sights give new meaning to the term, shooting from the hip.
Accurate results can result from that position...laser assisted. Again,
no one expects to be placed in a position to protect your life and
property with a gun, but it does happen, and it's best to be properly
prepared.



--
Skipper

First - How much time do you think you have to react when someone
threatens you? A laser sight is not going to make a difference.

Second (following your post) - This is insane. You think you have time to
select a particular spot on your target (the intruder)? How does a laser
sight keep you from exposing your head while taking aim? You can buy a
laser pointer if you really think this stunt will be effective.

Third - Sure they are cheap. They are also great for the firing range.
How can they save you legal fees??? BTW - Life insurance is paid when you
die so laser sights, in your scenario, only facilitate the pay out of life
insurance.

Do you really own a gun? Have you considered what a real encounter with
an intruder would be like?

Again, too many movies, Dave...

Dan

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Skipper" wrote in message
...
"Wayne.B" wrote:

Skipper wrote:

Stop me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the laser sight give up your own
position also?

The laser sight can save your life in life threatening situation. It
allows you to protect vital body parts while delivering a fatal blow.
Iron sights do not.

Perhaps, but that was not my question.

When you place that dancing red dot on the perp's chest, I'd hope your
voice gives your position away. Do you intend to shoot *before*
commanding the intruder to freeze? Lawyers will have a field day with
that one. Bottom line, laser sights are a good investment for home
defense.

Oh, and BTW, invoking the laser dot is optional with the C/T grips. It
does not have to be displayed until trigger pull.

--
Skipper

And who is going to testify you did not warn the person first. Do not talk
to the bad guy. Just make sure he sees the weapon pointing their way. He
has a chance to break and run. You do not have to worry about cleaning up
the mess. And if you have ever seen anybody shot a couple of times, you
will know there is a mess. And not talking puts the psychological battle to
your side. When I was 17, I witnessed a murder where guy was hit 5 times
with a 45. Big mess.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Skipper, you guys have only spoken of hand guns for defensive purposes. Are
shotguns not suited to the purpose? Could you give me some pro's and cons
for each type of weapon? Can/could/should a shotgun be fitted with a laser
beam? I'm thinking you could shine the laser in his eyes to blind him long
enough for you to flip the lights on and identify him before you decide to
puree his vital organs. Let me know what you think.
JIMinFL

"Skipper" wrote in message
...
Dan Krueger wrote:

The laser sight can save your life in life threatening situation. It
allows you to protect vital body parts while delivering a fatal blow.
Iron sights do not.

What in the hell are you trying to say? Read what you posted again.

None of us *expect* to be put into life threatening situations by
intruders to our homes...but it does happen. Perhaps the best time to
think about your best course of action should that happen is *before*
the perp enters your home. First, the laser is a great persuader that
has the potential of defusing the situation without firing a shot. That
really is the best resolution. Second, the laser dot allows you to take
aim from many body positions, while iron sights require the shooter to
expose his head while taking aim. Third, the cost of adding laser sights
to a defensive weapon in minuscule when measured against you life. One
can think of laser sights as being cheap life insurance and an
investment in avoiding legal fees.

The laser sights give new meaning to the term, shooting from the hip.
Accurate results can result from that position...laser assisted. Again,
no one expects to be placed in a position to protect your life and
property with a gun, but it does happen, and it's best to be properly
prepared.



--
Skipper

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"JIMinFL" wrote in message
k.net...
Skipper, you guys have only spoken of hand guns for defensive purposes.
Are
shotguns not suited to the purpose? Could you give me some pro's and cons
for each type of weapon? Can/could/should a shotgun be fitted with a laser
beam? I'm thinking you could shine the laser in his eyes to blind him long
enough for you to flip the lights on and identify him before you decide to
puree his vital organs. Let me know what you think.
JIMinFL


The "ka-chuck" sound of loading a shell into the chamber of a pump action
shotgun is a sure way to let any intruder know you mean business without
firing a shot.

Here is an interesting article explaining why the shotgun is perhaps the
best weapon for home defense:

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/Home.html

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Just like his buddy Carl Rowen, the now deceased pundit, that was vocally
anti-gun. But, when those kids came around late in the evening to swim in
his pool the first thing he did was to pull out his illegally owned gun and
started to shoot rather than call the police.

Harry is no different in that he belives that the rules and laws do not
apply to him.


"Lord Reginald Smithers" Ask me about my driveway leading up to my manor.
wrote in message ...
LOL, this is so funny watching Harry being a supporter of using handguns
for self defense.


"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Bill McKee wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Skipper wrote:
Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:

Skipper wrote:
So, which is the better *defensive* handgun, a S&W .357 mag fitted
with
laser grips or a Glock auto?
.357 mag revolver or a .44 mag revolver.
Simple, effective and never break down.
"I know what you're thinkin', punk. You're thinkin', did he fire six
shots or only five? And to tell you the truth, I forgot myself in all
this excitement. But bein' this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful
handgun in the world, and it'll blow your head clean off, you could
ask
yourself a question. Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

- Harry Callahan

--
Skipper

Great line, great delivery, but inaccurate. The .454 Casull, for one.
was and is "more powerful."



--
Bush deserves a fair trial!

The .454 was not built at the time of the movie. I hae watched .454
casull being fired, and decided I did not want to abuse myself that
much.

Have you tried the .500 S&W? I haven't, but I think it would be the
perfect "defensive handgun" for all the wheel gun fans.

--
Clinton ruined a dress; Bush ruined a nation.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Bill McKee wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Skipper wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:

Have you tried the .500 S&W? I haven't, but I think it would be the
perfect "defensive handgun" for all the wheel gun fans.
Recoil alone takes it out of the "perfect" category for defense.
Unintended peripheral damage is also far more likely with that canon.

--
Skipper

Whoosh.

--
If you voted for Bush, you are to blame.

No whoosh. It is too powerful for a home defense weapon. You want a
round that will stop a human, and not blow a car engine apart. You want
to kill the next door neighbor, plus the person walking down street a
block away? Plus you want a weapon that is able to be fired more than
once every 10 seconds. the 500 / 454 would be sor far up in the air from
recoil, that you are going to waste a lot of time reaiming.
I was being facetious. It's a cannon. That's why the "whoosh."

Nice try at a recovery but, it didn't work.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Bert Robbins wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Bill McKee wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Skipper wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:

Have you tried the .500 S&W? I haven't, but I think it would be the
perfect "defensive handgun" for all the wheel gun fans.
Recoil alone takes it out of the "perfect" category for defense.
Unintended peripheral damage is also far more likely with that canon.

--
Skipper
Whoosh.

--
If you voted for Bush, you are to blame.
No whoosh. It is too powerful for a home defense weapon. You want a
round that will stop a human, and not blow a car engine apart. You
want to kill the next door neighbor, plus the person walking down
street a block away? Plus you want a weapon that is able to be fired
more than once every 10 seconds. the 500 / 454 would be sor far up in
the air from recoil, that you are going to waste a lot of time
reaiming.
I was being facetious. It's a cannon. That's why the "whoosh."

Nice try at a recovery but, it didn't work.


Sure it did. The problem is, I keep forgetting how utterly stupid some of
you righties are.



Are you filling in for Kevin this weekend Harry?

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

I have decided the only way to handle this is to buy a shotgun and have a
laser sight placed on the shotgun.


"JIMinFL" wrote in message
k.net...
Skipper, you guys have only spoken of hand guns for defensive purposes.
Are
shotguns not suited to the purpose? Could you give me some pro's and cons
for each type of weapon? Can/could/should a shotgun be fitted with a laser
beam? I'm thinking you could shine the laser in his eyes to blind him long
enough for you to flip the lights on and identify him before you decide to
puree his vital organs. Let me know what you think.
JIMinFL

"Skipper" wrote in message
...
Dan Krueger wrote:

The laser sight can save your life in life threatening situation. It
allows you to protect vital body parts while delivering a fatal blow.
Iron sights do not.

What in the hell are you trying to say? Read what you posted again.

None of us *expect* to be put into life threatening situations by
intruders to our homes...but it does happen. Perhaps the best time to
think about your best course of action should that happen is *before*
the perp enters your home. First, the laser is a great persuader that
has the potential of defusing the situation without firing a shot. That
really is the best resolution. Second, the laser dot allows you to take
aim from many body positions, while iron sights require the shooter to
expose his head while taking aim. Third, the cost of adding laser sights
to a defensive weapon in minuscule when measured against you life. One
can think of laser sights as being cheap life insurance and an
investment in avoiding legal fees.

The laser sights give new meaning to the term, shooting from the hip.
Accurate results can result from that position...laser assisted. Again,
no one expects to be placed in a position to protect your life and
property with a gun, but it does happen, and it's best to be properly
prepared.



--
Skipper

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Dan Krueger" wrote in message
k.net...

Second (following your post) - This is insane. You think you have time to
select a particular spot on your target (the intruder)? How does a laser
sight keep you from exposing your head while taking aim? You can buy a
laser pointer if you really think this stunt will be effective.

I wonder why these things are true.

1) The two largest handgun makers on the planet don't offer models with
laser anything installed, nor do they even sell them as accessories for
users to install themselves. Instead, they offer tritium night sights.

2) In NRA and IDPA tournaments, there are people who shoot so well, they
seem like machines. They don't use laser sights.

3) Every book I've ever read, by instructors like Massad Ayoob, Chuck Taylor
and Gabe Suarez, say best shooting results are obtained when you force
yourself to drop the target out of focus, and bring the gun's sights into
focus.

4) Pistols set up for hunting virtually never include laser sights.

Strange, isn't it?

Laser sights are a terrific thing for rifle use in some situations, but for
anything else, they're just a security blanket.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 13:42:08 GMT, "JIMinFL"
wrote:

I'm thinking you could shine the laser in his eyes to blind him long
enough for you to flip the lights on and identify him before you decide to
puree his vital organs.

That's not a bad idea, but it's hard to accomplish.

This is why there are nice little tactical lights, like those from Surefire
(www.surefire.com). They accomplish both purposes - blind the visitor, and
totally illuminate him.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Racking a shell in a shotgun and snapping the side by side or over and under
is going to scare away most intruders. There is no need for a laser sight on
a shotgun. Just the sight of the barrel will put fear into the intruder.

If you have kids or a spouse you had better not shoot before you identify
your target.


"JIMinFL" wrote in message
k.net...
Skipper, you guys have only spoken of hand guns for defensive purposes.
Are
shotguns not suited to the purpose? Could you give me some pro's and cons
for each type of weapon? Can/could/should a shotgun be fitted with a laser
beam? I'm thinking you could shine the laser in his eyes to blind him long
enough for you to flip the lights on and identify him before you decide to
puree his vital organs. Let me know what you think.
JIMinFL

"Skipper" wrote in message
...
Dan Krueger wrote:

The laser sight can save your life in life threatening situation. It
allows you to protect vital body parts while delivering a fatal blow.
Iron sights do not.

What in the hell are you trying to say? Read what you posted again.

None of us *expect* to be put into life threatening situations by
intruders to our homes...but it does happen. Perhaps the best time to
think about your best course of action should that happen is *before*
the perp enters your home. First, the laser is a great persuader that
has the potential of defusing the situation without firing a shot. That
really is the best resolution. Second, the laser dot allows you to take
aim from many body positions, while iron sights require the shooter to
expose his head while taking aim. Third, the cost of adding laser sights
to a defensive weapon in minuscule when measured against you life. One
can think of laser sights as being cheap life insurance and an
investment in avoiding legal fees.

The laser sights give new meaning to the term, shooting from the hip.
Accurate results can result from that position...laser assisted. Again,
no one expects to be placed in a position to protect your life and
property with a gun, but it does happen, and it's best to be properly
prepared.



--
Skipper

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Lord Reginald Smithers" Ask me about my driveway leading up to my manor.
wrote in message ...
I have decided the only way to handle this is to buy a shotgun and have a
laser sight placed on the shotgun.

You're better off with a tactical light which blinds the visitor and
thoroughly illuminates him. If you have the correct loads in the shotgun,
and you're aimed "roughly" around the center of the target, the first shot
will be enough to quickly change whatever ideas he may have, and if you're
close enough, he may be done for good. The precision of a laser is
completely unnecessary. This is why the shotgun really is the preferred gun
for defense in the home.

It all sounds good, though, until the police take the body out the door and
tell you that YOU have to clean up the mess.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
JimH wrote:
"JIMinFL" wrote in message
k.net...
Skipper, you guys have only spoken of hand guns for defensive purposes.
Are
shotguns not suited to the purpose? Could you give me some pro's and
cons
for each type of weapon? Can/could/should a shotgun be fitted with a
laser
beam? I'm thinking you could shine the laser in his eyes to blind him
long
enough for you to flip the lights on and identify him before you decide
to
puree his vital organs. Let me know what you think.
JIMinFL


The "ka-chuck" sound of loading a shell into the chamber of a pump action
shotgun is a sure way to let any intruder know you mean business without
firing a shot.

Here is an interesting article explaining why the shotgun is perhaps the
best weapon for home defense:

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/Home.html


I recommend the simpler over and under, or double barrel, or even single
shot shotguns for home defense. Much simpler. Can be very inexpensive.
H&R makes some really nice single-shot shotguns that anyone can afford. I
have one. It's my favorite weapon for killing empty soda cans.

Forget the single shot. At a minimum go with an OandU or a SbyS. The better
choice is a pump with the ability to hole three or more rounds.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Doug,
My post was made in jest. I don't own a gun and don't plan on buying one.

Maybe I should just buy a laser light and attach it to a broom handle.
Opps correction, make that a tactical light attached to a broom handle.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Lord Reginald Smithers" Ask me about my driveway leading up to my
manor. wrote in message ...
I have decided the only way to handle this is to buy a shotgun and have a
laser sight placed on the shotgun.

You're better off with a tactical light which blinds the visitor and
thoroughly illuminates him. If you have the correct loads in the shotgun,
and you're aimed "roughly" around the center of the target, the first shot
will be enough to quickly change whatever ideas he may have, and if you're
close enough, he may be done for good. The precision of a laser is
completely unnecessary. This is why the shotgun really is the preferred
gun for defense in the home.

It all sounds good, though, until the police take the body out the door
and tell you that YOU have to clean up the mess.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Bert Robbins wrote:
Just like his buddy Carl Rowen, the now deceased pundit, that was vocally
anti-gun. But, when those kids came around late in the evening to swim in
his pool the first thing he did was to pull out his illegally owned gun
and started to shoot rather than call the police.

Harry is no different in that he belives that the rules and laws do not
apply to him.


"Lord Reginald Smithers" Ask me about my driveway leading up to my
manor. wrote in message ...
LOL, this is so funny watching Harry being a supporter of using
handguns for self defense.




Sorry, Bertbrain and buddy, but:

1. I don't own any illegal weapons, or even weapons I illegally obtained.
2. I don't advocate using handguns for home defense.
3. I don't carry firearms on my person when I leave my home.
4. I shoot *rented* handguns at ranges, and the handguns of friends
on their private property.

If, however, you insist on using a handgun for home defense, then, yes, I
think a semi-auto is a better choice.






So, what you have posited is just more simple-minded, right-wing idiocy.

Wrong, you have said numerous times that you will shoot first and ask
questions later if some of the righties appear at your door.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Dan Krueger" wrote in message
nk.net...
Skipper wrote:

Dan Krueger wrote:


Read...and learn:


http://www.crimsontrace.com/5things.pdf


Sure, if the guy is looking at his shirt instead of you. How do they
help for home protection? Do you think a confrontation like that last
for more than 10 seconds? You have been watching too many moves, Dave.


An intruder break into your home. You confront him with a laser dot
bouncing on his chest and command the perp, "freeze or your dead." What
does the perp do? What do you do? Does it remind you of those words from
the Godfather movie regarding what Michael holds in his hand when he
emerges from the mens room?

--
Skipper

An intruder breaks into your home. You are sitting on the couch in the
dark with a fully loaded .45 with a laser.

Is that how it happens, Dave? Not in my house. I have guns. Loaded
guns. But I don't walk around with one. Again...you have been watching
too many movies, Dave.

Well....I have to admit that I keep a loaded gun in the drawer under the
main work surface in the kitchen. Certain people, who shall go unnamed here,
refuse to understand "the triangle" - the area most traveled when someone's
busy making dinner. I've tried pleading, threats, everything. I don't know
any other way to deal with it at this point.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Lord Reginald Smithers" The fastest and most accurate Gun in the World
wrote in message ...
Doug,
My post was made in jest. I don't own a gun and don't plan on buying one.

Maybe I should just buy a laser light and attach it to a broom handle.
Opps correction, make that a tactical light attached to a broom handle.

I like the idea of fortified basement windows, which, according to the
police, is the preferred entry point for the vast majority of intruders. I
also have deadbolts on the basement door, although they're not
laser-assisted.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Dan Krueger wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:
Doug Kanter wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

Skipper wrote:

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:

Skipper wrote:

So, which is the better *defensive* handgun, a S&W .357 mag fitted
with
laser grips or a Glock auto?
.357 mag revolver or a .44 mag revolver.
Simple, effective and never break down.
"I know what you're thinkin', punk. You're thinkin', did he fire six
shots or only five? And to tell you the truth, I forgot myself in all
this excitement. But bein' this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful
handgun in the world, and it'll blow your head clean off, you could
ask
yourself a question. Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

- Harry Callahan

--
Skipper

Great line, great delivery, but inaccurate. The .454 Casull, for one.
was and is "more powerful."

Not sure, but I don't think that load existed at the time the movie was
made.


Dick Casull developed the .454 Casull in 1957 and announced it in 1959
in Guns and Ammo magazine. If I'm on your "holiday shopping list," I'd
like a 454 wheelgun from Freedom Arms.

Can you afford to shoot it? What is it now, $3.50 per shot?

About a buck and a half, I think. I looked it up once in the Natchez
catalog. Just for grins.

It's a silly caliber, unless you're out in the woods somewhere, and you
run across a hungry, large bear.

Have you seen the new piece offered by Ruger? 5 shot .454, 3" barrel. A last
resort gun for people who spend lots of time in serious bear country. Just
read a review where the guy said is "wasn't so bad to shoot". Right. And I'm
the king of Denmark.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Bert Robbins wrote:

Wrong, you have said numerous times that you will shoot first and ask
questions later if some of the righties appear at your door.


Sounds like a sound policy.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Harry,
I can see why you don't allow your posts to be archived. it does make it
easier for you to change your story.


"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Bert Robbins wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Bert Robbins wrote:
Just like his buddy Carl Rowen, the now deceased pundit, that was
vocally anti-gun. But, when those kids came around late in the evening
to swim in his pool the first thing he did was to pull out his
illegally owned gun and started to shoot rather than call the police.

Harry is no different in that he belives that the rules and laws do not
apply to him.


"Lord Reginald Smithers" Ask me about my driveway leading up to my
manor. wrote in message ...
LOL, this is so funny watching Harry being a supporter of using
handguns for self defense.



Sorry, Bertbrain and buddy, but:

1. I don't own any illegal weapons, or even weapons I illegally
obtained.
2. I don't advocate using handguns for home defense.
3. I don't carry firearms on my person when I leave my home.
4. I shoot *rented* handguns at ranges, and the handguns of friends
on their private property.

If, however, you insist on using a handgun for home defense, then, yes,
I think a semi-auto is a better choice.






So, what you have posited is just more simple-minded, right-wing idiocy.

Wrong, you have said numerous times that you will shoot first and ask
questions later if some of the righties appear at your door.

Sorry, one-volt brain, but what I said was that if Tuuk forced his way
into my house uninvited, I would view that as a home invasion, as he had
publicly threatened to do me harm, and I would act accordingly. That's
not "some" of the righties, that's a particular rightie. And it's no
different than I would treat any other home invader.

You and several of your buddies here should really visit the wizard and
trade in that straw between your ears.

--
God bless our troops; God forgive George W. Bush.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Harry,
Nah I really don't, but I do have a strong double bolt on my door leading
up from the basement. The double bolt is long enough to slide into the 2x4
frame.


"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Lord Reginald Smithers" The fastest and most accurate Gun in the World
wrote in message ...
Doug,
My post was made in jest. I don't own a gun and don't plan on buying
one.

Maybe I should just buy a laser light and attach it to a broom handle.
Opps correction, make that a tactical light attached to a broom handle.

I like the idea of fortified basement windows, which, according to the
police, is the preferred entry point for the vast majority of intruders.
I also have deadbolts on the basement door, although they're not
laser-assisted.


I'm betting Smithers already has a laser light on a broomstick.

--
I'm proud of my country, but appalled by my government.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Don White" wrote in message
...
Bert Robbins wrote:

Wrong, you have said numerous times that you will shoot first and ask
questions later if some of the righties appear at your door.
Sounds like a sound policy.

Well, come on over Don, I'm sure Harry can give you my address :)

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Dan Krueger" wrote in message
k.net...

Second (following your post) - This is insane. You think you have time
to select a particular spot on your target (the intruder)? How does a
laser sight keep you from exposing your head while taking aim? You can
buy a laser pointer if you really think this stunt will be effective.

I wonder why these things are true.

1) The two largest handgun makers on the planet don't offer models with
laser anything installed, nor do they even sell them as accessories for
users to install themselves. Instead, they offer tritium night sights.

2) In NRA and IDPA tournaments, there are people who shoot so well, they
seem like machines. They don't use laser sights.

3) Every book I've ever read, by instructors like Massad Ayoob, Chuck
Taylor and Gabe Suarez, say best shooting results are obtained when you
force yourself to drop the target out of focus, and bring the gun's
sights into focus.

4) Pistols set up for hunting virtually never include laser sights.

Strange, isn't it?

Laser sights are a terrific thing for rifle use in some situations, but
for anything else, they're just a security blanket.


My understanding is that the laser dot is supposed to improve your ability
to isolate your target, once you are sure you have a target, in near
darkness. I wouldn't shoot at anything I couldn't see clearly and
recognize *as* my target. If I have a perp in my house and he's coming at
me, I'm going to blast him with a 12-gauge and stop him, not play around
with a little red light.

I doubt Skipper has any firearms. He might have a flashlight.

To me, "isolate your target" means to differentiate it from other people or
things. A laser dot does no such thing.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Dan Krueger wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:
Doug Kanter wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

Skipper wrote:

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:

Skipper wrote:

So, which is the better *defensive* handgun, a S&W .357 mag
fitted with
laser grips or a Glock auto?
.357 mag revolver or a .44 mag revolver.
Simple, effective and never break down.
"I know what you're thinkin', punk. You're thinkin', did he fire
six
shots or only five? And to tell you the truth, I forgot myself in
all
this excitement. But bein' this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful
handgun in the world, and it'll blow your head clean off, you could
ask
yourself a question. Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

- Harry Callahan

--
Skipper
Great line, great delivery, but inaccurate. The .454 Casull, for
one. was and is "more powerful."
Not sure, but I don't think that load existed at the time the movie
was made.

Dick Casull developed the .454 Casull in 1957 and announced it in 1959
in Guns and Ammo magazine. If I'm on your "holiday shopping list," I'd
like a 454 wheelgun from Freedom Arms.

Can you afford to shoot it? What is it now, $3.50 per shot?
About a buck and a half, I think. I looked it up once in the Natchez
catalog. Just for grins.

It's a silly caliber, unless you're out in the woods somewhere, and you
run across a hungry, large bear.

Have you seen the new piece offered by Ruger? 5 shot .454, 3" barrel. A
last resort gun for people who spend lots of time in serious bear
country. Just read a review where the guy said is "wasn't so bad to
shoot". Right. And I'm the king of Denmark.

Is that the Ruger Alaskan? I saw one up at the Bass Pro Shops, or at least
I *think* I saw one there, in a display case, along with the S&W .500. But
it was a "six-shooter," not a "five-shooter," so maybe it was a different
piece. It was a .454, though. Just what you need for those Maryland
hunting expeditions for the dangerous critters in our woods.

(Note to right-wing droolers: that was a bit of sarcasm. Yes, I know we
have bears, albeit small ones, in our woods. Now, go back to sleep, boys.)

Oh yeah...it is 6. I read wrong.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Harry Krause wrote:

No whoosh. It is too powerful for a home defense weapon. You want a
round that will stop a human, and not blow a car engine apart. You want
to kill the next door neighbor, plus the person walking down street a
block away? Plus you want a weapon that is able to be fired more than
once every 10 seconds. the 500 / 454 would be sor far up in the air from
recoil, that you are going to waste a lot of time reaiming.

I was being facetious. It's a cannon. That's why the "whoosh."

Nice try at a recovery but, it didn't work.

Sure it did. The problem is, I keep forgetting how utterly stupid some
of you righties are.

And once again Krause demonstrates his use of the HK Canard as his best
defensive weapon.

--
Skipper

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 11:56:16 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:
"Dan Krueger" wrote in message
k.net...

Second (following your post) - This is insane. You think you have time
to
select a particular spot on your target (the intruder)? How does a
laser
sight keep you from exposing your head while taking aim? You can buy a
laser pointer if you really think this stunt will be effective.

I wonder why these things are true.

1) The two largest handgun makers on the planet don't offer models with
laser anything installed, nor do they even sell them as accessories for
users to install themselves. Instead, they offer tritium night sights.

2) In NRA and IDPA tournaments, there are people who shoot so well, they
seem like machines. They don't use laser sights.

3) Every book I've ever read, by instructors like Massad Ayoob, Chuck
Taylor
and Gabe Suarez, say best shooting results are obtained when you force
yourself to drop the target out of focus, and bring the gun's sights
into
focus.

4) Pistols set up for hunting virtually never include laser sights.

Strange, isn't it?

Laser sights are a terrific thing for rifle use in some situations, but
for
anything else, they're just a security blanket.




My understanding is that the laser dot is supposed to improve your
ability to isolate your target, once you are sure you have a target, in
near darkness. I wouldn't shoot at anything I couldn't see clearly and
recognize *as* my target. If I have a perp in my house and he's coming
at me, I'm going to blast him with a 12-gauge and stop him, not play
around with a little red light.

I doubt Skipper has any firearms. He might have a flashlight.

I have a laser on my .45 Ruger and I think it is just a waste of
money. In a serious social situation it might actually give the other
guy a better place to aim at.


Which .45 Ruger do you have? I'm pondering an upgrade.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Doug Kanter wrote:

Every book I've ever read, by instructors like Massad Ayoob, Chuck Taylor
and Gabe Suarez, say best shooting results are obtained when you force
yourself to drop the target out of focus, and bring the gun's sights into
focus.

Total bunk! Nonsense!! Most home intrusions occur at night, and under
minimal light conditions. Same can be said of most assaults. Advising
the focusing of ones attention on sights at night and under stressful
adrenaline pumped minimal light conditions is insane...AND it ain't
going to happen.

Pistols set up for hunting virtually never include laser sights.

Just not true, Doug. Laser grips are not a substitute for iron sights,
they are an alternative for low light conditions for hunting pistols.
Many hunters employ laser grips on their handguns...more all the time.
They *are* an improvement over iron sights in poor light conditions.

Laser sight technology is still new, and this discussion is much like
one I had with Krause a few years back where he advocated using a
sextant for coastal nav over a GPS. Given time, even the slower wits
come around.

Strange, isn't it?

Not at all.

--
Skipper

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 11:56:16 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:
"Dan Krueger" wrote in message
k.net...

Second (following your post) - This is insane. You think you have
time to
select a particular spot on your target (the intruder)? How does a
laser
sight keep you from exposing your head while taking aim? You can buy
a
laser pointer if you really think this stunt will be effective.
I wonder why these things are true.

1) The two largest handgun makers on the planet don't offer models
with
laser anything installed, nor do they even sell them as accessories
for
users to install themselves. Instead, they offer tritium night sights.

2) In NRA and IDPA tournaments, there are people who shoot so well,
they
seem like machines. They don't use laser sights.

3) Every book I've ever read, by instructors like Massad Ayoob, Chuck
Taylor
and Gabe Suarez, say best shooting results are obtained when you force
yourself to drop the target out of focus, and bring the gun's sights
into
focus.

4) Pistols set up for hunting virtually never include laser sights.

Strange, isn't it?

Laser sights are a terrific thing for rifle use in some situations,
but for
anything else, they're just a security blanket.



My understanding is that the laser dot is supposed to improve your
ability to isolate your target, once you are sure you have a target, in
near darkness. I wouldn't shoot at anything I couldn't see clearly and
recognize *as* my target. If I have a perp in my house and he's coming
at me, I'm going to blast him with a 12-gauge and stop him, not play
around with a little red light.

I doubt Skipper has any firearms. He might have a flashlight.
I have a laser on my .45 Ruger and I think it is just a waste of
money. In a serious social situation it might actually give the other
guy a better place to aim at.


Which .45 Ruger do you have? I'm pondering an upgrade.
Have you tried a G37, or are you set on a wheel gun?

I'm thinking of getting rid of a wheelgun - S&W 25-2 (.45 long colt). Too
expensive to shoot, and I don't want to get involved with handloading. I'm
thinking about a Ruger P90.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Skipper" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:

Every book I've ever read, by instructors like Massad Ayoob, Chuck Taylor
and Gabe Suarez, say best shooting results are obtained when you force
yourself to drop the target out of focus, and bring the gun's sights into
focus.

Total bunk! Nonsense!! Most home intrusions occur at night, and under
minimal light conditions. Same can be said of most assaults. Advising
the focusing of ones attention on sights at night and under stressful
adrenaline pumped minimal light conditions is insane...AND it ain't
going to happen.

Total bunk? Three police/military instructors with combined experience of
over 75 years are teaching total bunk? You should try the aforementioned
total bunk, if you ever actually get a handgun and go to a range where you
can simulate low light situations. How do you suppose you're supposed to
line up your sights if they're blurred out?



Pistols set up for hunting virtually never include laser sights.

Just not true, Doug. Laser grips are not a substitute for iron sights,
they are an alternative for low light conditions for hunting pistols.
Many hunters employ laser grips on their handguns...more all the time.
They *are* an improvement over iron sights in poor light conditions.

No. First of all, most handgun hunters who add ANY accessory to a big
revolver will first add tritium night sights, and then a scope. Low light
isn't that big an issue, since you're not supposed to be hunting after dark
anyway, unless you're some redneck moron who also doesn't know whose
property he's hunting on, and is ignorant of the regulations.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 11:56:16 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:
"Dan Krueger" wrote in message
k.net...

Second (following your post) - This is insane. You think you have
time to
select a particular spot on your target (the intruder)? How does a
laser
sight keep you from exposing your head while taking aim? You can
buy a
laser pointer if you really think this stunt will be effective.
I wonder why these things are true.

1) The two largest handgun makers on the planet don't offer models
with
laser anything installed, nor do they even sell them as accessories
for
users to install themselves. Instead, they offer tritium night
sights.

2) In NRA and IDPA tournaments, there are people who shoot so well,
they
seem like machines. They don't use laser sights.

3) Every book I've ever read, by instructors like Massad Ayoob,
Chuck Taylor
and Gabe Suarez, say best shooting results are obtained when you
force
yourself to drop the target out of focus, and bring the gun's sights
into
focus.

4) Pistols set up for hunting virtually never include laser sights.

Strange, isn't it?

Laser sights are a terrific thing for rifle use in some situations,
but for
anything else, they're just a security blanket.


My understanding is that the laser dot is supposed to improve your
ability to isolate your target, once you are sure you have a target,
in
near darkness. I wouldn't shoot at anything I couldn't see clearly
and
recognize *as* my target. If I have a perp in my house and he's
coming
at me, I'm going to blast him with a 12-gauge and stop him, not play
around with a little red light.

I doubt Skipper has any firearms. He might have a flashlight.
I have a laser on my .45 Ruger and I think it is just a waste of
money. In a serious social situation it might actually give the other
guy a better place to aim at.

Which .45 Ruger do you have? I'm pondering an upgrade.
Have you tried a G37, or are you set on a wheel gun?

I'm thinking of getting rid of a wheelgun - S&W 25-2 (.45 long colt). Too
expensive to shoot, and I don't want to get involved with handloading.
I'm thinking about a Ruger P90.

Might I suggest you visit a dealer range and try out a G37? It's about the
same price as the P90, give or take. Though I think the P90 is smaller, if
you are looking for CCW.

Ranges around here don't have guns to try out. Who makes the G37 anyway?

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 12:33:02 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Which .45 Ruger do you have? I'm pondering an upgrade.


Have you tried a G37, or are you set on a wheel gun?
KP90
I still prefer the 1911

Any particular negatives that stand out with the Ruger?

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 11:56:16 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:
"Dan Krueger" wrote in message
k.net...

Second (following your post) - This is insane. You think you
have time to
select a particular spot on your target (the intruder)? How does
a laser
sight keep you from exposing your head while taking aim? You can
buy a
laser pointer if you really think this stunt will be effective.
I wonder why these things are true.

1) The two largest handgun makers on the planet don't offer models
with
laser anything installed, nor do they even sell them as
accessories for
users to install themselves. Instead, they offer tritium night
sights.

2) In NRA and IDPA tournaments, there are people who shoot so
well, they
seem like machines. They don't use laser sights.

3) Every book I've ever read, by instructors like Massad Ayoob,
Chuck Taylor
and Gabe Suarez, say best shooting results are obtained when you
force
yourself to drop the target out of focus, and bring the gun's
sights into
focus.

4) Pistols set up for hunting virtually never include laser
sights.

Strange, isn't it?

Laser sights are a terrific thing for rifle use in some
situations, but for
anything else, they're just a security blanket.


My understanding is that the laser dot is supposed to improve your
ability to isolate your target, once you are sure you have a
target, in
near darkness. I wouldn't shoot at anything I couldn't see clearly
and
recognize *as* my target. If I have a perp in my house and he's
coming
at me, I'm going to blast him with a 12-gauge and stop him, not
play
around with a little red light.

I doubt Skipper has any firearms. He might have a flashlight.
I have a laser on my .45 Ruger and I think it is just a waste of
money. In a serious social situation it might actually give the
other
guy a better place to aim at.

Which .45 Ruger do you have? I'm pondering an upgrade.
Have you tried a G37, or are you set on a wheel gun?
I'm thinking of getting rid of a wheelgun - S&W 25-2 (.45 long colt).
Too expensive to shoot, and I don't want to get involved with
handloading. I'm thinking about a Ruger P90.
Might I suggest you visit a dealer range and try out a G37? It's about
the same price as the P90, give or take. Though I think the P90 is
smaller, if you are looking for CCW.

Ranges around here don't have guns to try out. Who makes the G37 anyway?
Glock 37. Shoots the new Glock .45 GAP round. Really nice piece, if you
like Glocks. Holds 10 in the mag, one in the spout. Under $500. Fast
shooter, little muzzle flip for a .45, typical Glock simplicity. I think
I've seen jacket ammo on Natchez for $13 or so a box.

They're interesting, but I want to stick with an ammo size that's a bit more
universal, in case things ever get "funny" around here, a la New Orleans.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Doug Kanter wrote:


Well....I have to admit that I keep a loaded gun in the drawer under the
main work surface in the kitchen. Certain people, who shall go unnamed here,
refuse to understand "the triangle" - the area most traveled when someone's
busy making dinner. I've tried pleading, threats, everything. I don't know
any other way to deal with it at this point.



I have to start paying more attention to this thread.
As someone who spent about 12 grand re-modeling our kitchen 2 years ago,
I understand the efficiency triangle concept...but didn't find a use for
a gun
What if the wife gets ****ed off at you, pulls that gun out in a rage &
accidentally uses it? Here everything has to be under lock & key with
ammo stored separately.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Don White" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:


Well....I have to admit that I keep a loaded gun in the drawer under the
main work surface in the kitchen. Certain people, who shall go unnamed
here, refuse to understand "the triangle" - the area most traveled when
someone's busy making dinner. I've tried pleading, threats, everything. I
don't know any other way to deal with it at this point.


I have to start paying more attention to this thread.
As someone who spent about 12 grand re-modeling our kitchen 2 years ago, I
understand the efficiency triangle concept...but didn't find a use for a
gun
What if the wife gets ****ed off at you, pulls that gun out in a rage &
accidentally uses it? Here everything has to be under lock & key with
ammo stored separately.

Well, I jettisoned the wife a few years ago, so she's not an issue. And, the
son understands the triangle because he worked in a restaurant kitchen and
almost had a collision between his chest and a hot cast iron pan the chef
was turning around with. The "other", on the other hand, is often oblivious
to the motion taking place.

Actually, I was looking at the layout the other day and realized that when I
re-do the floor this coming spring, I could decoratively box in the work
zone with a border of tiles. That would make the rules a bit more
lighthearted. "See this line on the floor? Either start peeling garlic, or
stand outside the line". :-)

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
JimH wrote:
"JIMinFL" wrote in message
k.net...
Skipper, you guys have only spoken of hand guns for defensive purposes.
Are
shotguns not suited to the purpose? Could you give me some pro's and
cons
for each type of weapon? Can/could/should a shotgun be fitted with a
laser
beam? I'm thinking you could shine the laser in his eyes to blind him
long
enough for you to flip the lights on and identify him before you decide
to
puree his vital organs. Let me know what you think.
JIMinFL


The "ka-chuck" sound of loading a shell into the chamber of a pump action
shotgun is a sure way to let any intruder know you mean business without
firing a shot.

Here is an interesting article explaining why the shotgun is perhaps the
best weapon for home defense:

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/Home.html


I recommend the simpler over and under, or double barrel, or even single
shot shotguns for home defense. Much simpler. Can be very inexpensive.
H&R makes some really nice single-shot shotguns that anyone can afford. I
have one. It's my favorite weapon for killing empty soda cans.

--
George W. Bush: American Nero.

The slide action shotgun is the best. The sound of the slide is enough to
defuse a situation. Friend of mine, a cop, a long time ago told me of
backing up another officer in a freeway stop. The previous driver of the
cop car had not loaded the shotgun. He realized this when he jscked the
slide. But the sound of the slide working made the bad guy (armed robbery)
very compliant.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 17:44:32 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

I'm thinking of getting rid of a wheelgun - S&W 25-2 (.45 long colt). Too
expensive to shoot, and I don't want to get involved with handloading. I'm
thinking about a Ruger P90.

Pansy. :)

I guess, but the other 418 hobbies keep me sorta busy, Tom.

Better *Defensive* Handgun
 

Bert Robbins wrote:
"Don White" wrote in message
...

Bert Robbins wrote:

Wrong, you have said numerous times that you will shoot first and ask
questions later if some of the righties appear at your door.

Sounds like a sound policy.


Well, come on over Don, I'm sure Harry can give you my address :)


Huh?